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poll: why do Chinese pros use tacky rubber?

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Poll Question: Why do Chinese pro players use a tacky rubber on forehand?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
6 [9.09%]
33 [50.00%]
23 [34.85%]
4 [6.06%]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roger_rabbit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/2013 at 4:53pm
I've tried quite a few DHS H3 rubbers(comm., prov., and nat.)

The H3 nat. version is only slight tacky, right out of the box.

Only the commercial and some prov. version are tacky.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/2013 at 5:28pm
And again the commercial national is not a CNT rubber, its only a garunteed good cut from the normal commercial batch, nothing more
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/2013 at 5:38pm
I admit to not knowing why Chinese team do what they do (other people here probably don't know either).  However, the argument that they use a certain type of rubber because they always have strikes me as quite plausible, and it is a little deeper than Seguso suggests.  These rubbers in my experience are really different from European or Japanese rubbers.  So if you grow up playing with Chinese rubbers, it really does shape the way you play.  It has to.  And if your game is shaped from an early age to play with that rubber, than moving forward, that class of rubber will also be the best for your game.  A player could certainly change technique to play with a Japanese rubber on the forehand side.  But why in the world would anyone do it if it is not necessary?  Now add to that the fact that DHS is a major force in Chinese table tennis economically, there now becomes even less reason.  Now if you haven't grown up playing with that class of DHS rubbers, it is pretty tough to start. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/2013 at 7:01pm
I voted #2. For sure a boosted hurricane used most efficiently will produce deadlier loops than anything else. The forehand is always stronger under optimal conditions for all strokes. Maximizing fh strokes means great footwork. Chinese players learn optimal footwork from young age so they can produce more fh strokes and prefer to do so with boosted H. Last but not least, cost!!! H is cheaper than euro or jap rubbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piligrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/2013 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

H is cheaper than euro or jap rubbers.


commercial version yes but provincial and national version more expensive.
also you have to buy booster for H. all together cost even more than Tenergy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/2013 at 7:23pm
I've got to go with 2 and 3. Too many resources have been applied to player development in CN to leave rubber playing characteristics up to chance. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geswin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/2013 at 7:56pm
National version blue sponge was more than 100$. Another national version in table tennis 11 is 60ish Euro, and i think it was orange sponge.
It was way more than euro jap rubber if you buy the commercial national version. And remember the dianchi booster is also freaking expensive.Cry

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roger Stillabower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/2013 at 9:07pm
I don't understand why the H3 blue sponge #22 or the orange sponge #20 prov. and nat. are so expensive ? After all they are made in China, and China is famous for mass producing. These rubbers cost more than Tenergy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/2013 at 9:27pm
There is no such thing prov or nat hurricane. It's all a scam. There is only one hurricane well boosted or badly boosted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rick_ys_ho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/2013 at 10:51pm
The best persons to answer this question are of course Chinese professionals.

Based on what I heard from Chinese professional players and coaches directly and indirectly, #2 is the closest answer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/2013 at 11:11pm
Now we can see how popular I am - I gave almost the same answer Tinykin gave, but everyone quotes Tinkykin and ignores my response Ermm...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/2013 at 11:15pm
Indeed you did.  I hadn't scanned up that far.  Anyway, I agree with you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 12:18am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

There is no such thing prov or nat hurricane. It's all a scam. There is only one hurricane well boosted or badly boosted.


i played with 729ritc  provincial version truly way better
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote kurokami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 1:18am
Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

And again the commercial national is not a CNT rubber, its only a garunteed good cut from the normal commercial batch, nothing more

This is correct. That stuff being sold by online retailers as national isn't real national. 

There is real provincial and national though. 

Wang Liqin described this in an interview when talking about his using Hurricane 2 that it's important to use tacky rubber to be able to sufficiently bite into the ball when serving and when attacking at close-range. 

I do agree having played both Tenergy and Hurricane, it's easier to make close-range loops with Hurricane. With Tenergy, the swing trajectory is very horizontal and it takes a certain degree of friction to catch the ball. With Hurricane, it's a lot easier to bite the ball. Similarly, with serving, the slow speed but high spin makes it better for serving than say, Tenergy.

whoever wrote the "DHS pays them" is probably close too. Chinese rubbers are cheaper to make and cheaper to readily supply. They wouldn't want to copy Japanese/German mechanical sponge, Chinesse rubbers being traditionally tacky inverted rubbers, especially given the Japanese-Chinese dialectic.


Edited by kurokami - 12/16/2013 at 1:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurokami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 1:20am
p.s. somebody bought that used H3 Neo National from me on this forum. That was from Wang Liqin and handed to me out of his sports bag. It's only good for testing at this point as having only one guaranteed authentic sheet at the time, I really stretched out it's playing time. They could comment on how distinctively different it feels than commercial. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chronos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 1:31am
I saw a chinese site that did high-resolution photos of the pips of the hurricane rubbers, and compared commercial and national.  National pips looked noticeably different, were "cleaner" if that makes sense.  I wish I remembered where I saw it.  So I don't think its true that they come from the same batch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurokami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 1:50am
Originally posted by chronos chronos wrote:

I saw a chinese site that did high-resolution photos of the pips of the hurricane rubbers, and compared commercial and national.  National pips looked noticeably different, were "cleaner" if that makes sense.  I wish I remembered where I saw it.  So I don't think its true that they come from the same batch.

Traditional rubber making techniques will produce the best quality in the center and progressively cheaper going outwards. afaik, chinese manufacturers still use traditional rubber manufacturing techniques even with machine processes now.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter234 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 2:04am
Originally posted by chronos chronos wrote:

I saw a chinese site that did high-resolution photos of the pips of the hurricane rubbers, and compared commercial and national.  National pips looked noticeably different, were "cleaner" if that makes sense.  I wish I remembered where I saw it.  So I don't think its true that they come from the same batch.
Now it is quite difficult to purchase DHS h3 provincial rubbers from Suppliers.  DHS manufacter often arrange their products to their sports stores from different areas in China so that buyers from different cities can get similar and low price and service, also in avoid Monopoly.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurokami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 2:11am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

There is no such thing prov or nat hurricane. It's all a scam. There is only one hurricane well boosted or badly boosted.

fatt, you should know better :) (seattle, wa)

just ask fan yi yong when he gets back from europe. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stefashka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 3:30am
Serving/receiving, short game and opening are the most important parts in TT and tacky hard-sponged rubbers on FH together with good footwork help on every of these parts. It's easier to do short serves with great spin or without it, it easy to keep the ball short and low during serve receive and short game, it's very easy to make a reliable opening loop so the only thing you should think about is what you should do if the opponent returns the ball. 

I don't believe it's really needed to play with tacky rubbers from the childhood - I believe it's just a myth. What is not a myth is good players who are being taught good footwork and getting the ball on the rise on at the top of the bounce have no problem playing with any kind of rubber - taky/non-tacky/pips. Modern Euro/Japanese rubbers are more forgiving than tacky and pips so they add some power to shots made from non-optimal position and this is the main reason non-Chinese coaches are not going to change their opinion about using tacky rubbers on FH.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 4:08am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Now we can see how popular I am - I gave almost the same answer Tinykin gave, but everyone quotes Tinkykin and ignores my response Ermm...
 Sorry I did the same as Baal, I only scroll up to Tiny's post and thought he nailed it, but you are saying essentially the same.Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king_pong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 6:15am
Originally posted by stefashka stefashka wrote:

Serving/receiving, short game and opening are the most important parts in TT and tacky hard-sponged rubbers on FH together with good footwork help on every of these parts. It's easier to do short serves with great spin or without it, it easy to keep the ball short and low during serve receive and short game, it's very easy to make a reliable opening loop so the only thing you should think about is what you should do if the opponent returns the ball. 
 
stefashka said it here and Rack really nailed it on the first page with his answer quoted from Chinese National coach Wu JingPing.   I chose #4, but the truth is actually #2-4.  If learned properly, hard/tacky rubber has more advantages in the earlier stages of development of a point than it's euro/jap mechanical complement (for offensive play).   

      The Chinese look at table tennis much like how the Wing Chun martial artist looks at physical encounter -- the longer combat takes place, the more likely something bad can happen -- so it behooves us to end our engagement (read: "win") at the earliest possible juncture.   Examine the usual development of a point -  1) Service,  2) receive,  3) opening strike/flip/loop,  4) counter, near-table attack  5) mid-distance rally, 6) far from table rally.    As stefashka already stated, hard/tacky rubber has great advantages in phases 1-3 (the most important aspects of the game), but with proper ball-reading and footwork, hard/tacky rubber surpasses mechanical-grip rubber for FH in all phases (except for perhaps smashing the lob, and lobbing itself Smile).   This is due to what Rack claims Wu Jingping has said, "If you use Euro/Jap rubbers, the ball must sink into the sponge and dwell so that you have more control over the spin and speed of the incoming ball."   This slows your timing down a bit having to allow the ball to sink into the sponge, compress and rebound out.  With the softer mechanical rubber, at the table brush strokes become less potent, whereas a brush stroke with harder/tackier rubber can be a laser like loop-kill (Nothing made me more aware of this than switching my FH to mechanical-grip rubber last year).





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 8:32am
Originally posted by king_pong king_pong wrote:

Originally posted by stefashka stefashka wrote:

Serving/receiving, short game and opening are the most important parts in TT and tacky hard-sponged rubbers on FH together with good footwork help on every of these parts. It's easier to do short serves with great spin or without it, it easy to keep the ball short and low during serve receive and short game, it's very easy to make a reliable opening loop so the only thing you should think about is what you should do if the opponent returns the ball. 
 
stefashka said it here and Rack really nailed it on the first page with his answer quoted from Chinese National coach Wu JingPing.   I chose #4, but the truth is actually #2-4.  If learned properly, hard/tacky rubber has more advantages in the earlier stages of development of a point than it's euro/jap mechanical complement (for offensive play).   

      The Chinese look at table tennis much like how the Wing Chun martial artist looks at physical encounter -- the longer combat takes place, the more likely something bad can happen -- so it behooves us to end our engagement (read: "win") at the earliest possible juncture.   Examine the usual development of a point -  1) Service,  2) receive,  3) opening strike/flip/loop,  4) counter, near-table attack  5) mid-distance rally, 6) far from table rally.    As stefashka already stated, hard/tacky rubber has great advantages in phases 1-3 (the most important aspects of the game), but with proper ball-reading and footwork, hard/tacky rubber surpasses mechanical-grip rubber for FH in all phases (except for perhaps smashing the lob, and lobbing itself Smile).   This is due to what Rack claims Wu Jingping has said, "If you use Euro/Jap rubbers, the ball must sink into the sponge and dwell so that you have more control over the spin and speed of the incoming ball."   This slows your timing down a bit having to allow the ball to sink into the sponge, compress and rebound out.  With the softer mechanical rubber, at the table brush strokes become less potent, whereas a brush stroke with harder/tackier rubber can be a laser like loop-kill (Nothing made me more aware of this than switching my FH to mechanical-grip rubber last year).






 I would agree with all of the above. To the question as to why Chinese players use the said equipment though, I think its more to do with evolving around the rubbers available to the Chinese players historically. For instance, if through the 1970's and 80's Tacky Chinese rubbers had only been available to European players, and Chinese players had only Euro style rubbers, would the Chinese game have evolved differently ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTFrenzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 9:51am
I think we are not asking the right questions. 

Western players tend to play with chinese boosted rubbers more and more (some of them for experimental purposes most of the because they wont to mimic the chinese)but they dont have the required technique.

What we should ask instead is :

1) Would chinese players play worse same or even better with eurojap rubbers?

2) In a perfect quality shot (judging it with pro players level criteria and not learning players like us) how much participation % is there from technique and how much from equipment.

The second question is a very long discussion.

Chinese philosophy/mentality/training focuses on military discipline thousands repetitions till perfection but lacks creativity. 

In a forehand loop they use more body energy than europeans do.

Perfect FH attack = Optimum Speed + Spin + Control+Accuracy(all at the sane time) + Recovery time if possible depending on the situation

European rubbers create speed of their own but lack control & accuracy. This "disadvantage" is minimized by using smaller strokes and relaxed play

Chinese rubbers on the other hand are pretty slow (a boosted h3 is 2/3 as bouncy as the tenergy) and spinny, the body and footwork is what gives the required energy/speed to the ball. 

The chinese have perfected their technique which is perfectly balanced in a FH stroke by the spinny tacky rubber.

This doesnt mean that eurojap rubbers are inferior, chinese win because they have perfect basic strokes/footwork. Only when a player has perfect  basics he is allowed to develop his game and add more creativity to it in China. 

I think that if a junior player with 100%  the feeling and play of waldner starts executing the infamous tricky shots in a , he will be punished most likely because he didnt execute the strokes "by the book" no matter how effective his tricky shots are. 

I am not absolute in this statement but I believe that chinese players with creativity can be damaged in the hands of a coach with military philosophy

Ending, I  believe it is mostly a matter of technique not the rubbers. It is clear that in the short game and serving chinese rubbers are more easy to play, but adding more spin doesnt mean that you will win the point.

Besides, waldner appelgren, persson, primorac,ryu seung min, oh san eun,samsonov, kim taek soo, have excellent short play and they all use euro rubbers.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote puppy412 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 10:01am
you only focus on players from the chinese national team....
what about for example chuang chih yuan?
he's chinese and uses tenergy both sides.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 10:45am
Originally posted by puppy412 puppy412 wrote:

you only focus on players from the chinese national team....
what about for example chuang chih yuan?
he's chinese and uses tenergy both sides.

Because only CNT players have reliable access to national-quality hurricanes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 11:11am
Originally posted by puppy412 puppy412 wrote:

you only focus on players from the chinese national team....
what about for example chuang chih yuan?
he's chinese and uses tenergy both sides.

he played with 729 sst  after the glue ban switched to t05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTFrenzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 11:37am
chuang chih yuan, started training in taipei but most of his development was in Europe. So he cannot be considereda "chinese style player".

I believe if he wanted to he could easily buy or arrange a sponsorship with DHS it is not a matter of CNT only.

Most of the cnt national H3 sellers were former players or have good relationships with DHS or the CNT so the access to a national h3 rubber is not so difficult.

Besides there isnt so much HUGE difference between national and commercial rubbers.

National rubbers are taken from the center of the batch and are more consistent in performance than provincial or commercial

If the rubbers were named "center batch" (national) "inner perimeter batch" (provincial) and "outer perimeter batch" (commercial)

people wouldnt  make so much fuss about it, and of course they wouldnt be so expensive. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote puppy412 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 11:54am
another example of chinese not using tacky is li ping.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berkeleydoctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2013 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by TTFrenzy TTFrenzy wrote:

I think we are not asking the right questions. 

Western players tend to play with chinese boosted rubbers more and more (some of them for experimental purposes most of the because they wont to mimic the chinese)but they dont have the required technique.

What we should ask instead is :

1) Would chinese players play worse same or even better with eurojap rubbers?

2) In a perfect quality shot (judging it with pro players level criteria and not learning players like us) how much participation % is there from technique and how much from equipment.

The second question is a very long discussion.

Chinese philosophy/mentality/training focuses on military discipline thousands repetitions till perfection but lacks creativity. 

In a forehand loop they use more body energy than europeans do.

Perfect FH attack = Optimum Speed + Spin + Control+Accuracy(all at the sane time) + Recovery time if possible depending on the situation

European rubbers create speed of their own but lack control & accuracy. This "disadvantage" is minimized by using smaller strokes and relaxed play

Chinese rubbers on the other hand are pretty slow (a boosted h3 is 2/3 as bouncy as the tenergy) and spinny, the body and footwork is what gives the required energy/speed to the ball. 

The chinese have perfected their technique which is perfectly balanced in a FH stroke by the spinny tacky rubber.

This doesnt mean that eurojap rubbers are inferior, chinese win because they have perfect basic strokes/footwork. Only when a player has perfect  basics he is allowed to develop his game and add more creativity to it in China. 

I think that if a junior player with 100%  the feeling and play of waldner starts executing the infamous tricky shots in a , he will be punished most likely because he didnt execute the strokes "by the book" no matter how effective his tricky shots are. 

I am not absolute in this statement but I believe that chinese players with creativity can be damaged in the hands of a coach with military philosophy

Ending, I  believe it is mostly a matter of technique not the rubbers. It is clear that in the short game and serving chinese rubbers are more easy to play, but adding more spin doesnt mean that you will win the point.

Besides, waldner appelgren, persson, primorac,ryu seung min, oh san eun,samsonov, kim taek soo, have excellent short play and they all use euro rubbers.


so i definitely agree with some of your points, when I was playing at a club in Beijing I saw some juniors getting coached, all of them were at least (USATT 2000+) and they were probably 8-10 years old. But one of the kids at a very peculiar backhand (lots of wrist and significant shoulder drop, kind of like Krenga), and the coach yelled at him every single time he hit a backhand. And the kid would change it up and then not get yelled at but I saw him playing some practice matches and he kept using his unique BH, which promoted the coach to berate him again. So i definitely think that these "unique strokes" are suppressed when developing players for the CNT. 
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