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zhang jike FH multiball |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Posted: 12/27/2012 at 7:41pm |
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Original link: http://bbs.chinatt.com/tt/dispbbs.asp?boardid=253&id=619265
Continuous FH looping (1 against underspin then 2 against topspin, normal speed) Continuous FH looping (1 against underspin then 2 against topspin, slow speed) Continuous FH looping (half-table against topspin, normal speed) Continuous FH looping (half-table against topspin, slow speed) |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Pro players please give some commentary to these high-res animations. It'll be immensely helpful for noobs like me.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2338 |
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He's so consistent.
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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bumping this so that more members might notice this. Good technique is worth 100000000x more than good equipment ppl!!!!
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Rainer87
Super Member Joined: 09/25/2010 Location: Estonia Status: Offline Points: 316 |
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Thank you blahness!
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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Blah that is pure gold. I play phold but the same general stroke mechanics apply. I have a three monitor setup on my pc and I will have those gifs running 24/7. Not to mention making movie gifs of my own. Don't know why I never thought of this before. Time to give our mirror neurons a workout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron
Thanks.
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DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hope that helped. Still a bit frustrated that most people are only interested in equipment discussions over at this forum....
Edited by blahness - 12/29/2012 at 2:55am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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liulin04
Premier Member Joined: 10/20/2003 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 6347 |
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thank you for the videos, i will be studying the footwork very diligently. Thanks!
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Anton Chigurh
Premier Member Joined: 09/15/2009 Status: Offline Points: 3962 |
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blahness: If it makes you feel any better, I've been studying these vids compulsively and I'd bet many others are too.
While I absolutely agree with you about the over-emphasis on equipment in this forum, in this case I don't think many people are discussing the topic of this particular thread because either it seems straight forward and we all just need to burn it into our minds and then practice it... Or because some of us are such low level players that we don't really even know what we don't know and, hence, don't really have any questions. |
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Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80
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vvk1
Gold Member Joined: 11/14/2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1925 |
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Might be worth studying how the coach feeds the ball - it is not that easy to feed balls so quickly and so consistently. An important skill when practicing multiball.
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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So since Blahness has been asking for people to point important technique oriented details that may be overlooked by people...
Watch the one with the underspin/top/top combo in slowmo. I'll point out some very important details for underspin vs topspin differences.
Alot of beginners are most likely paying attention to how he's hitting the ball, the blade angles hes using, how awesome and easy it would be if they owned his blade with a super boosted blue sponged national rubber and how they should go buy one now with a bottle of boost to magically turn into ZJK... etc etc.
What I would recommend is ignoring all of that for now and watching his legs, weight transfer, height, and balance.
The most important thing that beginners tend to think for underspin is to swing their arms as fast as possible to try to "overcome" the spin but they don't pay attention to their own height and weight transfer. (ie... they don't get low enough (looking down at the ball) and try to compensate just by swinging their arms as fast as possible which is a very bad thing to do consistency wise)
For underspin...
Note how he shifts his weight onto his right leg and lowers himself to gauge the height of the ball. Your leg/thigh should be at a 90 degree angle for underspin as you push off your leg upwards to give your stroke height, turn your waist, and let the arm simply follow (not a arm only wild swing trying to overcome the spin). Note how far back he turns his waist... we'll talk about this later.
If you want even more detail of what he's doing in terms of weight transfer, pay very close attention to his leg muscles contracting.... right leg contracts as he pushes off the leg (pay attention to the 90 degree leg angle for height) then his left leg muscles contract as the weight is transferred.
For Topspin...
For the topspin balls, note that he still stays low but that his leg angle no longer needs to be at 90 degrees (doesn't need height anymore). Instead, it changes to around a 120 degree angle since he wants to push more forward with his legs for a more powerful loop. I mentioned to pay attention to how his waist turn was for underspin... note how he doesn't have to turn his waist back as much for topspin since there's already pace on the ball and he can borrow the power. This is very important as you really don't have to swing as hard as you think since you borrow the existing pace/spin on the ball and simply add maybe 10-30% of your own power. It also lets you recover faster if theres a block/reloop coming back at you
Now after now noticing all of this, if you pay attention to the blade angles/stroke... it's almost essentially exactly the same for both underspin and top... but now you notice how different the legs/waist movement is and how it dictates the direction of your shot *hint hint*.
Best of all...guess what... none of this requires you to purchase some crazy blade, with some special national rubber drenched in booster. It works as long as you are self aware enough of what you're doing which gives you the ability to correct it. Edited by Rack - 12/29/2012 at 1:07pm |
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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yes I believe a important aspect
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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Benigma
Super Member Joined: 03/03/2012 Location: land of hope Status: Offline Points: 240 |
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I believe that the reason for his success is due to his powerful forehand loop- and in particular his short back-swing and follow through which enables him to recover quickly for the next ball. You can see it clearly, he recovers so quickly after hitting the ball which makes him lethal near the table.
Also his backhand loop is quite consistent and powerful and so too is his backhand block. He transitions quite quickly between forehand and backhand- another reason why he is number one. |
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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Important aspects are the swinging knees, staying low all the time. Against backspin, rotate slightly down with body.
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2338 |
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It becomes easy when you do it as often as these guys. But yes I did notice how he fed from the end of the table rather than the side. I'll note his technique for my next session. |
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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Things that grabbed my attention
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DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
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Anton Chigurh
Premier Member Joined: 09/15/2009 Status: Offline Points: 3962 |
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Nice breakdown, Rack.
One thing I found interesting is, although I'm aware of the necessary weight transfer from the right foot to the left foot, I noticed that instead of standing "flatfooted" as he transfers his weight, he's literally jumping from one foot to the other for each shot. He's almost never stationary. It's the same principle of weight transfer, just taken to a greater extreme than I realized. I would imagine it probably results in greater mobility, too. |
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Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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Sure no prob. I would say you don't really have to jump (can become a bad habit)... but pushing off with the legs to initiate the stroke is very important. It's kinda why alot of the great TT players have huge legs/thighs.... even the women.
But yeah, main goal for the new players is for them to understand that its not all about how hard they swing the arms... has to be a whole body harmony transferring the energy through the body and into the ball while still being able to have enough muscle control to stay loose.
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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Anton Chigurh
Premier Member Joined: 09/15/2009 Status: Offline Points: 3962 |
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A problem I have is too often finding myself flat-footed. Although I can see how "jumping" can lead to bad habits, I'm nonetheless going to try to implement it in my game a bit more to see if it increases my mobility. For those who may already be unstable and erratic in their game, I can see how jumping might exacerbate it. But perhaps for those (like myself) who are too often "planted", this jumping might improve mobility. My two biggest problems right now (that I'm aware of anyway) is staying low enough (which I've recently improved by simply spreading my legs wider) and too often "rooting" myself in place, which I'm hoping a more mobile stroke like this might help. I try to "bounce" between shots--basically from my old kickboxing training --but unfortunately once the rally gets going and increases in intensity I find that I forget to keep bouncing. Maybe including a "bounce" in my stroke itself will help. (Getting a good read on serves is another struggle, but that is an issue unrelated to this thread.) Anyway, assuming anything I just said makes sense, I'm definitely open to any thoughts/suggestions. Being 90% self-taught and being without a coach for the last 2 years, I've basically plateaued at the ~1700 level. I'm looking to bump my game up a bit... if possible given my many constraints. Edited by Anton Chigurh - 12/29/2012 at 3:03pm |
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Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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In terms of being rooted, it's most likely because you're ball watching after you've completed your shot to see what happens instead of readying for the next shot. It's a very common problem.
One suggestion is to force yourself to always move right after you hit your shot. The majority of the time, you will need to force yourself to instinctively do a half to full hop backwards to set yourself for the next shot. For example if you step in for a short push, you have to hop back to recover to ready. Or if you play an attacking topspin, you always hop back in case its blocked to be ready to reattack if necesary. If you force yourself to move like this... you should always be on your toes and thus more mobile (can't really hop back on your heels). If you're still having trouble recovering, you'll need to mix slower shots instead of playing fast drives too much thus giving you more time to recover.
As for staying low, one of the best advices given to me to fix this is make it a "self drill" to always try to match the height of the ball to your eye level as soon as the opponent hits a shot. Try not to do this by just bending your back though (can cause back injuries)... you want to lower and raise yourself via your legs (just like a squat) and just match the balls arc as its coming at you. This one takes some time to get use to because you get quite a workout from it but once it becomes ingrained in your muscle memory, your level should rise since it forces you to move to the trajectory of the ball and match it's height increasing the buffer you have to decide what shot you want to play as well as helping your timing when hitting.
Here's a great example (with Slow Mo) of what I mean by trying to follow the balls height... again by ZJK. Watch how he lowers himself via his legs near eye level as the ball is coming.
Edited by Rack - 12/29/2012 at 8:07pm |
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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Anton Chigurh
Premier Member Joined: 09/15/2009 Status: Offline Points: 3962 |
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Definitely. I do this a lot. Part of it is because I'm always trying to tweak my technique and I'm observing whether my manipulation worked (i.e., did the ball land on the table).
Regarding the rest of your suggestions, the good thing is that it is stuff I'm constantly considering... so the fact that it isn't "new" is a good sign because I'm on the right track. The bad thing is, no matter how long I've been aware of it, it is extremely hard to turn the mental knowledge into physical habit. Given that I don't have anyone with which to do multi-ball, etc., it's really hard to break old habits and establish new ones... especially when my playing partners primarily insist on playing games. I think, more than anything, this is the problem. I think I have a basic idea of what I need to do. I just need to find a way to practice it so that it actually manifests in my gameplay consistently. Thanks for the input! As usual, good stuff. |
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Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I don't know how to fix this, one way is to avoid "fixed placement" exercises, even when you're doing fixed placement exercises hop once when the ball is hit towards you to jump towards the correct position. So even when I'm practising against the robot, I always hop at least once to get into position, then hop again to neutral position after I hit the ball (even with simple pushing exercises). The key is to be in control of your centre of gravity and use your centre of gravity to guide your legs. Also you can do a lot of small hopping exercises when not at the table to train up your legs, I find that it helps a lot (it is not easy when you do it in high frequency) It's not easy to fix if you don't have a robot or multiball partner....
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Thanks Rack for adding these valuable observations to the videos! The pushing off with the legs thing is really not that easy, requires a lot of leg strength, and it seems that the stronger your legs, the more powerful your shots become (almost automatically if you already know the technique). No wonder the TT players focus so much on leg press exercises at the gym.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I'll add some further observations with the waist movement.
Zhang Jike has one of the shortest backswings for the FH in the game. Look at how close his elbow is to his waist during the backswing, that shows that there is almost no arm backswing relative to the waist. The backswing should be initiated by the waist, not by the arm. This increases the speed (which determines how fast you initiate your stroke) and also shortens recovery time. Furthermore you can control your stroke fully using your waist (effortless and stable) instead of your arm (tiring and unstable). |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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Definitely short backswing and stroke, complements his backhand stroke size.
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HowToPlayChineseLoop
Super Member Joined: 02/06/2012 Location: 0 Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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It's not easy to fix if you don't have a robot or multiball partner....
No money to buy a table, no money to rent a coach, no money to buy a robot, no parnter... shadow it when we sleep... :)
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