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Forehand Loop. Please advices!

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    Posted: 04/02/2013 at 2:37am
This is the video when I train with my partner. Please advices! This is my old topic: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=56147&title=i-need-help-to-correct-forehand-counterhit-loop. Because I'm not much time to practice, so I have not fixed some bugs. I hope you show me more mistakes! thanks very much!



Edited by dvdbka - 04/02/2013 at 2:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvdbka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2013 at 2:39am
Please tell me why I miss ball so much? and My stance right? ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metalone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2013 at 2:54am
It is a little difficult to see why you are missing, you need to change the camera angle so the ball and contact can be seen better.
But from what I see, you are too intent on hitting the perfect stroke with repetition and your overlooking the fact that the ball position changes relative to where you are trying to hit from. In other words, the ball height is changing when you make contact and with a fast fixed stroke, the ball will come off the blade at different heights.
I would suggest slowing down and watch what the ball is doing and just get it on the other side of the net / table. It is curious, when a ball is hit and you must move out of position, your movement and shots are more fluid, seems more relaxed.
The faster you swing, the more precise the contact needs to be and until you judge in / out and side to side ball movement and adjust accordingly, you need to slow down.
Just my .02.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvdbka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2013 at 3:17am
Thank Metalone! Did you mean I should make slow movements to watch the ball?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2013 at 11:25am
I agree with metalone. Some strokes are the same even if the incoming ball is a bit different from the previous. Remember, you always need to adjust to how the ball is coming at you. Focus less on the "perfect" stroke, and instead slow down and focus on putting the ball back with a good stroke. Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Not everything needs to be hit with a very strong loop. A really good blocker will easily destroy you.

And you're still too tense. Relax!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2013 at 11:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metalone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2013 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by dvdbka dvdbka wrote:

Thank Metalone! Did you mean I should make slow movements to watch the ball? 

I meant to say, slow down how fast you swing and rotate, until you get better timing - this includes moving your body in, out, and sideways so your contact for the path of the ball is consistent. If you never change your stroke and you contact the ball at different places after it bounces ie on the rise, at the peak or when the ball is going down, the ball will come off your racket at a different arc.
Contacting the ball on the rise will keep the ball lower, at the peak it will be higher and when it is dropping even higher. When you watch pros using the exact same stroke, it is because the ball placement that the blocker is making is the same and part of this is how the pro is making his shots consistent - same spin, power etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2013 at 1:33pm
You're missing because you haven't hit enough balls, that's all. Looping is very complex for the human it takes years to get good at it. Keep hitting balls
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2013 at 1:52pm
Your form is really good and you remind me ohhgourami's thread:
I remember people were bashing about how good he wants to look and I thought it was borderline ridiculous as it was just the will to do it right which in my opinion gives the best chances to build a strong base on top of which one will build a very strong fh and game.
You 2 have the same problem: excellent form and not enough practice as bluebucket underlines.
To answer your question I could suggest you slightly bounce once or twice times after the ball is gone from your paddle so you can from the last bounce slightly adjust your position and get addition al kick at the same time. When focusing on doing so, try to put less force into your stroke so you will really focus on your legs and body position only to let go your shoulder/arm/forearm at 65-70% of their maximum speed/power; the goal is to keep to ball on the table so you find a groove, a rhythm, and feel like a fluid dancer.
I really think you have potential for a devastating and consistent fh loop!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2013 at 8:52pm
My critique has more to do with how you are training than with your stroke technique. There has been lots of good advice with regard to your stroke mechanics. The problem is that you aren't getting enough repetition. To me this a very poor way to practice. In the 4 mins of the vid you maybe hit about 60 balls. You rarely hit more than three in a row before you had to stop and pick up balls.

Imo you should do most of your initial training with multiball instead, as you could have hit double or triple the amount of balls in the same time frame. Then you can try to incorporate the different suggestions made by forum members because the person feeding doesn't have to worry about blocking the next ball back. Once you get your stroke more under control you can go back to loop/block on the table. 

Example: In the 45 seconds of this vid WH hit 26 shots. That's almost the same amount you hit in 2 minutes. Note this is not some crazy footwork drill. He is pausing between each stroke.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2013 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

My critique has more to do with how you are training than with your stroke technique. There has been lots of good advice with regard to your stroke mechanics. The problem is that you aren't getting enough repetition. To me this a very poor way to practice. In the 4 mins of the vid you maybe hit about 60 balls. You rarely hit more than three in a row before you had to stop and pick up balls.

Imo you should do most of your initial training with multiball instead, as you could have hit double or triple the amount of balls in the same time frame. Then you can try to incorporate the different suggestions made by forum members because the person feeding doesn't have to worry about blocking the next ball back. Once you get your stroke more under control you can go back to loop/block on the table. 

Example: In the 45 seconds of this vid WH hit 26 shots. That's almost the same amount you hit in 2 minutes. Note this is not some crazy footwork drill. He is pausing between each stroke.
good stuff!!!! I like the angle from which you see him play: maximizing the number of balls hit per minute and for sure there is little beeter than multiball practice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvdbka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2013 at 12:07am
Thanks everyone! I will buy balls to practice multiball follow your advices. Do you thing I need to fix:
- More relax?
- Smaller Backswing?
- Transfer weight by stronger push leg?
.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2013 at 1:14am
Originally posted by dvdbka dvdbka wrote:

Thanks everyone! I will buy balls to practice multiball follow your advices. Do you thing I need to fix:
- More relax?
- Smaller Backswing?
- Transfer weight by stronger push leg?
.....


I honestly don't see any problem with your backswing..mine is even further back and it's fine..

And that is some crazy wang hao forehand Shocked


Edited by davidwhang - 04/03/2013 at 1:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PP Dui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2013 at 1:25am
Use your feet to find the proper spot.
Turn your waist instead of pulling your arm.
Use your waist and body to control your arm u wud miss less.
Try to hit at highest point of the ball.
Also, imagine you accelerate your car while putting another foot on the brake, that helps you to get ready for next shot, and get your shot under control.  Even pros miss their opportunity shots cos they forget the brake part totally and go wild.


Edited by PP Dui - 04/03/2013 at 1:37am
funplay, enjoy the game
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boaspirit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2013 at 1:34am
imo you focusing too much on speed and not enough of just getting the ball back on the table, do you see how much you are moving around in the vid?when looping having solid ground to generate power is important. as V-Griper Said multiball is a better way to practice loop conistently as it gives you more time to get into stable position, after that if you wanna move more when you hit just tell your partner to speed up. (as you can see in wang hao multiball practice even he miss when he has to move around that much)

another reason you might not be getting as much hit is because your partner isn't looping back it is much easier to practice counter loop if your partner also loop because you can use his own spin against him.  well in my case i find that its easier for me that way ie(im terrible at playing blockers, lol)


Edited by boaspirit - 04/03/2013 at 1:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2013 at 10:01am
you look like someone who hasn't done enough close-table counterhitting practice and started looping too early. To be precise, you haven't started "slow" yet. You're trying to spin and hit way too hard, that's why you're missing so much. You don't have the proper ball feeling yet. Go back to your basic close-table counterhitting, ensure that you always have a good feeling for the ball (make sure that you get a solid hit on the ball, and try to use a relaxed "guiding" motion to guide the ball wherever you want it to, and don't start looping just yet. 

Once you have a LOT (and I mean a lot, at least 10,000 repetitions) of practice, you'll start to develop a very good ball feeling (as long as you have proper technique!), then it's just a really simple manner to transition into looping. 

Look at this video to have an idea of what I'm talking about. Practice this a million times! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0YZt_ybNlg

Your loop, once you have that basics, would be much more relaxed, fluid and you would develop the feel of "accelerating" into the ball that you lack now (your loop is pretty much constant speed from start to end, it should start really slow and end really fast like a whip). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2013 at 10:10am
also look at this, how they slowly build up from counterhitting to looping. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1T2qdJXYaY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2013 at 10:41am
Also you're too dead on your feet. You shouldn't be on your heels all the time. For FH it's like that, when the ball is coming, push off your left feet, and turn your waist so that your belly button faces sideways while simultaneously landing fully on your right foot(full landing, including the heels for right foot, while your left foot should be on the balls, with your heels off the ground at this moment). Then you turn your body to hit the ball so that your belly button now faces the front, while simultaneously pushing off the inner side (basically the whole left portion) of your right foot (this is an enormous source of power, use it!). Then after you hit the ball, you would have a lot of forward momentum, don't stop the momentum abruptly (like what you're kinda doing now), but follow through, landing with your centre of gravity distributed evenly between both feet (in case you need to move to the left), and then be prepared to kick off or push off with your left feet for the next FH. 

When u see the ball coming, you need to plant your right feet in the best position for you to hit your FH (you always have to find this position, this position changes with the pace and direction (and spin!) of the incoming ball, when u see good players play, they will look as if that they are "finding" the ball using their right leg. 

Also try jumping and running about frequently, to increase the bounciness of your legs, it will help your looping. Sometimes I intentionally speed run through crowds to train up my agility and flexibility and springiness in my foot, it's fun training... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2013 at 12:54pm
My advice is that you're not taking into account the change in spin you are putting on the ball.  The blocker isn't doing anything but reflecting your shot back.  But you are adding more spin and speed with every stroke.  So every ball coming back to you is different. 

As you get further into the rally move a little bit more back as you put more power into the shot.  This will let have more time to see what other spins you've put on the ball and position yourself better.

Your blocker is not that consistent either, so you have to take into account his limitations as well.  The harder you hit the harder it will be for him to control the ball just right so you can do 100 hit continuously.  Control is the key...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boaspirit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2013 at 12:22am
Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

My advice is that you're not taking into account the change in spin you are putting on the ball.  The blocker isn't doing anything but reflecting your shot back.  But you are adding more spin and speed with every stroke.  So every ball coming back to you is different. 

As you get further into the rally move a little bit more back as you put more power into the shot.  This will let have more time to see what other spins you've put on the ball and position yourself better.

Your blocker is not that consistent either, so you have to take into account his limitations as well.  The harder you hit the harder it will be for him to control the ball just right so you can do 100 hit continuously.  Control is the key...

^
^
this! and like i say when you found your sweet spot stay around that area and you will see that your gonna get alot more hit back.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote popperlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2013 at 2:26am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

you look like someone who hasn't done enough close-table counterhitting practice and started looping too early. To be precise, you haven't started "slow" yet. You're trying to spin and hit way too hard, that's why you're missing so much. You don't have the proper ball feeling yet. Go back to your basic close-table counterhitting, ensure that you always have a good feeling for the ball (make sure that you get a solid hit on the ball, and try to use a relaxed "guiding" motion to guide the ball wherever you want it to, and don't start looping just yet. 

Once you have a LOT (and I mean a lot, at least 10,000 repetitions) of practice, you'll start to develop a very good ball feeling (as long as you have proper technique!), then it's just a really simple manner to transition into looping. 

Look at this video to have an idea of what I'm talking about. Practice this a million times! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0YZt_ybNlg

Your loop, once you have that basics, would be much more relaxed, fluid and you would develop the feel of "accelerating" into the ball that you lack now (your loop is pretty much constant speed from start to end, it should start really slow and end really fast like a whip). 

I think you nailed it blahness. 
A quality loop is fricken complicated, you could practice for 10, 20, 100 years, and never get it(garage style 4 life). To make things easier for OP, get a very high level coach or start with a very slow setup(slow blade/markv/h3). Garage swings don't work on slow setups, so you won't have to guess what you're doing wrong, you'll know instantly when you fu*ked up the technique.
Another option is to become a chopper. You can beat everyone in the club without looping :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2013 at 4:57am
You take the paddle back too late because you stop too long at the end of the stroke; therefore, you are forced to rush through the next stroke, not giving yourself enough time to measure the ball and hit precisely.

In addition, when you take the paddle back too late, you instinctively compensate by bringing it back fast because you have to catch up to the ball. This is counterproductive to generating racket head speed in the forward swing --- you're essentially first bringing the racket back and down really fast, then stopping it before reversing direction and swinging it forward and up. What you're doing would be equivalent to lunging backwards before exploding forwards when sprinting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2013 at 7:17am
Your loop is fine for the kind of game you seem to like to play at mid distance  - just get better at varying the speed.  If you want to play closer to the table, you will have to shorten it and learn a counter hit.

Edited by NextLevel - 04/05/2013 at 7:17am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvdbka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2013 at 3:47am
Blahness: Is this your training video: http://www.youtube.com/user/TTblahness ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2013 at 8:10am
Originally posted by dvdbka dvdbka wrote:

Blahness: Is this your training video: http://www.youtube.com/user/TTblahness ?

Hi dvdbka, it is indeed my training video from June 2012, I made a LOT of improvements since then (especially on the FH side, on the use of the legs (right leg pushing off), limiting the arm backswing, instead using the waist completely for backswing, and changes to my FH grip, applying those principles to my pendulum and reverse pendulum serve, short game footwork, increased spin in BH pushing) until I injured my ankle in January, I'm still letting my ankles rest before I start training again. 

The latest video, you can see that it's a very relaxed counterhit (the FH is still too big a motion at this time).

You can see my improvements if you compare it with my previous videos (when I sucked horrendously!). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2013 at 12:32pm
Blahness,

If you want my advice on the FH, I would say let your elbow get further away from your body.  Your FH stroke is mostly your elbow pivoting your forearm in the video.  Which is just light counter hitting for people who want to a training wall for other players.  You want to be a player, not a training wall.

You also cross your center line finishing your FH stroke to the opposite shoulder.  That allows the paddle to cross your field of vision.  Not a good idea in a fast sport like TT.

The more textbook form is to allow the paddle to rise to about your forehead level and to strike the ball when it is further away from your body, allowing your elbow to be extended more.  Thus, the upward rotation is mostly the shoulder doing the work.  

Once you figure out how to use your shoulders properly.  Your FH will improve drastically. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jt99sf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2013 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by dvdbka dvdbka wrote:

Please tell me why I miss ball so much? and My stance right? ...

Some coaching sessions would help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2013 at 12:37am
Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

Blahness,If you want my advice on the FH, I would say let your elbow get further away from your body.  Your FH stroke is mostly your elbow pivoting your forearm in the video.  Which is just light counter hitting for people who want to a training wall for other players.  You want to be a player, not a training wall.You also cross your center line finishing your FH stroke to the opposite shoulder.  That allows the paddle to cross your field of vision.  Not a good idea in a fast sport like TT.The more textbook form is to allow the paddle to rise to about your forehead level and to strike the ball when it is further away from your body, allowing your elbow to be extended more.  Thus, the upward rotation is mostly the shoulder doing the work.   Once you figure out how to use your shoulders properly.  Your FH will improve drastically. 



Hehe that video was almost 1 year ago, and i have indeed moved my elbow further away (which solved the crossing over problem) and started using my upper arm and shoulders in my loop. I believe it was you who told me this when I posted that video for comment last year and i have made the corrections just after that. :) I also applied those principles to the BH stroke too( the shoulder contribution) and it helped a lot!
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BH: D05

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