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Xiom Vega China VM

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Benigma View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08/30/2012 at 8:50am
Just noticed that ttnpp added xiom vega china to their stock, has anyone had a try of this yet? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttplayer92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2012 at 12:03pm
yup. look at poster generalSpecific's video regarding vega china review
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2012 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by Benigma Benigma wrote:

Just noticed that ttnpp added xiom vega china to their stock, has anyone had a try of this yet? 


Here you go friend!
Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carmelomaf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2012 at 3:01am

Hi,

 

Yesterdy i got the Vega China VM and I was realy surprise to see a no porose black sponge, Haifu BWI like

 

Nevertheless I put the rubber without tuning together with a tuned Xiom Musa I on my Stratus Powerwood and I played for three hours with two different sparring partner, an attacker and a defender player

 

The rubber plays like a tuned china rubber, quite tacky and very very high grip

 

The tunig is high and for sure better than BWII or Grip-s rubbers

 

After one hour playing the rubber became faster, with more catapult and a little bit softer but still hard

 

The throw angle is quite low, lower than Donic Bluefire M1

 

The spin is very high, compare to bluefire m1, maybe higher

 

The control was very gut, better than bluefire especially in short play and response to the service

 

I was yesterday after training quite satisfied but will tune the rubber to get a little bit softer feeling

 

In sum the rubber is very good “china rubber”, quite expensive but ist not a made in china rubber but a made in germany  and for sure the quality of the topsheet and the bult-in tuning  is realy better than made in china rubber

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Anton Chigurh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/07/2012 at 10:29pm
I just picked up a sheet of XIOM Vega China VM from Paddle Palace. 

Normally I prefer black rubber on my FH when using hard, tacky Chinese rubbers but this time I'm using red. This is for two reasons:

1) Paddle Palace only had one sheet (since they won't be carrying Vega China until February) and it happened to be red. LOL Despite that, they graciously offered to sell me their one remaining sheet. Of course, I could have turned down the red but I wanted to try it because...

2) I've experienced, and heard other people mention as well, that with Tensors the red top sheets seem to be (or at least play) harder than black. I thought this would be a good thing since some of the problems I perceived with Thor's was that the top sheet was too soft (and consequently too reactive at lower speeds, unlike the many Chinese rubbers I've used). 

This red did not solve the problem. The top sheet is much more reactive at lower speeds than any of my Chinese forehand rubbers (TG3 Neo, TopENERGY Soft, Moon Pro tacky, and Blue Whale II). I foresee this as being a problem... but I'll find out once I've had a chance to test it properly. 

It is definitely quicker for less effort than the other Chinese rubbers I use. I'm sure in some cases this may prove helpful but honestly I also foresee this as being another liability. I've really come to appreciate the more "traditional" Chinese rubbers for a variety of reasons, and I no longer personally find their speed to be too slow. Although I did have to notably alter my forehand technique to use them properly, I've found it to be totally worth it. 

In any case, so far I view Vega China to be much like Thor's: It replaces the strengths of the hard/tacky short game with the weaknesses of Tensors (too fast, too reactive, unpredictable) for the trade off of increased speed in the slow and medium gears. 

I guess I'll see if the trade off is worth it to me. To be honest I don't think it will be, but I will report back after I've played with it some more. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carbon TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2012 at 12:24am
How does it directly compare to Vega Pro? I might be interested in recommending it to one of my students.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2012 at 1:38am
DISCLAIMER: Before I give my opinion on this rubber, I first want to say that Paddle Palace was awesome in making it possible for me to try Vega China VM. (Yes, I know other stores carry it but I like buying from PP, for a variety of reasons.) The main point is, the following comments are in no way intended to attenuate the gratitude I have toward PP. You guys rock. 

That being said...

IN MY OPINION... Vega China VM is utter crap. C - R - A - P. <-- That's me spelling crap instead of saying it. Big smile

Compared to a "legit" hard, tacky Chinese rubber, Vega China is inferior in every fathomable way. Sure, it may be slightly faster than some but that just translates into bigger problems. 

All the fears I had in my previous post were verified. The top sheet is highly reactive at low speeds, but all of a sudden at high speeds it freaks out and changes behavior, producing unimpressive spin when you need it most. The feel is horrible. I feel like I'm wearing mittens when I hit forehands. 

I could bitch about this rubber at great length but I'll leave it alone. I should add, though:

I really dig XIOM products. I tried the Vega China on a new Offensive S (ST) blade I purchased to replace my old one (FL). Love that blade. Omega IV Pro is my favorite Tensor BH. I recently bought a Hayabusa Z+ from Fatt that I'm sure to enjoy. XIOM is great.

But XIOM Vega China is junk, IMO. 

It is not a Chinese hard, tacky rubber. Not remotely. It does not deserve the name "China". 

I've long felt that most Chinese attempts at softer, grippy rubbers are fails. So far the converse is true, too. JPN/Euro attempts at hard, tacky rubbers are just god awful. I appreciate the attempts, but perhaps everyone should just stick to producing what they know best. Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gatorling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2012 at 10:26am
That's very odd Anton, my experiences are very different on all fronts.
 Perhaps you are a much more advanced player than I am. For reference I am rated 1400 but believe that I play at 1500-1550 now.
Or maybe it's because I started playing with Tensor rubbers for about 2 years now. I started with Palio Macro Extra, went to Palio Thors and now using Xiom Vega China.
I have no problems dropping the ball very short and just barely over the net when the opponent is attempting to keep it short. I'm able to vary my shot selection from flat hits, to top spin drives, to slower but very spinny loops where the ball dips and bounces 6"-1' from the net. Serves are good and I've learned to love the Vega China. To me it's similar to the Palio Thors except for slightly higher throw. Easier to loop underspin but perhaps not as good on the flat hit.

I have tried H2 Neo and I liked it just fine for the first 3-5 days. After one week it felt like the rubber lost all of its tack and I was left with a slow hard rubber that produced less spin than my very old and damaged Thors.

Maybe there is some trick to get the H2/H3 Neos to keep their tack but I haven't figured it out yet.

Also my experience with soft chinese rubbers has been pretty decent. I used Dawei Inspirit Quattro UL for about 2 years when I was still learning my strokes and techniques. It's a great rubber to learn on and I think you can easily use it into the 1700-1800 range.

That's my 2 cents at least.

Also I use a fairly balanced all wood blade. A W6 which ranges from ALL+ to OFF-. Maybe that' s what separates our experience?

Forehand: Hurricane 3 Provincial #20 sponge
Backhand: Rakza 7 Max
Blade:    Xiom Aria
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gatorling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2012 at 10:29am
To add, I love my Vega China. I feel like the rubber definitely behaves differently depending on how much effort you put into the stroke.
Easy to go from controlling blocks and defensive touch shots to active blocks with lots of speed to slams and switch back to slow spinny loops. I feel like my shot selection is amazing with this rubber.

Took me about 1 week to get used to it.
I played with Palio Thors for about a year before this. Took me 6-10 weeks to really "understand" the Thors. Before that I played with soft Euro style rubbers that were much more forgiving.
Forehand: Hurricane 3 Provincial #20 sponge
Backhand: Rakza 7 Max
Blade:    Xiom Aria
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote decoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2012 at 10:40am
i have a small review of it with a video on the forum .
but to recap VM is tg3 somewhat boosted and a tad lighter. butore like tg3 blie sponhe with the iita nimber with the topsheet treated eucalyptus making it more grippy than tacky
hete a link video link is at the end of the thread http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53723&PN=1

Edited by decoi - 11/09/2012 at 10:54am
Blade: DHS Hurricane Hao
FH: TG3 BS
BH: Xiom Omega 4 Aisa

Blade: Hurricane Hao 2 (656)
Fh: Dhs Gold Arc 3
Bh: Stiga Tour H
http://www.youtube.com/user/decoyla?feature=mhee
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2012 at 10:54am
Originally posted by gatorling gatorling wrote:

To add, I love my Vega China. I feel like the rubber definitely behaves differently depending on how much effort you put into the stroke. Easy to go from controlling blocks and defensive touch shots to active blocks with lots of speed to slams and switch back to slow spinny loops. I feel like my shot selection is amazing with this rubber.Took me about 1 week to get used to it.I played with Palio Thors for about a year before this. Took me 6-10 weeks to really "understand" the Thors. Before that I played with soft Euro style rubbers that were much more forgiving.



This description reminds me very much of Thor's. It was like having 3 different rubbers on your blade. The trick would be to understand under what conditions the rubber transforms from one phase to another.

If it fits your game then awesome. To me it felt as unpredictable as a "we need a talk" talk with my wife.
This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2012 at 11:26am
Originally posted by decoi decoi wrote:

VM is tg3 somewhat boosted and a tad lighter.

For me, this statement is heresy! LOL

TG3 Neo and TopENERGY Soft are the two rubbers I use on my forehand. I can use them interchangeably and I'm quite happy with both. I think that Vega China is nothing like them.

Vega China is a Tensor, not a Chinese rubber. I've went back and forth between Tensors and Chinese rubbers for a long time. Once I stuck with Tensors for a while, my stroke slowly started to change (unbeknownst to me). In short, I developed the "chicken wing" loop. When I finally realized this I gave up Tensors and went back to a Chinese forehand rubber. Because my stroke had changed from using Tensors, I could barely use the hard, tacky rubbers. So over the course of a couple weeks I altered my stroke to accomodate the Chinese rubbers and I'm much happier now.

What I'm getting at is that maybe I would like Thor's better had I not changed my stroke. 

I probably overstated my critique. Maybe my expectations were too high. Vega China is, for me, more usable than other Tensors on the forehand. But, IMO, it simply is NOT a Chinese rubber. Like Thor's, it is 85% Tensor and 15% Chinese hard, tacky rubber. 

It's not "crap" objectively, of course, but to me in comparison to actual Chinese rubbers and for my particular technique it is totally inferior.




Edited by Anton Chigurh - 11/09/2012 at 11:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2012 at 11:34am
I should also add that my playing partners all stated that all my shots were less dangerous with Vega China. 

They felt less heavy and did not kick off the table as hard as with TopENERGY Soft and TG3 Neo (I would switch back and forth between setups). 

So it wasn't just my imagination. I had feedback from multiple people saying that, for me, Vega China was not performing at the same level as my other rubbers.

Also, the feel is terrible. Even if it performed identically to my other rubbers I still wouldn't use it due to that dull, muffled feel. Dead


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debraj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2012 at 12:01pm
anton: this feedback sound too early. how many days you played with this? you have to give some time to break in....these rubbers really need time to break in.

gatorling: use the simple trick of a layer of paraffin oil to get tack back on h2/h3
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2012 at 12:02pm

 Imho this here:

Originally posted by Anton Chigurh Anton Chigurh wrote:

I should also add that my playing partners all stated that all my shots were less dangerous with Vega China.  They felt less heavy and did not kick off the table as hard as with TopENERGY Soft and TG3 Neo.

Is a result of doing this:
Quote (I would switch back and forth between setups). 
I.e. not taking the time to get used to the new rubber. Can't get used to it if you swap back and forth like that.


Edited by Anderni - 11/09/2012 at 2:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2012 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by debraj debraj wrote:

anton: this feedback sound too early. how many days you played with this? you have to give some time to break in....these rubbers really need time to break in.

gatorling: use the simple trick of a layer of paraffin oil to get tack back on h2/h3

This is true. Rubbers (particularly of the hard and tacky kind) need time to break it. Both my TG3 Neo and TopENERGY Soft improve over the first few days of playing. However...

At no point, even when right out of the package and just glued to my racquet (with WBG) do I dislike these two rubbers. Sure they get better, but they're still always "good" to me. This is not the case with Vega China.

You may be correct. Perhaps this Vega China improves with time. The problem is that Vega China's properties are such that I don't want to give it time... if you know what I mean. TG3 Neo and TopENERGY Soft are likable immediately even though they slightly improve in the first week. 

I have someone interested in buying this sheet from me. If I can recoup a reasonable amount of my cash then I will sell it. If not then I may give it another try... but I'm pretty happy with my "go-to" rubbers and not impressed with Vega China in the least so I don't hold out high hopes. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debraj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2012 at 12:51pm
nope i didn't mean hard tacky rubbers take time to break in. these days with factory tuning they play pretty well from beginning.

i'm talking esn rubbers only.  Aurus plays like "schit" on on first few days.. you hit the ball and you have no idea where the ball may go. 

1Q and 1Q xd have horrible low throw on first few days . everything goes to net.

i am seeing this more and more with esn rubbers.. than with modern chinese rubbers. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2012 at 10:00pm
A few things to say:
1) It's ok if Anton doesn't like it. He even said it's not appropriate for his stroke. Not everyone likes tenergy for example but that's ok. I can't think of a better phrase than "different strokes for different folks"
2) Vega China actually does break in. Give it a few weeks and it should feel more consistent
3) Decoi, I've never used TG3, only H3. I do know however they are very comparable so your statement about how Vega China is like a boosted TG3 probably has a lot of truth to it.
Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2012 at 10:18pm
To be fair, if what a few people have said is true, most of my issues with this rubber may have disappeared with time. But since my other favorite FH rubbers don't require such a lengthy break in time with such seemingly dynamic changes required, then I'll just stick with the tried and true.

I received a suggestion that Vega China is blade dependent. I can see this being possible, as Thor's paired well with some blades and very poorly with others. I'm just not emotionally invested enough to EJ blades until I find the perfect fit. Again, my go-to rubbers pair well with every blade I own so they'll do fine.

In addition, even though I'm willing to believe this rubber's performance changes dramatically with the requisite break in time, I find it highly unlikely that its feel will change significantly. And the feel of this rubber is a deal breaker for me. 

That being said, to those who love Vega China VM: Congratulations and I wish you many good games! Smile

XIOM is a great company with many great products. This one just didn't seem to be for me. Knowing my pathetic EJism, I'll likely get bored of my regular rubbers in the next 6 months or so and come back to Vega China, completely forgetting why never gave it a chance, etc. The EJ virus is brutal and relentless. Ouch Wacko Embarrassed

Until that day, this particular sheet is moving on to a new owner. Perhaps he will weigh in with his opinion after he's had a chance to try it out. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dual700 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2012 at 10:08pm
I got this rubber from AC..
I put it on my Xiom Offensive S as my FH and spent about 45 minutes playing with our club's 2300+ level chopper. I mainly use sticky, dead feeling chinese rubber on my FH, sp on my bh. I didn't have hard time adjusting my strokes at all.
It grabs the ball real well against underspin, though the throw I think is a bit lower than my sticky chinese rubber, but no big deal.
My loops were very spinny, my partner commented. Serves were very spinny, he returned my serves to net or out a couple of times. Pushes were good. No surprises or adjustments needed compared to my Galaxy Venus 2. I didn't do that much blocking due to time limitations, but when he did loop, I was able to return his power loops.

I would say that Xiom's effort to create tacky chinese rubber is well accomplished. The rubber feels kinda "dead" when I bounce it around and compared it to my Vega Pro that is pretty bouncy on that blade.

I will test it again on Monday on my main blade: Avalox P700 and play for a few games and report back.

But so far, I am pretty excited that this might the rubber that can replace my "inconsistent qc" chinese rubbers Big smile

Sorry, AC, LOL. LOL (for now)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2012 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by dual700 dual700 wrote:


But so far, I am pretty excited that this might the rubber that can replace my "inconsistent qc" chinese rubbers Big smile

Sorry, AC, LOL. LOL (for now)


Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2012 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by dual700 dual700 wrote:


Sorry, AC, LOL. LOL (for now)

No need to be sorry. Your experience differed from mine, that's all. I'm happy to know you enjoy it (for now). Wink

I also mentioned that I may have come to enjoy it after I gave it more time. That being said...

A couple friends of mine (Chinese tacky rubber users) tried hitting with it. Both of them hit about 10 forehands with it and handed back to me with that minor "disgusted" look on their faces. LOL They wanted nothing more to do with it. 

I don't deny it acts similarly to a Chinese rubber, so it doesn't surprise me that dual700 didn't need to change his stroke. I didn't have to change my stroke either--it did the same thing my other rubbers do, just with less potency. Vega China, to me, just seems to be missing something. Some of what it is missing is feel. I experienced that, my friends experienced that, and some of the reviews in the Chinese forums mentioned that. 

It also seems to be missing something else. I'm just not quite sure what it is. At this point it's unlikely that I'll ever know since I don't have a sheet anymore. But if I start encountering QC issues with my current favorite FH rubber then I may eat crow and revisit this rubber. 

EDIT: Sorry I'm missing a "clever" gif. This totally unrelated and unanimated jpeg will have to do:




Edited by Anton Chigurh - 11/17/2012 at 10:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dual700 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2012 at 12:50am
Now I am VERY curious about Vega China VH (if they ever relase it).
Time to ask Helen Wink
Nice jpeg! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2012 at 1:25am
Originally posted by dual700 dual700 wrote:

Now I am VERY curious about Vega China VH (if they ever relase it).
Time to ask Helen Wink
Nice jpeg! LOL

I've read around here and there and have been led to believe that VH will not be released. 

However, there is another hard, tacky rubber (allegedly) coming from XIOM:

XIOM Tau.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GSOM_GSOM11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2012 at 7:30am
Is Vega China VM harder than Thors? Someone here said that its sponge is a little harder and topsheet is much harder (http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54917&PN=1#675235).
 
Is it really so?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dual700 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2012 at 10:49am
To me, Thor's sponge is at least the same or slightly harder than Vega China, however, the top sheet of Vega is harder, just like what general said. So Vega China gives you the impression that it's a harder rubber overall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dual700 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2012 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Anton Chigurh Anton Chigurh wrote:

Originally posted by dual700 dual700 wrote:

Now I am VERY curious about Vega China VH (if they ever relase it).
Time to ask Helen Wink
Nice jpeg! LOL

I've read around here and there and have been led to believe that VH will not be released. 

However, there is another hard, tacky rubber (allegedly) coming from XIOM:

XIOM Tau.




Yep, Helen confirmed that Cry
From the specs, Xiom Tau is closer to Vega China VM than to VH.

Anyway, I played 3 games last night with Vega China VM. The first game I was still using it on Xiom Offensive S. My opinion still the same, but I can feel that something is "missing" on the feel vs regular sticky Chinese rubber, I can't explain it. Perhaps I wasn't warmed up. Blocks were sporadic. My partner was a 2000+ penhold with S1 and S2. He tried my racket. His shots and loops were much spinnier, but lacked the power because of my sp bh, so my racket was about at least 10 grams lighter. But he liked the rubber.

Then, I glued it to my Xiom ZQ and played my 1900+ friend. I didn't like Xiom ZQ with sticky chinese rubbers, or any hinoki top blades that I own, for that matter. The throw with them hinokis were very low, making blocking harder, but no prob with limba outer.
Most of my loops were in, serves were very spinny, blocks are excellent, I was even confident to counter loop my partners' and made most of them back.
Anyhow, I think I am sticking Vega China VM with my ZQ for good. Perfect pair. Clap
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Anton Chigurh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2012 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by dual700 dual700 wrote:

 
Anyway, I played 3 games last night with Vega China VM. The first game I was still using it on Xiom Offensive S. My opinion still the same, but I can feel that something is "missing" on the feel vs regular sticky Chinese rubber, I can't explain it. Perhaps I wasn't warmed up. Blocks were sporadic. 

Maybe that was part of my problem with the rubber--I was using it on my XIOM Offensive S (limba outer veneer, medium-soft feel). 

I really like that blade, but if Vega China is like Thor's (which for the most part it is), then it probably performs much better on blades with "sharp" feel... outer veneers such as walnut, ebony, koto, etc.


Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2013 at 1:02pm
I have been using this rubber on my backhand for about 6 months. I use it on my Xiom Aigis, flexible blade. I am considering putting it on my forehand also. Pushes great, loops are so easy. Flips, smashes, and drives great 2. I cant understand why more people don't love this rubber?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2013 at 1:18pm
They've been dissuaded by highly subjective opinions such as "Vega China is like Thor's" being presented as a certain fact. ;)    

Edited by Anderni - 01/27/2013 at 1:20pm
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