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Advice Needed (Low Level) |
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mickd
Forum Moderator Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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Posted: 07/05/2014 at 12:17pm |
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Firstly, I wanted to say thank you to the people that helped me with my previous thread, "Advice on Footwork".
There was a lot of great advice in there, and as per what most people were saying, I decided to take it back to the beginning. If you could once again have a look at these videos, and give me any advice, it would be very much appreciated. Table tennis is a great sport, and so far I have enjoyed it so much. But recently I've really been struggling to improve. Every time I miss a ball in practice (when practicing by myself), I get really agitated. I live in a relatively rural part of Japan, and while there are other people I can play with, I don't really know any coaches (especially any that can speak English). I guess you guys are my last hope, haha! Here's the first video. It's me doing a simple forehand down the line. Nothing fancy. Here's the second video. I'm doing a simple backhand going cross court, then down the line. If you have any comments, please feel free. No need to hold back :) I know I'm not a good player! Also, if you would like me to try and particular drill, please let me know. I'll use this thread in the future for any new videos I post :)
Edited by mickd - 07/05/2014 at 12:18pm |
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1583 |
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It's easy to get agitated when you are alone. Practicing with a partner is just much more fun. Are there any other players around you who want to get better and would practice with you? Practicing with a robot all the time can actually make you worse. You really should do multiball to get the feel of balls coming off a paddle, and match the visual to the spin. Also it helps to do match-play-type drills like third ball. One player serves, the receiver sends a set spin to a set place, server attacks the 3rd ball, and play out the point. The most basic is serve underspin, get a long push back to the FH, and loop the push. But you need a partner for that. If a partner is simply not available, try shadow practice without the ball, then turn on the robot and try to keep the stroke the way you shadow practiced it. In place of coaching I suggest you sign up for an internet coaching service, or something you can model strokes on besides youtube clips of pros. I subscribe to TTedge, because I find it useful that they show common mistakes and not just perfect pro strokes. But lots of people like PingSkills too, and there are probably others. You obviously have a camera, so you can video yourself and compare your stroke to what you see on TTedge or Pingskills.
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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Might be a good idea to start playing your BH from the right hand side of the table, hitting balls diagonally across the table to the far left hand corner. BH training typically starts this way. ...
Vice versa for your FH... You're on your way... Edited by CraneStyle - 07/05/2014 at 3:46pm |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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SmackDAT
Platinum Member Joined: 01/01/2012 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 2231 |
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I would advise using your legs a lot more, as your shots are fairly weak. Right leg -> left leg weight transfer with forehand. Also bend your knees more. As long as you're 150cm+ you need to bend knees to make sure you have the highest consistency. I am 180cm, and I find if I don't bend my knees, I block/play shots around my lower hip down to my crotch, so once you bend you knees you start to play shots around the chest, where the head is closer to the bat which leads to higher consistency. Give it a try, you might end up with a very strong forehand on par to moi :)
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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+1. You are clearly on your way. Try to see if you can hit the ball harder while closing the paddle more. That will be your topspin stroke. Then see if you can contact different points on the ball. And take CraneStyle's advice.. and BRS... Smackdat can wait . For the backhand, search for the William Henzell video titled Backhand Topspin vs. Block. Study it religiously for 25 hours every day including when sleeping and copy every elbow and wrist adjustment.
Edited by NextLevel - 07/05/2014 at 8:58pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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mickd
Forum Moderator Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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Thanks BRS. I've actually never heard of ttEDGE before. I just looked them up and woah, their videos seem quite good. I think I will subscribe to them. In terms of a practice partner, I usually play against other people about 4 hours a week. Usually we just do rally warm ups (cross court, down the line with backhand and forehand counterhits), then like actual match practice. They're very friendly people, so next time I'll ask them to try some 3rd ball drills.
Thanks CraneStyle. That's actually not a bad idea! I think the reason why I had it set to that side is because I'm left handed, and having the ball come on the left feels a little more natural for my forehand. As for why I had the backhand coming from that side.... I just didn't think about changing it after finishing up with my forehand.. but I'll do it next time :)
Thanks SmackDAT. For my next video I was actually planning to speed up the stroke, and add a little bit of body movement. At the moment, I find if I try to add in body moment, my accuracy drops drastically... So I decided to take that factor out for now :) I'm also 180cms tall, and I will definitely try and bend my knees a little more next time. I think in my previous video I overdid the bending, and this time I didn't bend them enough! Cheers.
Thanks NextLevel. I'll make that my next video! I looked up that video by William Henzell, and it was great. That's actually why I've decided to subscribe to ttEDGE! He mentioned a few things that I not only didn't know, but I thought the opposite was the correct way. Thank you everyone.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Yeah, I was going to tell you that you are probably gripping your paddle too tightly, but since you have joined TTEdge, I will let him handle that.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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I agree with smackDAT, use more legs. Also be more relaxed and balanced. Use your right arm to stay balanced - not a good idea to just leave it dangling. PingSkills has excellent pointers for beginners on youtube. (Also heard good things about TTEdge - but never used it).
Use less arm and more body. Good luck |
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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kurokami
Gold Member Joined: 11/08/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1277 |
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there's a lot of stuff your fellow members are listing to do, but I think the first thing you need to do is fix your arm stroke and contact method.
forehand You're pushing the ball with your forearm going up and out. It should be moving along with your natural elbow range, folding in so you strike and "cut" the ball rather than brushing inwards. At 0:08-0:09, it looks like you know you're supposed to be using this motion, but once the balls come, you go back to pushing inwards with the elbow going up. 0:02-0:03 and 0:32 were your best fhs. even going out, notice how the forearm snaps up without the extra elbow movement compared to other shots. backhand Similarly, the backhand should also be moving more along your natural range of motion, fold in, turn out. See 0:05, 0:13-0:15. Try to review and remember those. Those were your better bhs in this series. This one correction on your forearm range of motion will improve both your forehand and backhand a lot and help in building your touch. Your current technique will only work very a specific subset of shots though the forehand demonstrates slightly more carry. However, since it's the wrong method, it will be slow, not possible to spin hard, and will have trouble lifting heavy under. in japan, there should be many high level players. i played random collegiate players in JTTAA and they were mostly all 2250-2400 on avg. a lot of TT shops will also have good players on their staff and there's usually a club offering lessons nearby.
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Viscaria
H3N/T05 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65345&KW=&title=feedback-kurokami |
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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@mickd,
I think with your forehand shots you need to sync your elbow and body more, so that you rotate your hip along with your elbow. This will be highlighted in the TTEdge and Pingskill videos, and have been mentioned by other members. One way to assist in getting used to this is to put your right hand index finger on the bottom tip of your left elbow, and maintain the connection when you hit a normal forehand drive or light top spin shots. For a right handed player, the opposite is applied. This training method will also help to address the idea of keeping your elbow close to your body. There are other ways of doing this, but this is something I came up with which I find very effective. Bend both knees more, and reduce your head bopping up and down, as by minimising this head bopping you will increase your balance and thus increase shot stability. I am not sure if you are gripping your racket the most effective way. You should look into this ASAP, because it it utmost critical. This not only relates to how tight you might be gripping. If you can, get more involved with people. The best way of learning is with people as they can provide you feedback and it is a direct opportunity to learn from them. Don't worry if they can't speak the right language, there are other ways of communication :) body language and gesture. Do some shadow moves, start from slow speed, in front of the mirror. Observe yourself on various angles - front, side. Adjust yourself as fit to the style you are after. This is very useful. Also useful is getting yourself acquainted with the ball. I find a lot of beginners neglect bouncing the ball on their racket. This extends to advanced beginners and intermediates. It will help with getting used to the ball feeling, a lead in to control. Take note, this is akin to footballers juggling with the ball. Good luck! Edited by hithithit - 07/06/2014 at 3:17am |
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mickd
Forum Moderator Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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Haha yes! That's definitely something I need to work on. Sometimes when I get really into it, I start to grip the racket really tightly. So tight that it actually leaves a noticeable mark on the side of my index finger.
Thanks jrscatman. Yes, for my next video that will be what I concentrate on. :)
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply! Looking again at my videos, and other videos online, I think the problem I have is that I'm not doing a proper counterhit. It seems like I'm trying to do more of a topspin looping style hit, where I contact the ball with more of an open bat, then close the bat on the follow through. I'm also doing too much of a follow through, going past the other side of my face most the time. I'll work on this in my next video :)
There are unfortunately no table tennis shops in my area. At least not any dedicated to or stocking mostly table tennis equipment. I've also been asking around, and besides the place I currently play at, there aren't any places that I can go to within reasonable biking distance (I don't have a car). Some of the players there though, are quite crazy! Maybe sometime I'll see if I can record some of their games and let you guys see. This club though, doesn't offer any formal lessons. Their members do kind of give some advice here and there to the people that are attending on the day.
That's a really interesting technique. I just tried it in front of the mirror. I'll keep that in mind for my next practice session, too. Cheers.
One thing I have noticed is that I'm not staying bent over between shots. I think that's what causes my head to bop up and down.
I think my grip (besides the tightness) is ok. What part of my grip do you think I should look into? I have been told before though, to keep my wrist straight during counterhit rallies. So maybe that's something I need to keep in mind, too :)
The people I play with are really friendly, and I'm lucky to be able to play with them for up to 4 hours a week :)
I used to do a lot of bouncing exercises about 6 months ago. Lately though, I've kind of pushed it aside. Maybe I should get back into it :) Cheers!
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yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
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use your left arm to help your body rotate when doing forehand drills. on your backhand, flex your right arm but do not make it so tense.
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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It seems like not much of your thumb is on the blade itself. This is not to say your grip is incorrect, but I like you to think about how you would be holding the racket from the moment you have produced a forehand serve. Perhaps you have already thought about this, but I am not sure. So if you serve holding the racket by the blade between your thumb and index finger, then you only have a split second to transit to your shakehand grip. Can you transit to the way you are now holding in quick time and with ease? So with this in mind, practice your forehand rally with how you would grip the racket after serving. This way, it is more practical :)
Maybe. It depends on what you are counter-hitting and what you want to do. Though, a good start is to relax.
I hope so. |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5039 |
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When parked really close to table (or over the table) and taking ball on rise for a FH, I would urge you to modify your swing to hinge on elbow instead of the shoulder. Usually, that close to the table you do not have a lot of time. Using the elbow as the rotation point saves a lot of time and with a wide stance and a little body, it has a lot of control. Very compact shot and easy to recover.
Save the bigger swings for when you are away from table.
Right now, your BH has more hope for you in quicker payoff. Consider NOT extending your arm to get to the ball. That takes away a lot of your control. Unless the ball is not coming at you fast, the long stroke and big use of wrist will get you to miss a lot of shots. AND you are not generating a lot of spin/control with it.
(BH) Think about impacting the ball a little closer to your body and with a shorter stroke. BH doesn't need much of a backswing, just needs a little momentum from your body, whether that is from L-R mini weight transfer or a mini step forward. Use the elbow as a hinge and keep the shoulder stabilized once it is in place. The advantage of the BH is that when you get timing down and your stroke worked... that you can take it off the bounce (quick shot that robs opponent of time) and that it is VERY difficult to tell where you are hitting (little backswing).
The longer stroke you are using now has disadvantages of little control to you, but it is training you how to time all those joint movements. That is something that you would need to work on down the line. I would ask you to consider what it is you want and go from there. Think of how much payoff you will have when your BH preference vs a light topspin ball is a very compact BH that is still pretty fast. That will let you stay in those BANG-Bang BH to BH rallies and still give you options. In those BH to BH at the table, there isn't any time for the kind of stroke you are practicing. I think you already get the positioning and looking over the ball, if you could develop a very short swing BH for at the table play, you could very quickly do better on that wing.
There are longer BH strokes worth learning and training now, but they will not make you money right away in a match. (BH loop vs underspin and BH loop vs incoming topspin at mid-distance) They take more time to get to a point where they are reliable in a match.
Some coaches will want you to work on everything bit by bit for the future and some coaches teach progression. Both sides have some value to what they are saying. You have ot consider what you want for now, next month, next year, and a few years from now.
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patrick1v
Gold Member Joined: 06/16/2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1497 |
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first if you are doing a top spin forehand shot the start of your swing is too high with your
wrist pointing upwards.the head of your racket should point downwards at the start of the swing so you need to open the arm more and start the swing just outside your left knee then go forward and up while transferring your weight from your left to right foot.with the backhand always practice from the backhand corner.make this a habit. |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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I am just going to focus on your grip because there are some decisions I think you need to make now at the beginning of your learning cycle.
First I think you need to understand the the basic movements of the wrist and forearm. So read this for a second. FH- For your FH the most important position is ulnar deviation(UD). More specifically neutral UD. That is with no flexion or extension associated with it. For example in your FH vid you have to much extension of your wrist along with the UD. Generally you want to avoid adding any flexion or extension to your wrist for you basic FH stroke. I usually find that when players hold a good neutral UD grip it tends corrects allot of other stroke problems. Your paddle angle adjustments should be made by pronating or supinating your forearm. Note that this is just a basic framework to get started and you will tweak things as you go. BH- This is where things get complicated. There are different grips for the BH. You can use your FH grip to hit your BH or you can opt to modify your grip by rotating the paddle for more bias. A third option is to modify your grip in between the neutral and BH biased grip and use that position for both sides. Most higher level players tend to switch between the neutral grip(FH) and some degree of bias on the BH. Wrist movement starts with holding UD in combination with flexion, then while holding UD move from the flexed position to the extended position. There is allot more involving the legs, torso and arm prior to the action at the wrist but I'm not into writing a book right now. Besides others have covered it in detail already.
Edited by V-Griper - 07/06/2014 at 9:06pm |
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DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
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mickd
Forum Moderator Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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Thanks yogi_bear! Please have a look at my next video, too!
Thanks hitbitbit for the clarification :) I'll look into it!
Thanks BH-Man for the reply. Based on what everyone has been saying, I'll make that a point for my next video. Cheers!
Having another look at my video, it seems like this is exactly the problem I was having. My head and shoulders move forward because I'm not waiting for the ball to come to me. I'm reaching for the ball in almost every shot. I'll work on this in the next video, and once I get used to it, I'll try taking the ball off the bounce :) Cheers.
After doing a lot more research, it looks like what I currently have is not quite a counterhit and not quite a top spin forehand shot as well. I love doing top spin shots, and I think I'll make a video trying it out after I get my counterhits looking right :) Thank you for the advice, and if you have time, please check out that video once I get up to it!
Thanks V-Griper! Woah, this is probably one of the most technical posts I've ever seen. I had to read it a few times to understand it, haha. But what you said makes perfect sense. I think the reason why I had so much extension in my wrist was because I was trying to go down the line with my forehand shots. How do you think I should adjust between going cross court and going down the line? Is it more to do with body position? Like having your shoulders slightly more turned so that your arm faces the 'down the line' side of the table, without having to add extension to your wrist? Thank you.
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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It's a combination of torso angle relative to the table and when you make contact with the ball. For down the line shots you would wan't to rotate your torso more to the left with your left foot set back a little more. So if you hold your paddle out to the side so that it is parallel with the end line of the table with tip pointing to your left that would be 0 degress. Now let's say you rotate through 90 degrees so now the paddle is pointing down the center line of the table. The ball will go perpendicular to wherever the paddle is facing. If you make contact with the ball at 0 degrees then the ball will go straight, if you make contact at 5 degrees the ball will start angling to the right etc etc. You don't really need to think about all that though. Just hold NUD and let yourself adjust to hit the ball where you want. My main point is to hold your grip/wrist position constant for now and adjust your body around it instead of trying to keep your body constant while making adjustments with your wrist. example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2lrYRfaRTA Sorry about the picture quality but it's the only one I know of with WLQ counter hitting. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
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mickd, how long have you been playing?
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mickd
Forum Moderator Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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Thanks V-Griper. Another well written, easy to understand post :) Sorry it took me awhile to reply, I've been a little busy with work.
Hi Baal. I played my first game about 10 months ago when I first moved to Japan. At that point I wasn't very serious about it, and for a few months, I just played it whenever I had time. Then as the winter months came, I kind of stopped playing. The last few months I've been really getting into it though. About 2 months ago I found a sporting center that had people come and play table tennis twice a week. So I've been going there every opportunity I get. Since I never had a coach, and I kind of just did my own thing to improve, I started to hit a wall with my skill level. So a few weeks ago I came to the conclusion that I really need to go back to the basics if I want get better. Really work on my technique and footwork. And that's why I made the other thread (Advice on Footwork). With all the great advice I got from the MyTT members there, I realised I needed to go back even further to the fundamentals. And here I am with this thread, once again asking for advice :) Sorry about the long reply, hehe.
Edited by mickd - 07/09/2014 at 4:30am |
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