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[video] please USATT rate me or any tips |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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It's not a bad idea for older adults to watch paralympic-level table tennis players now and then. I used to watch the highest level paralympic events at the U.S. Nationals and learned a ton from them...
Not every adult has the mobility to perform the "correct" stroke anymore. |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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I'm not familiar with micro/macro footwork. Whatever works for you - you should use! But when offering advice - one should offer the correct method.
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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"I would say the easiest way to improve is to focus on footwork."
Micro footwork is about things like foot positioning and balance and how they affect the ability to do weight transfer to improve stroke speed and recovery. For example, if you hit your forehand out of a backhand stance, your footwork needs to be corrected. If you look at OP, he almost never does this. In fact, he may be guilty of hitting too many shots out of a backhand stance, but that all depends on how he intends to play but is a more advanced footwork error (but again, may not be if he has the athleticism to support it). MAcro footwork would be more about covering larger distances, and while it helps advanced players, it is not the reason why most players lose points at the lower level. In fact, players who never use it get as high as 2300.
The "correct method" is what fits into the player's goals. Edited by NextLevel - 04/18/2014 at 5:35pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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There is no such thing as micro/macro footwork - it's just stuff you're making up. Good luck to the OP - hope he improves his game!
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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Lestat said what I wanted to say best. My original point was where to get the most bang for your buck in terms of TT improvement. I was trying to tell OP that he should be more ambitious about improving his stroke mechanics - it's hard to find a single quality topspin in the original video. Jrscatman said he should work on his footwork with a Kanak Jha model. Nothing annoys me more than people being told to work on their footwork (especially in this case where the footwork is decent) when the real problem lack of good strokes.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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I think it is pretty easy to agree that without proper footwork you will have limits on how far you will go in table-tennis and will look awkward when you play. For crying out loud the OP is only 15 years old and some of you are discouraging him from learning proper footwork? Why can't you learn proper footwork and stroke at the same time? When you are not in the right place you would have to greatly distort your stroke from the correct form in order to return the rally= bad habits and a waste of time. So it is for the OP to decide how far he wants to go in table-tennis ( and everything else in life). If you want to just enjoy the game or just have short term goals to win more a few more points (but not improving your technique), sure there is no wrong way otherwise you'll need the whole pkg.
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Lestat
Super Member Joined: 01/16/2012 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 421 |
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Yes, there is. NextLevel put it well, you might call it whatever you like but if you don't make a differentiation between positioning footwork needed to perform a stroke and footwork needed to reach out to a ball FAST, what do you actually know about footwork? Most amateur players with good knees could do the first well, very few the second. You went for a coaching certificate so you've obviously considered coaching. You will learn this soon enough, hamper an adult player with distance footwork drills and they won't be back. Having had a quick look at the OPs video, footwork in terms of mobility is not a problem for him. He's keen to move, his feet are fast enough and he looks eager to learn. He just doesn't know what to do with himself at the table. I recommend a bunch of sessions with a good coach, sooner rather than later.
Edited by Lestat - 04/18/2014 at 8:13pm |
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NextLevel
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As long as one is making strokes in good form, foot positioning is key. OP is generally good at that kind of footwork. What he needs is a good stroke, not more footwork drills.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Lestat
Super Member Joined: 01/16/2012 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 421 |
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Forehand loop with Brian Pace. Watch the positioning footwork. He's doing constant micro adjustments for every stroke. Sometimes he leaps left or right in small jumps to get out of the way or to reach out - but it's all fairly localized. This is attainable for most players if they focus on it. Mind you, it does't have to be as sharp as Brian's to be efficient, as long as it follows the same basic form.
Edited by Lestat - 04/18/2014 at 9:14pm |
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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FH Counter- Starting position of your arm should be lower. The stroke path should be more of a rotational path, my old coach called it like a pendulum. Your contact point is too late, you have to hit it earlier.
BH Counter- The stroke isn't a straightening of the arm but more of a rotation of the forearm around the elbow.
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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I agree with you on a lot of stuff, especially the over-rated part, if you are talking about the mentality that footwork is EVERYTHING. BUT... not on this key point. Being LOW and balanced/ready, moving with efficient enough steps into a sufficiently good enough position to arrive on time and on balance... that counts for a LOT and can never be under-rated. It is a foundation that allows one to improve upon the stroke itself and get way better. One can argue that being in proper position/balance/on time can cover a LOT of error in the stroke itself.
When I first got to Korea, I was pretty much a self-taught dude who could hit maybe once a week if lucky. I could get to a ball and spin the daylights outta it, much better than their div 1 students (I showed up as a Div 4 city player). High level Korean coaches would look at my shot vs underspin and tell me my IMPACT was good, but everything else crappy. Looking back as I grew 3 levels and developed some footwork and better balance/ready position... I gotta say they were correct.
Having just a stroke doesn't cut it for much. Sure, that crap got me to 1600 USATT and Div 4 city with a fearsome topspin, but anyone who could control the ball and make me move for everything would be running me better than a Yo-Yo and win without cracking a sweat.
Time has shown me the more I learn and grow in level in this sport, the more and more I am deficient and do not yet know this sport or perform it well enough yet.
You properly emphasize the micro footwork, heck, I think that could also be held more important than it is. It is a big part of being in position, it helps one keep knees flexed and ready to move and adjust. Improving just the micro footwork counts for a LOT and sets the table to be efficient at larger steps. No one can move if they are not low, wide, and ready to move. Staying low and taking those micro steps are good training for the larger steps. It is what we do before exploding for the large ones. I believe it is very under-rated and under-taught.
Higher level players were always telling me to tiny hop between steps and such and early on, I never got it or what it did for me. Now, I do it without thinking about it.
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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
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ByeByeAbout
Super Member Joined: 03/24/2014 Location: Canada/SE ASIA Status: Offline Points: 407 |
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nl some nice speed on those bh flick kills....very good. too bad the knees restrict your movement as you could really cover a lot more territory simply by crouching... regards rick |
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VictorK
Silver Member Joined: 08/08/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 647 |
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Lestat - I wasn't familiar with the term "micro footwork", but I think I understand what you mean by this. However, IMO micro footwork is still part of footwork (you appear to equate footwork with "macro" movements), and I strongly believe that footwork is by no way overrated, at least not in the places/countries where I've trained. As a matter of fact, I believe that footwork (both "micro" and "macro") is the most under-practiced aspect of TT, and it's the biggest detriment to progress for most players, including beginners and intermediate players. BTW, I'm curious, where do you draw the line between "micro" and "macro" footwork? Do one-step, step-around, step-in (e.g. for flick), basic shuffle belong into "micro" or "macro" category? |
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ByeByeAbout
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jrscatman
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We all have to go by our knowledge and our experiences - in my game footwork made a huge difference. As for Micro/Macro footwork - I've never come across this term till today, perhaps it's advanced knowledge that I don't have. I just wanted to let the OP know in my opinion footwork is the single most important aspect of the game.
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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Much less. 1200-1400. The OP is just getting the ball back and not setting up his shots. |
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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Watching the video of Dave in the red shirt, I'd have to really stretch to call him a 1000 rated player. I don't think I saw a short serve in the match. Every serve was long with very little spin. Both players stood in the middle, 3 feet from the table to return the serves. The whole match looked like a friendly warm-up. Edited by mts388 - 04/19/2014 at 1:50am |
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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Exactly. We have much more effective 1200 players in our club.
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Lestat
Super Member Joined: 01/16/2012 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 421 |
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@BHman and VictorK
I'm not necessarily disagreeing, think we're approaching this from different angles. I'm just afraid of being too dogmatic about footwork to people who either don't have the time, inclination or the body strength to learn the game to a T. And maybe we should do a poll, I always thought people equate footwork used in a general way with moving around the table. Otherwise you would say stroke footwork. It's important to make a differentiation. These are not up and coming juniors, so no point in talking in absolute terms. Bottom line is, there's the easy part of the footwork, and the hard part of it - so there's footwork and there's footwork. Where the line is drawn it's up the the individual. This is a very complex sport and has to be eaten in chunks. Some parts are independent from each other, others have to be built on top of a previous skill. This applies to everybody, let alone folks who are not looking to do performance. And if we agree with this much, we can also agree prioritising becomes important. I'm not a coach but say I'm looking to evaluate an adult player. First I'm looking at stroke mechanics, stance and stroke footwork. Then, between this and falkenberg there's a TON of other stuff I can look at without bringing the player to their physical limits, including tactical stuff. For instance, I've seen enough players who can actually move quite well around the table, but often fail to lift their arm after looping underspin - and the second hit goes over the table? Or, instead of falkenberg, how about drilling fast forehand/backhand switch which could give you the possibility to return a quality shot without the run-around footwork? Or, shall we talk about serves and returns? All right, all players who load their serves aimlessly without knowing what the heck is supposed to come back, raise their hands! Hmm… I rest my case. I agree that positioning is key, but only if we're talking in absolute terms. A high level game can be achieved with relatively limited footwork. They can position very well, but within the limits of their body strength. I have examples around me and I stand by this statement. And let's not assume players do not move around the table at all, they're not encased in concrete after all. They do, just slower. And one last thing, I'm 38yo with a 48bpm pulse at rest so I would consider myself pretty athletic. On top of that, I invest a lot of my time in this sport and half of my sparring partners are top notch. Yet, footwork drills executed correctly are pushing me to my limits so it does make me wonder about these poor souls coming here for advice and being prescribed footwork in a general way.
Edited by Lestat - 04/19/2014 at 7:44am |
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VictorK
Silver Member Joined: 08/08/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 647 |
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>>>.... I always thought people equate footwork used in a general way with moving around the table. Otherwise you would say stroke footwork. It's important to make a differentiation....<<<
@Lestat - It appears that we agree on almost everything ... except your sentence that I quoted above. For me, the term footwork translates into any (small, medium, big) feet movement and repositioning that is done during a rally, and it starts with standing on the balls of your feet or doing tiny adjustments and goes all the way to a Falkenberg, and beyond. If there's a perception that equates footwork with just the big movements around the table, I'm strongly against it, and I would love to have it eradicated from TT. I'm with you on the importance of "micro" footwork, as I believe that the better players get at "micro" footwork, the less "macro" footwork they need to do during rallies, since they are more likely to stay balanced and not chase the ball all over the court. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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You have pretty tough standards. I hardly served short until I was 1700 and long serves still dominate my strategy. The key is I serve short once the player proves that my long serves are target practice. This is pretty rare at the lower levels with the exception of juniors who return all serves with their forehands or the rare junior with a powerful backhand loop that is spin oriented. Older players who were not trained in the short game are not going to have the patience to drop balls short repeatedly and it does take some athleticism to move on and out. If you take the amateur game seriously (and I plan to write that book on day because I think we need a serious way to keep older amateurs in our sport without stagnating their growth with ineffective drills), I think the approach should be to accept that amateurs will have severe gaps, bit the real question is whether they have any skills that would pose a problem for their opponents, mot whether they improve every table tennis skill they have. Better players have a similar approach, but more universal asthwy need to leave less weaknesses on the table. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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I made this point earlier, because I guess where I differ with you and others who seem to agree with you is whether we put micro footwork into the stroke, which is where I believe it largely belongs, or whether we put micro footwork into the larger movements to play a ball that cannot be reached from where one stands, which is not where I think it belongs. Both kinds of footwork are important, but would you recommend them all as being of equal importance to a player who needs to do something to get to the next step in table tennis? The problem is that because people with your level of play don't make the distinction between micro and macro footwork, it confuses amateurs who don't have time to learn all the elements of footwork and think they are all equally important to playing effective table tennis. If you refuse to make the distinction Lestat is making, then you may fail to see that there are players who can embrace elements of micro footwork in their practice and can even take that to a higher level because it enhances their stroke (on a good day, when I play without abandon or face a chopper, I bend my waist, spread my legs apart on service return to stay low, rotate into the shot on both sides, do short strokes but full body turns on kills shots etc.), but who cannot consistently practice all the elements of macro footwork because of its demands on more joints and aerobic capacity. As roundrobin pointed out, watching high level Paralympic players can inform people about what it takes to have an effective stroke. Many of them have weaker forehands relative to full bodied loopers, but even then some of them hit/topspin very effectively regardless.
Edited by NextLevel - 04/19/2014 at 8:51am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Lestat
Super Member Joined: 01/16/2012 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 421 |
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Seems to be a question of using the right nomenclature. For may part, if I'm saying I'm doing a footwork drill I'd be referring to something that gets me moving around the table. Otherwise, it would be a forehand drill, or a backhand drill etc.
Yep, a quality shot from a well balanced position makes it more likely that the other player needs footwork
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BH-Man
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haha Lestat, you ought to go to Korea and see what coach will do to you haha.
Bring Ur DEFIBULATOR !!
You will get the living daylights smoked outta you once you graduate beyond the FH drive.
I like your approach to addressing old fat adults TT game with "chunks". I agree you cannot change the world in one day. You gotta work with what you got and correct things that give a big pay-off. At the same time, fundamentals are important and are a foundation for growth, so those cannot be ignored.
It is difficult for a coach or friend to take an overweight old dude with messed up tactics, strokes, footwork and poor knowledge and turn them into a holy TT terror in a few weeks. Just won't happen and you get it.
As much as I am at odds with the pundit crowd (at least on beginning equipment), I gotta agree that starting the new/old fat dude player off with a balance of working on the things with stroke (stroke itself, balance, recovery, use of body, power, acceleration, timing, impact zone, etc) along with the movement piece (ready position, balance, stance, the different movement techniques, bouncing back, small correction step, knee bend before opponent ball strike) starting with these things is the right way to go in my mind.
I realize just as you do that dumping it all on old fat dude in a session or two simply wont compute. You eat the enemy one bite at a time as part of a campaign being aware of what is ahead and attacking it in a small, efficient manner that later sees big results.
BTW, if anyone has seen me in real life out there or even the pics I post on the TT forums, I am an old, fat dude indeed.
Lestat, if you can maintain under 50 pulse at rest, you got some serious nice blood vessels and if you got the lungs and muscles to match that, look out.
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mhnh007
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For me having good form includes what you call good micro foot work. Not everyone can have good form, specially if they are not athletic, and not training as a kid. Every coach will try to get you to have a good form, but good coach will try to get the best out of what you can do, while helping you to achieve a good form .
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duchoangle
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I think the OP has a similar style as I do, so I'll throw my bit into the mix for comparison.
This was my first USATT tournament, after which I was rated 1369. My opponent was 1412. I'm the guy in green. Match starts at 2:18. A little over a year later, I played the same guy again in a collegiate tournament. I was 1700 at the time and my opponent was 1550. It's hard to tell without a serious match, but the OP's level seems closer to my first video.
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murraylp2
Super Member Joined: 09/03/2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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-Response to the video, I agree with you in that I normally play similars style (not so much in the video I posted as I did too much blocking), although when im in good form I would be happy to say im on level with you in the second video, but often worse than the first video. My forehand consistency varies so much so, thats probably something to work on. I have to say a huge thank you to all the advice ive gotten so far! I really appreciate it and its helpful to get me on the right track -In general response, I hope to play table tennis well through my adult-hood, although unfortunately due to no clubs nearby, I can only play 3 times a week for 2 hours with minimal coaching. Once im 18 (moving to city for university) I will be hopefully be able to play alot more (hopefully 6 days a week for 2-3 hours each day) as I really enjoy it and am dedicated to improving. I have been massively affected by the fact I didnt start playing till I was 14 (been playing 1 year and 7 months), coaching is very limited and I cant play enough a week. -I usually use far more attacks on forehand on backhand, but though i was doing better blocking over the last few days. Luckily reading all the advice i now know to put more emphasis on attacks. Since then I have been able to attack 50% of my friends serves with forehand, and push the rest to set up an attack next ball. I have managed to score similarly on the score board and hopefully this will help my game improve. Thanks for all the advice, really helping and I would really appreciate any more inputs!
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NextLevel
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Good stuff, murraylp2.
Best of luck with everything. Your whole game will improve with time as long as you play and work on getting better weapons/strokes - some things will lag behind others significantly, but that is all we can do when we don't train 6 hours a day, 7 days a week. You are right to focus on offense - defense comes over time as you learn to do smaller strokes so your defensive strokes (blocks, short counters, lobs) tend to be smaller/safer versions of your offensive strokes. Just work on generating more spin. IF you look at duchoangle's two videos, in the first one, he was topspinning, but his opponent was often blocking it back unless he hit the first ball hard. In the second video, sometimes, all he had to do was spin the ball once and the opponent blocked it off the table. BTW, I watched the full ten minutes highlight reel - you did yourself an injustice posting this two minute version. Your forehand is much better than this version gives you credit for, though you can still make it even better if you develop a down the line from the forehand and inside out shot from the backhand.
Edited by NextLevel - 04/19/2014 at 10:45am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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