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Butterfly IF T5000,IF ALC,IF ZLC,TB ZLC,ZJK S-ZLC |
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assiduous 
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 Topic: Butterfly IF T5000,IF ALC,IF ZLC,TB ZLC,ZJK S-ZLCPosted: 01/28/2014 at 9:56pm |
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I wanted to do my own comparison of the BTY high end blades. Its been an unnecessarily long journey (thanks frogger and bluebucket for sending me the wrong way) from slow, soft and flexy to fast, stiff and hard. The first blade I stuck with was Primorac. Four of them, sold all here. I want to apologize to everyone who has read my recommendation of that blade. I was sincere and did not know any better. If you have ANY AMBITION in this sport, pass on this blade. Strong vibration and very slow recovery that results with heavy loss of control on power shots. Then I got a Korbel from a dude in Israel. Soft, but a little stiffer at the neck. Better control on power shots. I thought that was good enough until I tried other stuff. Got a Clipper wood from another member and an IF ALC from japan. The blades were in opposite directions in terms of control. My Clipper was faster but very difficult for me to control, super frikkin bouncy but not in a good way. IF ALC was a new experience for me. It immediately straightened the flight path in looping. It was totally different from all wood limba blades before, incomparable in control. However I still had weak shots, overly brushing everything, no real power. And IF ALC is seriously stiff. It is softish, but will not flex at the neck. That made brushing difficult for me, and I did not like the feel of it, and did not stop on it for too long, despite the great control. Next I got a TBS from a friend and a IF ZLC from Japan. TBS was even further in the direction of IF ALC --> even better control, but on top of the stiffness, that one was hard as well. Could not do my bad brushy shots with it and did not use it much. The IF ZLC felt weird. It will flex but will not vibrate like a wood blade. Zylon makes for very fast recovery. Brushing was still kind of hard, but I had incredible victories int he very first week so I decided to stick with it. Little by little the blade forced me to open my paddle and go through the ball more. I started converting bigger and bigger % of my power to speed vs spin. You have to. However learning more direct shots opened another can of worms. I started liking my TBS and IF ALC more and more. The stiffness did not bother me that much any more, and they both had better control than the IF ZLC on power shots. One day I borrowed my friends TB ZLC at the club and won 19 consecutive points right off the start (11:0 and 8:0 in second before I lost a point). Found it HARD and STIFF. And AWESOME. Thats what she said. Same night I ordered one from TT-Japan and bought a second from a member. When I got the first TB ZLC, i got shocked by how uncomfortable the ST handle is and cancelled the one from japan. However for first time in my journey I was sure I am ready to divorce with my beloved LIMBA. I was swearing by limba until then. Limba limba limba, didn't even look at anything else. Hinoki bouncy, koto hard. Limba good, me like. But not any more. Decided to jump for the ZJK SZLC, just because i didn't know any other koto ZLC blade. Was sure the feel would be the same. No it was not, it was soft. Almost like hinoki. I do not understand the physics behind it, but there is a major difference with TB ZLC. However just as stiff, perhaps a little stiffer, so power loops are the real lazer. I know I said that for IF ZLC back in the day, and compared to Korbel, IF ZLC is a laser, but it is too flexy to be a power blade. IF ZLC is a control and finesse blade. Along the way I got a IF T5000, well after I had decided i don't want any more limba, but I had played with all other IF family blades, so i wanted to get the full picture. Its very nice. I would hate it back in the day, but if I have to pick one today, that would be my choice. Very stiff, and easily the fastest in the series, not any slower I think that the ZJK SZLC and TB ZLC. Looping is actually quite easy because of the super soft feel of the blade. T 5000 is the softest feel in the family. Perhaps thats an illusion. But its really soft despite being stiff. Well that was more of a story than comparison, but will do some strict comparison in the next few posts. 
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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assiduous
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Posted: 01/28/2014 at 9:56pm |
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I wish I could help people who are considering which of these to go for. I dont want to repeat much of whats been said a 1000 times and what I don't find so important. Small differences in speed are very unimportant to me. Who cares if speed is 2% lower? I get more variance than that based on what glue and how many layers I put. Add the rubbers, and you can get a quite different picture. To me TBS, IF ALC, IF ZLC, IF ULC (not mine but a friend from the club owns it and ive played regularly with it) are all in the same speed range, close enough, adequate speed, but not fast. TB ZLC, ZJK Szlc, IF T5000, Amultart ZLC, Photino ZLC are fast blades. And they are all stiff. There is no other way with fast blades. If they flex, the ball will fly all over the place. But digressing again.
Here is how I think people should make their choice. If you are ambitious and trust you can improve on your own or yet better take lessons, don't go for LIMBA blades. If you are good already, dont go for limba blades, and consequently pass on ANY Innerfoce blade. That also presides on the assumption that you have open paddle strokes, but good players have already figured that brushing and messing with spin is not gona take u far against good opps. You can only add spin ON TOP of the speed, like Zhang The Jike! If you are in this paragraph, go for TBS or TB ALC if you prefer a little slower with maximum control on this planet earth. TBS feels a little better because its thinner, but they basically the same. If you need the extra zing to penetrate stubborn defense but still keep control as much as possible, got from KOTO ALC to KOTO ZLC. TB and ZJK ZLC(s) are faster. However Zylon is flexier than arylate, and control is a hair lower, just a hair. And if your game absolutely relies on power go for ZLC HINOKI. Koto will hold you back from the very top of the speed range. However you will suffer another hair or two down in control. Edited by assiduous - 01/28/2014 at 10:15pm |
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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assiduous
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Posted: 01/28/2014 at 9:57pm |
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If you rely on brushing and for some reason don't think you will be changing your strokes and game in the future I highly recommend an Innerforce blade for you. There is really no reason to go with a wood limba blade if you can afford a composite, none. Even price is not an excuse. Blade price is the lowest cost in this game. You change rubbers several times a year, club fees, tournament fees and expenses, and blade you buy once per many years (if you get the right one from the start).
The following sequence of Innerforce blades is from the easiest for brushing to the highest in control. To me ease in brushing is directly and inversely correlated with control. You need SOFT and/or FLEXY for brushing, and both of those properties WILL COST YOU CONTROL. Keep in mind that all of these blades are limba, so they are relatively soft already, even the hardest. brushing: IF ZLF --> IF ZLC -- > IF AL --> IF ALC --> IF T5000 --> IF ULC : control. Still, all of these will have better control than ANY wood limba blade. Primorac, Korbel, Clipper, Maximus, K5 and the other all limba blades are just not as stable as their composite heirs. Edited by assiduous - 01/28/2014 at 10:29pm |
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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puppy412
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Posted: 01/28/2014 at 10:11pm |
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this message position is for sale, contact me by pm.
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the_theologian
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Posted: 01/28/2014 at 11:07pm |
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assiduous,
I'm not agreeing with all the conclusions but I'm enjoying the read. And I certainly appreciate your sincerity... I need to throw in the towel on quoting you in reference to the W-6 and other blades. I'd say that horse is dead. Btw it seems like maybe you're up late smoking the good stuff tonight. puppy412, that's hilarious
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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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slevin
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Posted: 01/29/2014 at 11:13am |
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I read through all of your 3 posts from start to finish
 Good, sincere exposition of your POV. Invaluable read for a BTY blade buyer. Of course, there are pros who successfully use Clipper, Limba blades, etc. I think that IF-ZLC speed is more like that of the TB-ZLC / MJ. Also: so, in your opinion, (& pardon my English here) does the SZLC offer substantially more anything than the TB-ZLC? |
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assiduous
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Posted: 01/29/2014 at 11:31am |
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Super ZLC is very different than TB ZLC in feel. It is immediately obvious. Looping is noticeably easier with Szlc, at least the brushing opening loop.. Szlc is easier to open with. Once you get a rally going they are both fantastic but the STILL feel very different. I have not played with a blade like Szlc, don't know what to compare it with. Every time I hit with it I think 'i cannot believe this is a koto blade' . Maybe I should write BTY and ask them about it. BTW, BTY themselves say that the blade has medium feel, not hard.
These two blades are very different, if you like the feel of one, you will not like the feel of the other.
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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assiduous
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Posted: 01/29/2014 at 11:41am |
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as for some pros using all wood limba blades, I acknowledge that, although I believe a pro will only get the high quality one, harder and with better control than average commercial stock. But that means nothing.. sometimes people just like what they have and don't care. Look, you can find people with PhD in Mathematics and Physics that believe that stuff in the bibles is true. Rare, but I have seen some. That doesn't give any legitimacy to the historical inaccuracies or absurd scientific claims or promotion of submissive behavior or all the other bs that the bibles have. Such people are not something extraordinary. They are to be expected in every normal distribution. The elite players still overwhelmingly adopt some kind of a composite blade, and there is a reason for that.
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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slevin
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Posted: 01/29/2014 at 11:43am |
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Thanks. From Butterfly's description of the new ZJK vanilla ZLC:
• A model with ZL-Carbon; powerful attack as well as the soft feeling are major features, high reaction force and flexibility is possible. So, perhaps this is due to changes in the ZJK series design other than just the composite material used... |
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ttping85
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Posted: 01/30/2014 at 6:40pm |
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Great review! As a Butterfly fan I have tested all these blades too. It's really fun. I immediately abandoned all non-carbon blades with only arylate or zylon fiber because too much focused on generating spin, but not enough speed. Then I abandoned the T5000 blades because too much speed, lack of control and lack of ability to generate spin versus the composite ones. Then I abandoned all ZLC blades because even though they were efficient I didn't like the feel, except Mizutani which is my current blade. I still own all ALC blades and the Super ZLC. I like their feel better than the Mizutani but somehow it's the one I am most efficient in forehand power loops (my dominant way to play). Super ZLC is also nice but from time to time I like to brush loop and one this one the Mizutani is clearly better for me. I am waiting desperately for the Mizutani SZLC with limba outers to come out!!! But for my backhand all ALC blades are better for me because they are just easier to play with, are a bit slower and are bit more forgiving. All this is really necessary because my backhand technique is really far away from my forehand one (french old school style) and no matter how hard I try this technique is quite fixed after more than 20 years of playing...
Maybe I should get custom blade from Butterfly if they are ready to make a blade with different construction on each side.
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My list of blades for sale https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wYci9423byd3X43DhSsaXOmysNKMfK-RnPWSo3UfpkQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
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puppy412
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Posted: 01/30/2014 at 8:16pm |
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I did it.
I read all the 3 posts. my view after all these years is that basically all the equipment is the same  really, I could play with any blade or rubber and I would play practically the same. the only reason why every now and then I still buy equipment is basically because it's fun. |
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assiduous
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Posted: 01/30/2014 at 10:04pm |
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yesterday i beat for first time a 1900 with nasty illegal serve ( i gave up trying to get him to toss).
I yelled so hard after the last point that even my boy ZJK would crack a smile and give me a nod. Once before I was up 2:1 and 10:7 in game 4 and lost 5 match points and then the whole match. He tried to pull of the exact same scenario again but came a lil short and I took a 3:1 win. I am telling you, everybody has been coming to examine my paddle last week. I haven't gotten a comment from my opponents like ' wow so spiny', or 'so fast!', but people are surprised that I keep coming after a couple of good blocks. I have one of the best opening loops in the club at any rating, but my consistency immediately drops after that. Good players are used to just blocking me to corners and waiting for me to fade away and lose it. This Szlc really has fantastic control. I just wish it had a better feel. I still cant get used to it. Very stiff and yet soft. Its like im playing with styrofoam
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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assiduous
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Posted: 01/30/2014 at 10:08pm |
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By the way, despite stiffness, and hard Rhyzm on BH, ZJK opening very strong with that paddle. I looped almost everything from everywhere. Drove that guy mad.. he's used to winning, not losing points on his serve. Once you learn to make good contact with the ball you realize soft rubbers don't really help in opening loop. Yes, you get more dwell, but the soft versions always have lower throw, which hurts. That's why T05 opens easier than T05 FX, and reg Rhyzm (now) opens easier for me than the Rhyzm 425 that virtually the whole club uses on BH.
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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viktorovich
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Posted: 01/31/2014 at 3:32am |
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assiduous wrote: Super ZLC is very different than TB ZLC in feel.It is immediately obvious.Looping is noticeably easier with Szlc, at least the brushing opening loop..Szlc is easier to open with.
Hinoki - is somewhere between Limba and Koto. Probably, the best of two worlds (the brushing opening loop and powerloop) will be : Hinoki + composite ( for example : Xiom Zetro Quad,Joola Rosskopf Emotion) .Your opinion ? Thanks.
Edited by viktorovich - 01/31/2014 at 3:49am |
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ttping85
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Posted: 01/31/2014 at 3:51am |
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yes hinoki + composite is great for brushing and powerloop. My former blade was Iolite and it is simply amazing for this. The problem is as assiduous mentioned the lack of control. if you play with JRE you have plenty of control and it's great for brushing but for powerloops you better chose a powerful rubber like Joola Rhyzm. Zetro Quad is in between Iolite and JRE.
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assiduous
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Posted: 01/31/2014 at 10:43am |
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Is that true?? Is there hinoki in Szlc? It does feel like it, and I compared it to XZQ myself, and thats the hollow feeling I don't like. I don't understand what all this commotion about the feel of hinoki is. I HATE hinoki FEEL. It is so... not captive. Anti-limba.
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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slevin
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Posted: 01/31/2014 at 10:52am |
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Interesting. And when you initially described the SZLC (soft, hollow, good dwell for opening loop, stiff and powerful from mid-distance & you don't like the feel of the blade) I thought that that description would probably fit a Photino (another hinoki composite)...
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Carryboy
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Posted: 01/31/2014 at 11:57am |
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That was a nice read assiduous, totally enjoyed it!!
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Spin Master Carbo Power (Stefan Elsner Custom)
Donic Acuda S1 Max Donic Acuda P1 Blue Max |
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slevin
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Posted: 01/31/2014 at 12:44pm |
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By the way: a small addendum on the initial info on blades regarding the new ALC one:
ZJK-ALC is definitely like Viscaria instead of like the TB-ALC. It seems to have bouncy, vibrating balsa as it's core instead of the steady kiri of the TB-ALC. Additionally, because of it's larger handle, most strokes with ZJK-ALC are faster than they are with the Viscaria. But as always: performance of ALC blades is very piece & weight dependent - I'd always recommend choosing a heavier weight in this ALC family as opposed to a lighter one. Edited by slevin - 01/31/2014 at 12:44pm |
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ttping85
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Posted: 01/31/2014 at 1:11pm |
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SZLC has koto outers as all ZJK blades.
Viscaria with a balsa core is an urban legend which started from a mistake of butterflyonline...
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My list of blades for sale https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wYci9423byd3X43DhSsaXOmysNKMfK-RnPWSo3UfpkQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
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slevin
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Posted: 01/31/2014 at 1:26pm |
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I'll assume you're right (you've probably played with more ALC blades than I have & your 'For Sale' blade list would put any EJ to shame while simultaneously making him feel good for not being the worst offender around ). BTW: any (translated) quote from a BTY japanese website confirming this (though I assume that they are quiet on wood composition of their blades)?That's what I think when I look at the core of TB-ALC vs Viscaria. However, my 2 TB-ALCs & prior TBS feel a bit absorptive, no vibrations and no flex. My 2 Viscarias & the ZJK-ALC feel and sound different - they have some vibration, some flex and seem more bouncy. And they have a slightly more high-pitched sound. Perhaps, it is co-incidently piece-dependent...
Edited by slevin - 01/31/2014 at 1:36pm |
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the_theologian
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Posted: 02/04/2014 at 7:15pm |
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assiduous,
Which blade are you settling on, ZJK-SZLC or TB-ZLC?
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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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assiduous
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Posted: 02/04/2014 at 8:20pm |
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To be honest, as far as pleasure playing the blade, TB ZLC is like 9 out of 10, and S-zlc is negative 5. Negative, because it is in the opposite direction. But I have changed my mind before, so I am wondering if I can get used to it. Perhaps its because i never play hinoki, but to me the feel is like playing with a block of Styrofoam. And performance is very good as I said many times, so its just that feel.
I am not settled yet, but eventually will sell one of them and buy a second of the other, so I use the same blade at work and at the club.
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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zeio
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Posted: 02/04/2014 at 9:59pm |
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I'm not aware of any official description of the core, but there are at least two Japanese sources pointing to kiri as the core material.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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the_theologian
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Posted: 02/05/2014 at 12:30am |
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I'll be curious to see what you settle on. Btw, remind me if you've tried Maze
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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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assiduous
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Posted: 02/05/2014 at 12:59am |
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never played Maze or Mizutani
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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ttping85
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Posted: 02/05/2014 at 4:22am |
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Maze or Mizutani are a must try if you like limba outer plies.
But I still don't understand why you talk about hinoki when you talk about the S-ZLC. It has no hinoki in its composition.
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My list of blades for sale https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wYci9423byd3X43DhSsaXOmysNKMfK-RnPWSo3UfpkQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
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assiduous
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Posted: 02/05/2014 at 9:45am |
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well something makes it feel not solid.
I never got a mizutani because the carbon is outside by the fist layer. I thought thats a recipe for blocking, and not looping. Now I am selling all my limba stuff anyway, so i guess its too late.
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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lineup32
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Posted: 02/05/2014 at 10:01am |
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Interesting journey,I have never been in a modern day blade manufacturing operation in Japan but expect that it is world class and produces the best possible commercial grade available not taking anything away from Chinese manufacturing but Japan has always been very strong in its manufacturing know how. The issue of different wood and composite blades makes for many creative possibilities but I was thinking about baseball and how at the professional level they still use wood bats but lower level play are allowed to use metal as it gives the less gifted or young players a chance to hit the ball further.
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dabookerman
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Posted: 02/05/2014 at 10:25am |
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+1 on the Maze
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Photino FL
Yasaka Rising Dragon Short Pips |
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assiduous wrote: