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Types of Spin and serve returns |
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larrytt
Silver Member Joined: 04/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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Corkscrewspin is also sometimes called Deviation spin. That's the terminology used in the ITTF coaching handbooks. I believe they also break it down as topspin/backspin, sidespin left or right, and deviation spin left or right. -Larry Hodges
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slevin
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Don't forget to say 'thank you' :
Edited by slevin - 05/02/2014 at 2:19pm |
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larrytt
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Nice link - I'll have to that that in my blog sometime. -Larry
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Baal
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A lot of terminology that is not-intuitive and that obscures the key feature of all most serves; that it is not quite what it appears to be.
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DDreamer
Silver Member Joined: 12/06/2010 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 668 |
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I have been playing for 40 years and until today have never heard of the term 'corkscrew spin'. I have always treated corkscrew serves simply as varieties of sidespin serves because that's what they are! If you hit a corkscrew serve it spins sideways off your blade. Moreover the means of returning a corkscrew serve is fundamentally the same as you would return any sidespin serve. Have I miraculously had no particular trouble against corkscrew serves all these years despite being ignorant of a totally distinct dimension of spin? If it provides a practical purpose for you to call the spin on such serves 'corkscrew spin' as opposed to sidespin then go for it but I don't see the point. When a pupil asks me to go through the possible spins he will have to be able to handle when returning serves (which I think was also the intent behind the OPs original question) I will not have to give a separate module on 'corkscrew spin' (along with talk of arixes and dimensions) rather such spin will be adequately covered in the explanation dealing with returning sidespin. Edited by DDreamer - 05/02/2014 at 2:57pm |
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slevin
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You're a coach? Did you read that link I posted? I'll take a test afterwards on exactly how sidespin is different from corkscrew spin in terms of how ball behaves after bounce on table and after bounce on racket. And what is the best way to counter a corkscrewspin serve (that is different from how you would counter sidespin)... Sorry for coming down at you so hard, (it is partly in harmless jest) but your thought process is so difficult to break through... Edited by slevin - 05/02/2014 at 3:02pm |
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1226 |
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"If it provides a practical purpose for you to call the spin on such serves 'corkscrew spin' as opposed to sidespin then go for it but I don't see the point."
The point is clarity. 3 axis, three directions of spin. The rest are combinations of them with differing degree.
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geardaddy
Super Member Joined: 11/14/2013 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 402 |
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Hey LarryTT, the answer to the unique spin directions is 19, not 27. Try this ... draw circles around the circumference of a ball, starting with the X, Y, Z axis first (so 3 circles around the ball). Then draw circles that go halfway in-between each of those X, Y, and Z axis to represent the combinations between each group of 2 axis. You will get 9 distinct circles (there is overlap in some of the combinations). Thus each circle can spin either direction, and you get 18 different variations. Add one more for the no-spin ball, and you now have 19 distinct variations.
Edited by geardaddy - 05/02/2014 at 3:12pm |
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Krantz
Super Member Joined: 05/14/2009 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 276 |
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Quite an interesting topic and no so trivial that one might think. Problem is that while we may be inclined to describe a tt ball as a 3D object it looks to me that when we discuss its spin alone then more appropriate is treating it as a sphere (or surface of the sphere), which (as I just checked) is a kind of a 2-D object. We need 3-rd dimension (X,Y,Z coordinates) to describe how it moves through space ( forward, upward, etc); but to represent all possible axises of its rotation only two values (X and Y) are enough: If we mark the point at the very top of the ball and imagine that it rotates through the axis that pierces this point then we achieve a spin which is simply and not controversially called a pure sidespin. We can do only two thing with this point: move it forward (or backward which is the same but further along 2-d surface) or move it left(right). If we only move it 90 deg forward we achieve pure corskpin, if we go back and move it only 90 deg left we have pure back/topspin and looks to me that all other possible spins are a combinations of these side/back(top) variations. So corkspin does exists but only in this very special case and all of you are partially right. (Except that i counted 3 special cases times two of spin plus 8 combinations, which gives 14 total general spin categories :D:D) edit: But i forgot to count no-spins.. But under these conditions its doesn't makes a difference along which axis the ball doesn't spin, so i would just add 1 for 15 total. Edited by Krantz - 05/02/2014 at 3:45pm |
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slevin
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Why 2 axes, geardaddy? Try combinations of 3 axes (& get rid of that no-spin thing) and you'll see how you get 27 lines. Edit - I see what you're saying in terms of your circles. Let me finish my day-2-day work here in a couple of hours and I'll clarify.
Edited by slevin - 05/02/2014 at 3:32pm |
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suds79
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Maybe it's the having played 40+ years thing so there's an element of being unable to believe there's a concept that you didn't know about but the bolded part above is just flat out wrong. It's not even an opinion matter. It's simple physics how how the ball reacts off your blade depending on how it's spinning. The link Selvin provided can't make it any clearer. How many sources now in this thread is it stating otherwise to your proposal? Do they have it all wrong and you have it right? Corkscrew: Sidespin: Edited by suds79 - 05/02/2014 at 3:18pm |
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Reinecke
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1054 |
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If you are looking for a reason to explain it, think about this: Corkscrew spin is invisible! Until it hits the table that is... Backspin balls float as they fly Topspin balls drop as they fly Sidespin balls curve as they fly but corkscrew spin flys regular until the ball hits the table, at which point it jumps to the side. As far as returning corkscrew, it matters depending on the angle of your paddle. If you angle to the right or to the left as the corkscrew ball approaches, it could mean the difference between your paddle "reading" topspin or sidespin. That being said it is hard to put significant amounts of spin on corkscrew serves without being obvious. But to those of us that use them and can place them effectively to take advantage of this spin change when opponents angle left or right, it can be very beneficial.
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Reinecke
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1054 |
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Thanks for the image suds. This helps explain what I wrote above. If they angled the paddle to either side it would "read" top or backspin, causing the ball to pop up or drop down.
Edited by Reinecke - 05/02/2014 at 3:31pm |
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Reinecke
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btw, nothing derails a thread more than bringing up the topic of sidespin This is from the thread "topspin balls can not be attacked":
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=66169&PN=2&title=topspin-balls-cannot-be-attacked
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BRS
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Moving back slightly closer to the OP --
How do you good players judge the incoming spin and react when you are receiving? I doubt you consciously think 'It's side-top! Flip it!' or some front-brain process like that. I was taught (unsuccessfully so far) to mirror the server's paddle face at contact. Unfortunately I am spatial-relationships challenged in my brain, so even if you gave me five minutes I would have a hard time figuring out what angle and direction of my paddle face mirrors his. Is there a commonsense rule like if the ball is spinning this way touch it on this part to cancel the spin? |
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slevin
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Basically: assume at each orthogonal spin axis, you can categorize the infinite possible values in 3 categories: {topspin, 0, backspin} {left sidespin, 0, right sidespin} {clockwise corkscrewspin, 0, anti-clockwise corkscrewspin} Now, each serve shall have a spin axis with 3 orthogonal components (each of which can have one of these 3 basic values). Now, your no-spin serve shall be 1 of 27 different basic combinations. Or am I writing while high on a Friday afternoon?
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Reinecke
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Could be both And yeah you got it.
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suds79
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This question you mentioned immediately reminded me of something Joola coach Richard McAfee was talking about here from 8:09-8:50 Link directly to that point: or here's the whole video and you can go to that point. Edited by suds79 - 05/02/2014 at 4:02pm |
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larrytt
Silver Member Joined: 04/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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There really are 27 combinations of topspin/backspin, sidespin left and right, and corkscrewspin left and right. I'll list them in my blog on Monday. (I'm too busy right now, as noted in my blog this morning.) I've done this before, and I'm hoping I can find one of those listings rather than have to tediously write them out again. I think you may be missing the eight combinations of all three spins - such as a topspin-sidespin left-corkscrewspin left serve. (Yes, you can do all three. I'll explain this in my blog on -Larry Hodges
Edited by larrytt - 05/05/2014 at 1:44pm |
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larrytt
Silver Member Joined: 04/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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Nice video. It's always fun to steal presentation ideas from other coaches. I think one of the highlights of my coaching career came in 1990-91, when I was Dan Seemiller's assistant coach all summer long for his summer camps. I volunteered to give a lecture on serving, and I noticed that Dan was taking notes, more than even the students. I asked him about it afterwards, and he said he liked the way I taught it, and was taking notes for his own lectures! -Larry Hodges
Edited by larrytt - 05/02/2014 at 4:29pm |
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pingpongpaddy
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In contrast to DDreamer I have been aware of corkscrew spin and side spin for 40+ years
One of the problems here is that we are not allowing for the fact that usually corkscrew and sidespin are not usually pure but are blends of the 2 spins with the axis of spin tilted at around 45 degrees. So ball can sometimes both curve through the air a bit and kick sideways off the table a bit. But if you can visualise, Say, an HZW type(pure)corkscrew wide to rightie's fh You'll notice that if the righty is hooking slightly then effectively he is receiving topspin. If the righty tries to fade it down the line, the more he comes to the left of the pole, the more he will experience backspin. If he gets right on the pole it will be little spin. However as there is likely to be some element of normal side there may be some kick off the receiver's rubber which will be affected by whether racket angle is open or closed. Its quite difficult to work out what the effective spin received merely by thinking about it. |
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geardaddy
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Your example here demonstrates where the combinations in terms of groups of 2 axis overlap and are really the same thing. A topspin/left-sidespin serve is really the same thing as a right-corkscrew/left-sidespin serve. I don't think it's intuitive to think about the spin beyond the combination of 2 axis. An analogy would be compass points, where the first level is North, South, West, and East. The second level is NorthWest, SouthWest, NorthEast, and SouthEast. The 3rd level is North-by-NorthWest, West-by-NorthWest, and etc. Well, I don't think it's useful to delineate further beyond that 2nd level when explaining the variations. Draw the circles on the ball like I described and you'll see what I'm talking about.
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larrytt
Silver Member Joined: 04/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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I've done that before. Drawing circles is no different than finding the axis of rotation. As I noted, I don't think you are taking combinations of three spins into account. I'll go over the 27 theoretical combinations on Monday (not all are practically possible, such as a pure corkscrewspin), and there will be no redundancies; each will have a different axis of rotation (or no rotation, with no-spin), and each will be a different combo of the three main axis of rotation. (I'm pretty sure the two spins you mention above are distinct, but I'll look at it more closely before I post on Monday.) -Larry Hodges
Edited by larrytt - 05/02/2014 at 4:40pm |
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Fulanodetal
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"One of the problems here is that we are not allowing for the fact that usually corkscrew and sidespin are not usually pure but are blends of the 2 spins with the axis of spin tilted at around 45 degrees."
Yes, that's why I alluded to the Nirvana Fallacy..."The nirvana fallacy is the informal fallacy of comparing actual things with unrealistic, idealized alternatives. It can also refer to the tendency to assume that there is a perfect solution to a particular problem." In other words, simply because we can't realistically produce pure corkscrew spin, doesn't mean it does not exist in practical terms. It is not a type of sidespin as DDreamer wants to claim.
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in2spin
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in a absolutely perfect environment, corkscrew spin - you would be able to parry/hit it, and it would go straight back, since there would be no side or topspin (on any axis) to deal with....however, it would bounce sideways upon landing on the opponent's side?
:)
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DDreamer
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I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Reinecke
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Yessir thats right. The real question is would the spin reverse??? Like if it is coming at you with right corkscrew, would it continue rotating the same way or reverse when it dug into the rubber? I go with reverse. I think
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Reinecke
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While you may be able to get by returning serves with corkscrew by treating them like sidespin, I think is pretty shortsighted to completely overlook an entire category of spin. If you would like to remain ignorant to corkscrew spin and fully understanding it, then that is fine. But people on this thread are trying to discuss the benefits of it and how it affects the game, so please refrain from bashing the whole topic. My corkscrew serves will continue to baffle opponents who try to treat them as sidespin.
Edited by Reinecke - 05/02/2014 at 5:09pm |
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BRS
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God bless you suds - that video is super. I'm sorry if OP got little from his thread, or anybody else except a chance to argue about geometry and physics, but to me that video is worth the two hours I wasted on the forum today.
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beeray1
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When I serve, I exclusively use Service spin every time
I thought what actually defined the type of spin was the axis on and direction in which the ball is spinning. Corkscrew spin is definitely a different axis to sidespin. Those two are as much the same as topspin is to sidespin. I think the grey area is when people say corkscrew/under or side/under. But it's pretty clear-cut that corkscrew is it's own thing. my 2c.
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