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Types of Spin and serve returns |
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geardaddy 
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 Posted: 05/02/2014 at 11:49am |
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So, it's just differences in terminology. Apparently, my terminology matches larrytt's exactly.
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larrytt
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 11:50am |
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That is a rather odd belief. But others have commented on this already, and if their comments, the video, or my posted article on spin doesn't convince you otherwise, then there's no point in debating it. But I'll continue to use high-toss corkscrewspin serves to befuddle opponents, especially those who refuse to acknowledge their existence! :) -Larry Hodges
Edited by larrytt - 05/02/2014 at 12:05pm |
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DDreamer
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 11:55am |
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I do corkscrew serves and those serves have a particular flight path but the spin on those serves is sidespin (or side-top or side-back) not corkscrew spin! And the spin on the 2 balls in that clip are side and side-top.
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larrytt
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 11:56am |
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Are we being trolled? No serious player would suggest a serve can have top-back spin. (Bold is mine.) They are opposites. Plus I find it hard to believe a serious player would so strenuously insist there is no such thing as corkscrewspin, when it's just another spin axis, with the axis pointing between the two players. (And then he refers to corkscrew as a serve above? I'm confused.) -Larry Hodges
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larrytt
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 11:58am |
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Please explain how you can serve a corkscrew serve without corkscrew spin? Seriously, sidespin and corkscrewspin are two different things. In relation to a player serving, sidespin has an axis that is up and down. Corkscrewspin has an axis that is between the two players. And topspin/backspin has an axis that is left to right. -Larry Hodges |
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geardaddy
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 11:59am |
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+1 The only minor disagreement that I might have is that I don't think it requires a high toss to execute the corkscrew spin serve. It's all about that contact point and the timing to sweep across the ball to produce that corkscrew spin. My experience has been that it's mostly like a no-spin serve to the receiver, but it can cause the receiver to be a little confused such that they give a weak return.
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DDreamer
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:01pm |
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top-back was a typo. side-back was intended. I do pendulum serves as well but those serves don't have 'pendulum spin'.
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suds79
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:02pm |
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100% agree. And with that perfect post, this topic on the matter is about dead. It's like having a debate with someone with their fingers in their ears going "la, la, la. There's no such thing as corkscrew. la, la la." All of us are certainly not going to change this one person's mind. And he won't be able to change the multitude of player's thoughts on the matter. It is what it is. |
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larrytt
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:05pm |
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You don't need a high-toss serve to do a corkscrew serve, but it makes it easier. (And I'll edit out the redundant "serve" in my posting.) -Larry Hodges |
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V-Griper
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:07pm |
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What matters is the axis of rotation. I think your confused because the basic motion for both serves is mostly right to left. The difference is whether you contact the ball mostly on the bottom of the ball, like scooping motion or mostly on the back of the ball, like a wiping motion. With the "corkscrew" serve the axis of rotation is roughly horizontal, as if it were on a string stretching from one side of the table to the other. With a side spin serve the axis of rotation is mostly vertical or straight up and down. However the serve motions look similar. |
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Fulanodetal
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:09pm |
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No corkscrew spin eh?...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq9H27rBf1w I'll grant his serve is way high. But there it is.
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cole_ely
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:10pm |
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In theory, there is no such thing as a serve that is perfectly corkscrew. There has to be some contact to bring the ball forward, which means the axis is always somewhere between cork and top or backspin. Usually the axis of rotation is somewhere in between side and cork. To imagine corkscrew spin, think of the ball rotating the direction that a clock's hands would move. It would be impossible to serve that...even the ball bouncing on the table will knock it into somewhat of a topspin.
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larrytt
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:11pm |
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We're either being trolled or you are being incredibly stubborn, but I'll play along at least one more time. What is a corkscrew serve if it doesn't have corkscrew spin? And don't tell me it has sidespin; that's a sidespin serve. But seriously, I don't understand how you can possibly claim there is no such thing as corkscrewspin; you might as well also deny there is sidespin, or topspin/backspin, since they are all just different spin orientations. So I'll probably just leave you to your beliefs after this, and mourn the death of another promising thread. (This reminds me of a thread long ago where I somehow got into an argument with a guy who insisted you get more spin with sandpaper than with inverted sponge. Why do I respond to such things?) -Larry Hodges
Edited by larrytt - 05/02/2014 at 12:47pm |
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tt4me
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:13pm |
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The number 27 is an arbitrary number of categories but it probably is all that is needed to describe what to do in different cases. The number different axes of rotation is infinite, same with rotational speed. Fortunately there are only two directions of spin.
A corkscrew spin has the axis of rotation pointing roughly along the direction of travel whereas under, top and side spin the axis of rotation is roughly perpendicular to the axis of rotation. I would call the spin of a thrown football a cork screw spin. This should be obvious. |
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Fulanodetal
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:20pm |
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To claim that corkscrew spin serve does not exist due to the impossibility to create a spin perfectly aligned to the front/back axis is to commit the Nirvana Fallacy.
Again, here is a serve that produces the corksrew spin (2:47)...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq9H27rBf1w |
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suds79
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:25pm |
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Yep. Anyone who thinks corkscrew isn't a thing would probably be puzzled by a higher quality (lower bouncing. I understand he was just demonstrating) version of this serve. DDreamer will claim that serve is either side/top or side/bottom. Will that serve have slight top or slight bottom on it? Yes. But it will be very light in either case. But what he'll have a hard time explaining is why the ball doesn't react off his paddle left or right if he thinks there's side on it. It should if there's side right? ;) But no. It's corkscrew. Furthermore, side doesn't react off the table as much as corkscrew. (Larry in the link he provided excellently describes why the 2nd bounce breaks more) How does one explain that if corkscrew doesn't exists? Edited by suds79 - 05/02/2014 at 12:26pm |
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V-Griper
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:27pm |
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+1 to this. That is the effect you want right there. And you can see how contact is made mostly underneath the ball and not on the back side of the ball. TBH this is not a serve you use all the time as was said earlier. however it makes for a good physics problem.  |
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larrytt
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:28pm |
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The three categories of spin - topspin/backspin, sidespin, and corkscrewspin - are just three different axis of rotation, each perpendicular to each other. They are like the XYZ coordinates when mapping something in 3-D. All spins can be represented by using some amount of each of these spins. But the number of variations themselves are infinite. If you want to list all the 27 types of spin (and I plan to blog about this Monday, so you get a sneak preview), just think of it this way. All serves have either topspin, backspin, or neither. All serves have either left sidespin, right sidespin, or neither. All serves have either left corkscrewspin, right corkscrewspin, or neither. So there are three possibilities from the first, three from the second, and three from the third - and so three to the third total possibilities, or 27. In practice, some of these spins aren't really possible to do when serving, such as a pure corkscrewspin. I'm debating whether to go through the long process of going through all 27 and figuring out which are possible in practice. (Though there's a pattern to this that should make it easier.) -Larry Hodges
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DDreamer
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:41pm |
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Unlike you I have not been disrespectful. I have simply maintained that what you are calling corkscrew spin is simply a variety of side-back or side-chop. A serve may have sidespin on a variety of axises but the spin they have is still sidespin (or side-top, side-chop etc). Theoretically it is possible to dilineate other axises and give them titles but that would not stop them being sidespin (or side-back or side-top). From a practical point of view (and this is telling), one receives a corkscrew serve as simply a variety of side-top or side-chop. Of course, as with any serve, you would allow for that individual serve's trajectory etc., but you don't have a special flick or push or loop you would use specifically against 'corkscrew spin'. 'Corkscrew spin' is simply side, side-chop or side-back on a particular axis and there are multiple possible axises.
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Fulanodetal
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:57pm |
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ddreamer...wow!
pretty stubborn. to Larrry, I would be careful not to count "no spin" more than three times. "All serves have either topspin, backspin, or neither. All serves have either left sidespin, right sidespin, or neither. All serves have either left corkscrewspin, right corkscrewspin, or neither. " so in this case its not 3x3, but 3x2, plus "no spin" = 7 |
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larrytt
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 12:59pm |
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The problem, assuming you are sincere in your beliefs, is that it is incorrect to deny the existence of an entire category of spin that others use regularly, and so a thread that could have been a serious discussion about spin has been derailed into us trying to explain something that is basic to table tennis. Perhaps you have your own terminology, and are calling both sidespin and corkscrewspin the same thing, but they are clearly different. For example, a side-backspin serve is very different from any type of corkscrew serve for the simple reason that a side-backspin serve has no corkscrewspin. (Otherwise it'd be a side-backspin-corkscrewspin serve, which is possible - and I can demonstrate the axis orientation in person. I've done this in classes, more as a fun thing than a practical thing.) And so it is just like that discussion long ago where a thread about inverted surfaces was derailed by someone who insisted that sandpaper put more spin on the ball than inverted. The person may have been sincere, but he was incorrect, and the result was a derailed thread. I did take out the word "ignorance" from my previous posting, but that's not actually a bad word. If someone claimed I was ignorant of the inner workings of the financial world, or of opera, or about the Chinese language, they would be correct and I would not be insulted. However, if I sounded disrespectful, I apologize for that - but at the time I was writing it I was pretty sure I was being trolled. We've had some problems with that here recently, as you might know. -Larry Hodges
Edited by larrytt - 05/02/2014 at 1:08pm |
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larrytt
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 1:03pm |
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The "neither" doesn't mean no-spin; it means none of the spin in that particular category. A no-spin serve would come under the neither-neither-neither category. A topspin serve would be topspin-neither-neither. A left sidespin-backspin serve would be backspin-left sidesin-neither. A pure left (or right) corkscrewspin serve (not possible in practice, as explained earlier) would be neither-neither-left (or right) corkscrewspin. And so on. Are any heads exploding? -Larry Hodges
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CraneStyle
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 1:10pm |
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Can we not get all "Sheldon" about the serve definitions ...
The landscape of this topic looked good, but it is now getting bombed by friendly fire... 
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Fulanodetal
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 1:11pm |
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"The "neither" doesn't mean no-spin; it means none of the spin in that particular category. A no-spin serve would come under the neither-neither-neither category. A topspin serve would be topspin-neither-neither. A left sidespin-backspin serve would be backspin-left sidesin-neither. A pure left (or right) corkscrewspin serve (not possible in practice, as explained earlier) would be neither-neither-left (or right) corkscrewspin. And so on.
Are any heads exploding?" I understand now, thanks for explaining. I was rethinking my previous post a bit. I was thinking you probably meant serves that mimic a certain serve but that produce no spin therefore are deceptive in their categories (ex: one that looks like pendulum backspin, but has no spin or close to no spin). But I see that is not what you meant. |
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slevin
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 1:22pm |
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Ever used the co-ordinate system in 4th grade math? Ever used it in 3 axes - X, Y and Z? How about, for fun sakes, we just rename the X axis as axis for backspin/topspin, the Y axis as axis for sidespin & the Z axis as the axis for corkscrewspin? Learnt that any line in a 3D space can project orthogonally on all 3 axes? Well, in this case, the axis of spin of your particular choice serve shall have 3 components: a topspin/backspin component, a sidespin component and a corkscrew spin component.
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CraneStyle
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 1:32pm |
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Sorry, I was late to post my comment and was referring to the arguments to be honests... I am educated to calculate three dimensional vectors moving in free space... This is child's play... 
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NextLevel
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 1:47pm |
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Guys,
No need to be rude to DDreamer. This is either a terminology difference or just a difference in perspective. We aren't going to beat DDreamer 3-0 (I wish!) or have a better loop because of it.
I think what DDreamer is saying is that pure side rotates as most of us know it, but side top is corkscrew in the general sideways direction of the ball motion and side back is corkscrew in in opposition to the sideways direction of the ball. He takes the forward motion as a given while we think of the forward motion as being something other than what the spin is doing to the ball.
Of course, DDreamer's views are more nuanced than what I am saying but I am just trying to bridge the gap. Edited by NextLevel - 05/02/2014 at 1:52pm |
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slevin
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 1:50pm |
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2D vs 3D perhaps?
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larrytt
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 2:03pm |
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It has to be a terminology or language difference. I can't see any other explanation. Anyway, sorry if I sounded disrespectful. It's only been a few days since I was last trolled by you-know-who, who is no longer here. -Larry Hodges
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geardaddy
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Posted: 05/02/2014 at 2:06pm |
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Sure, no disagreement with what you're saying. But, I think using the term "corkscrew" to describe the spin on a certain axis is more descriptive. As others have already stated, we have 3D space with X, Y, and Z axis. X is topspin/backspin, Y is sidespin, and Z is corkscrew spin. DDreamer seems to want to call spin on both Y and Z to both be called "sidespin".
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DDreamer wrote: