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Types of Spin and serve returns |
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larrytt
Silver Member Joined: 04/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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Posted: 05/03/2014 at 10:22pm |
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It's difficult to teach how to return serves in a book, but you can teach the tactics of receive this way. As I note at the start and finish of Table Tennis Tactics for Thinkers, my primary goal is to get the reader to think. I've been toying for years with making videos, but I'm more the writer sort. But maybe someday. -Larry Hodges
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Clarence247
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Cool :)
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tt4me
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Serve returns will be hard to cover in a book. I think you need to make a video with marked balls and high speed recordings that can be slowed down.
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larrytt
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That's how I broke it down in my Table Tennis Tactics for Thinkers book. -Larry Hodges
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CraneStyle
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In the interest of simplicity, I thought it would be sensible to have an understandable notation (think of the Younglings). No use of strict angles since players will typically have there own deviation from pure Top Spin, Back Spin & Side Spin. Short, medium or long serves have not been included (yet)...
If we can agree, we can then look at the best way to return such serves. I'm assuming that I am communicating with Table Tennis players, so knowledge of the terms used are recognised. They are all in the content of the server. The notation: T = Topspin (Brushing ball from bottom to top) B = Backspin (Brushing ball from top to bottom) S = Sidespin (Brushing ball from left to right or right to left) U = Underspin (Brushing bottom of ball) L = Left (Direction of bat for deviation) R = Right (Direction of bat for deviation) My list of serves using this notation is NOT a list of 27 variations. 1. T 2. TL 3. TR 4. B 5. BL 6. BR 7. SL 8. SR 9. UL (Corkscrew) 10. UR (Corkscrew) ... What do you think...? |
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Clarence247
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A good system would be not to differentiate by serve or spin - but to differentiate by response - describing a required response first (ie loop / attack the serve) and then group all serves where this response is most desirable and adding small notes on the slight variations needed (ie open racket a bit more, hit through a bit more, etc)
Someone learning should immediately have access to and retain the most valuable bits of information (ones that can actually be used in a game) - therefore response and variation in response is key. The way Larrytt dissects into 27 types of spin though still has a role - it is interesting for those who want to know / broaden their knowledge lets say theoretically. It's also entertaining after all.
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geardaddy
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All I was saying is that you get 19 spin directions if you just look at the combinations of 2 axis, plus the no spin. I understand how you can get 8 more spin directions if you include the unique combinations of all 3 axis. I guess my point is that those extra 8 are simply additional nuances to the first 19. For instance, you can describe distinct serves that create sidespin-topsin, or corkscrew-backspin, and etc. But is it useful to further describe serves that create sidespin-topspin-corkscrew for example. Well, IMO it's not really very useful. You could probably eliminate some of the 19 combinations as being practical as well. Probably there are more like 15 practical spin directions to talk about.
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larrytt
Silver Member Joined: 04/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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Of course not. I've made it clear that the 27 different spin combos theoretically possible (though not all possible in practice) are only of theoretical and intellectual interest. When reading spin, you don't have to identify which combos of these spins it is. You simply have to read the direction the ball is spinning and how fast it is spinning. That's it. And then you learn how to react to the various spins. If it's spinning with any corkscrewspin, then if you see it coming you anticipate the sideways jump. (It'll also jump off your racket, but generally less than other spins.) If it's coming with any sidespin, you anticipate the sideways jump off your racket, knowing that a firm return will minimize the effect, and aim your racket to compensate. If it has any backspin, you know you have to lift some or push. If it has any topspin you know you have to drive through it or get on top of it to topspin it. You don't consciously do any of this; with practice, it becomes second nature as you react to the way the ball is spinning. A player doesn't have to know about corkscrewspin if he is simply reacts to this type of spin by anticipating the sideways jump. As a side note, "ghost spin" is simply a very heavy backspin serve that, if given the chance, bounces back into the net. -Larry Hodges
Edited by larrytt - 05/02/2014 at 9:14pm |
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Clarence247
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I completely agree with DDreamer - and lol @ ghost spin! The direction in which the ball travels and the spin the ball has are 2 different things. I would like to add a few more elements of service receive though - it is to me not only 100% about spin (although spin is the biggest factor). 1) Spin: Side (rotating clockwise or anti clockwise simple as that - if it was originally hit to the side of the ball or at the back does not make a difference) and also / top / backspin / no spin + any combination of the spins (side / back for example). Forget 27 spins! It is easier to fill books if you discuss 27 spins, but it has no practical value and will not help you return serves better. 3 spins and their combinations + no spin ... that's all! 2) amount of spin - important to read correctly and possibly harder than reading the TYPE of spin. 3) direction / trajectory: diagonal or down the line? curving or straight line? 4) Long or short? (this makes a difference as a long backspin serve should still be attacked, however a short back spin serve should be pushed). 5) speed - sidespin / topspin serves come in clearly different speeds (thrust in forward motion) - what some people forget is that backspin serves also come in different speeds. Speed can differ from Long / Short in that not all long serves are really fast... and some short serves are a lot slower than others because the spin slows them (or even pulls them back as in the Ghost serve). In my opinion all these are elements of a service, and will require adjustments from the receiver in order to return effectively.
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NextLevel
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DDreamer's argument is probably that if you follow the pendulum serve paradigm, with underspin, side under, sidespin, side top serves and topspin serves, you've already captured corkscrew serves completely in the side back and side top parts of this paradigm.
I think he is largely right if the topic is service. I only agree with him that the approach to returning the serves is the same in a very high level contact way. I think sidespin and sidetop/sideback are not approached the same way - I tend to return pure side by looping the top of the ball and side top by hitting the back of the all. But of course, I am not that high level so any explication on his part is appreciated.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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smackman
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so thats serve 1 what's next, can't wait for another 3 pages
27 serves x 3 pages = 81 pages , lets go
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beeray1
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When I serve, I exclusively use Service spin every time
I thought what actually defined the type of spin was the axis on and direction in which the ball is spinning. Corkscrew spin is definitely a different axis to sidespin. Those two are as much the same as topspin is to sidespin. I think the grey area is when people say corkscrew/under or side/under. But it's pretty clear-cut that corkscrew is it's own thing. my 2c.
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BRS
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God bless you suds - that video is super. I'm sorry if OP got little from his thread, or anybody else except a chance to argue about geometry and physics, but to me that video is worth the two hours I wasted on the forum today.
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Reinecke
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While you may be able to get by returning serves with corkscrew by treating them like sidespin, I think is pretty shortsighted to completely overlook an entire category of spin. If you would like to remain ignorant to corkscrew spin and fully understanding it, then that is fine. But people on this thread are trying to discuss the benefits of it and how it affects the game, so please refrain from bashing the whole topic. My corkscrew serves will continue to baffle opponents who try to treat them as sidespin.
Edited by Reinecke - 05/02/2014 at 5:09pm |
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Reinecke
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Yessir thats right. The real question is would the spin reverse??? Like if it is coming at you with right corkscrew, would it continue rotating the same way or reverse when it dug into the rubber? I go with reverse. I think
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DDreamer
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I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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in2spin
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in a absolutely perfect environment, corkscrew spin - you would be able to parry/hit it, and it would go straight back, since there would be no side or topspin (on any axis) to deal with....however, it would bounce sideways upon landing on the opponent's side?
:)
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Fulanodetal
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"One of the problems here is that we are not allowing for the fact that usually corkscrew and sidespin are not usually pure but are blends of the 2 spins with the axis of spin tilted at around 45 degrees."
Yes, that's why I alluded to the Nirvana Fallacy..."The nirvana fallacy is the informal fallacy of comparing actual things with unrealistic, idealized alternatives. It can also refer to the tendency to assume that there is a perfect solution to a particular problem." In other words, simply because we can't realistically produce pure corkscrew spin, doesn't mean it does not exist in practical terms. It is not a type of sidespin as DDreamer wants to claim.
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larrytt
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I've done that before. Drawing circles is no different than finding the axis of rotation. As I noted, I don't think you are taking combinations of three spins into account. I'll go over the 27 theoretical combinations on Monday (not all are practically possible, such as a pure corkscrewspin), and there will be no redundancies; each will have a different axis of rotation (or no rotation, with no-spin), and each will be a different combo of the three main axis of rotation. (I'm pretty sure the two spins you mention above are distinct, but I'll look at it more closely before I post on Monday.) -Larry Hodges
Edited by larrytt - 05/02/2014 at 4:40pm |
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geardaddy
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Your example here demonstrates where the combinations in terms of groups of 2 axis overlap and are really the same thing. A topspin/left-sidespin serve is really the same thing as a right-corkscrew/left-sidespin serve. I don't think it's intuitive to think about the spin beyond the combination of 2 axis. An analogy would be compass points, where the first level is North, South, West, and East. The second level is NorthWest, SouthWest, NorthEast, and SouthEast. The 3rd level is North-by-NorthWest, West-by-NorthWest, and etc. Well, I don't think it's useful to delineate further beyond that 2nd level when explaining the variations. Draw the circles on the ball like I described and you'll see what I'm talking about.
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pingpongpaddy
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In contrast to DDreamer I have been aware of corkscrew spin and side spin for 40+ years
One of the problems here is that we are not allowing for the fact that usually corkscrew and sidespin are not usually pure but are blends of the 2 spins with the axis of spin tilted at around 45 degrees. So ball can sometimes both curve through the air a bit and kick sideways off the table a bit. But if you can visualise, Say, an HZW type(pure)corkscrew wide to rightie's fh You'll notice that if the righty is hooking slightly then effectively he is receiving topspin. If the righty tries to fade it down the line, the more he comes to the left of the pole, the more he will experience backspin. If he gets right on the pole it will be little spin. However as there is likely to be some element of normal side there may be some kick off the receiver's rubber which will be affected by whether racket angle is open or closed. Its quite difficult to work out what the effective spin received merely by thinking about it. |
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larrytt
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Nice video. It's always fun to steal presentation ideas from other coaches. I think one of the highlights of my coaching career came in 1990-91, when I was Dan Seemiller's assistant coach all summer long for his summer camps. I volunteered to give a lecture on serving, and I noticed that Dan was taking notes, more than even the students. I asked him about it afterwards, and he said he liked the way I taught it, and was taking notes for his own lectures! -Larry Hodges
Edited by larrytt - 05/02/2014 at 4:29pm |
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larrytt
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There really are 27 combinations of topspin/backspin, sidespin left and right, and corkscrewspin left and right. I'll list them in my blog on Monday. (I'm too busy right now, as noted in my blog this morning.) I've done this before, and I'm hoping I can find one of those listings rather than have to tediously write them out again. I think you may be missing the eight combinations of all three spins - such as a topspin-sidespin left-corkscrewspin left serve. (Yes, you can do all three. I'll explain this in my blog on -Larry Hodges
Edited by larrytt - 05/05/2014 at 1:44pm |
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suds79
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This question you mentioned immediately reminded me of something Joola coach Richard McAfee was talking about here from 8:09-8:50 Link directly to that point: or here's the whole video and you can go to that point. Edited by suds79 - 05/02/2014 at 4:02pm |
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Reinecke
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Could be both And yeah you got it.
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slevin
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Basically: assume at each orthogonal spin axis, you can categorize the infinite possible values in 3 categories: {topspin, 0, backspin} {left sidespin, 0, right sidespin} {clockwise corkscrewspin, 0, anti-clockwise corkscrewspin} Now, each serve shall have a spin axis with 3 orthogonal components (each of which can have one of these 3 basic values). Now, your no-spin serve shall be 1 of 27 different basic combinations. Or am I writing while high on a Friday afternoon?
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BRS
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Moving back slightly closer to the OP --
How do you good players judge the incoming spin and react when you are receiving? I doubt you consciously think 'It's side-top! Flip it!' or some front-brain process like that. I was taught (unsuccessfully so far) to mirror the server's paddle face at contact. Unfortunately I am spatial-relationships challenged in my brain, so even if you gave me five minutes I would have a hard time figuring out what angle and direction of my paddle face mirrors his. Is there a commonsense rule like if the ball is spinning this way touch it on this part to cancel the spin? |
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Reinecke
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btw, nothing derails a thread more than bringing up the topic of sidespin This is from the thread "topspin balls can not be attacked":
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=66169&PN=2&title=topspin-balls-cannot-be-attacked
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Reinecke
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Thanks for the image suds. This helps explain what I wrote above. If they angled the paddle to either side it would "read" top or backspin, causing the ball to pop up or drop down.
Edited by Reinecke - 05/02/2014 at 3:31pm |
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Reinecke
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If you are looking for a reason to explain it, think about this: Corkscrew spin is invisible! Until it hits the table that is... Backspin balls float as they fly Topspin balls drop as they fly Sidespin balls curve as they fly but corkscrew spin flys regular until the ball hits the table, at which point it jumps to the side. As far as returning corkscrew, it matters depending on the angle of your paddle. If you angle to the right or to the left as the corkscrew ball approaches, it could mean the difference between your paddle "reading" topspin or sidespin. That being said it is hard to put significant amounts of spin on corkscrew serves without being obvious. But to those of us that use them and can place them effectively to take advantage of this spin change when opponents angle left or right, it can be very beneficial.
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