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Deciphering spin on serves

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    Posted: 07/07/2014 at 6:24pm
Deciphering service spin assuming serve was hidden (a common occurrence when a LH receiver is facing a RH server who serves from his right hip or does a short kick serve to the receiver's FH):

Assume that you could only see the ball from just after contact (with server's bat). 

For that set of returns, I find it easier to decipher spin of those serves where first bounce is not near table edge (typical short serves, for example). Backspin serves go in a straight, low line from serve contact point to table. Topspin serves sometimes have a bit of curve in the trajectory from serve contact point to table.

However, many servers can serve short effectively with 1st bounce near their table edge (as if they were doing a long serve) - see bogeyhunter's serves in a few of his videos for example. So you pretty much have to look at it's trajectory after ball bounce.

If such serves are hidden, how do you, by looking at ball trajectory, determine whether they are topspin, backspin or no-spin?

A close example of such serve trajectory (even though it is not hidden in this case and not a short serve) is in the following set of serves at 1:45 and then at 2:53 in the video below - if you couldn't see serve action, how would you know which one had backspin on and which one had topspin?:




Edited by slevin - 07/07/2014 at 6:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2014 at 7:24pm
When receiving a hidden I just catch the ball and ask that they not hide the serve.  I can catch a lot of balls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2014 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

When receiving a hidden I just catch the ball and ask that they not hide the serve.  I can catch a lot of balls.

Yeah, but assume that that won't fly - pretend that it is a refree-d match.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTFrenzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2014 at 9:00pm
1. Try to see the stamp of the ball as we used to do with the old rules

2. If you cant see the stamp, then backspin always stays on the air a little more (top of the 1st bounce) and decelerates (tens of seconds or miliseconds, but enough to judge if you are concentrated) after the 1st bounce (topspin accelerates) because backspin rotation resists gravity a bit compared to topspin which gets reinforced (sorry about my bad english its the best expression i can come up with right now) by gravity

Moreover, backspin is always a slower serve than topspin or in other words a "less lively" one

The difficult thing is to judge between no spin/ light backspin and sideunder/sidetop. Before the hidden serve rule those serves where extremely difficult to recognize especially when the server has practiced enough to give the same curve and placing it in the same spots


Edited by TTFrenzy - 07/07/2014 at 9:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2014 at 11:38pm
CROSSING RACKETS RULE

Never follow the ball, follow the server's racket hand. You shall be able to read the hand's trajectories after a wile.

There is a mouth-to-mouth training guidance to help the receiver to determine which spin /no spin is on the ball.

Every trainer proficient in Russia will tell this guidance to the students from very early lesson, that is

--

    Follow the direction of the server's racket and aim your raket's head forth towards the point where the server's racket is going to.
    "Crossing Rackets Rule", remember and follow the guidance invariably...



I was about to present a corresponding scheme to depict the guidance, I could not find it on my phone storage as yet.

JUST A BYNOTE.
TEACHING SHORT EFFECTUALITY.


Regretfully, I have now got to understand, --most of forumers here are baD LIsteners. Any efforts by me, however willing and sincere, to educate nonsporty audience via Internet communications is a TIME WASTE.
Hence, I better like speaking to youth audience of tender age, who facing near to me, listening all words from me, doing all lessons after me.
   Internet forums is most probably unfit place to give pingpang lessons, I suspect. Sorry.

Edited by igorponger - 07/07/2014 at 11:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTFrenzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2014 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

CROSSING RACKETS RULE

Never follow the ball, follow the server's racket hand. You shall be able to read the hand's trajectories after a wile.

There is a mouth-to-mouth training guidance to help the receiver to determine which spin /no spin is on the ball.

Every trainer proficient in Russia will tell this guidance to the students from very early lesson, that is

--

    Follow the direction of the server's racket and aim your raket's head forth towards the point where the server's racket is going to. " Crossing Rackets Rule", remember and follow invariably...



I about to present a corresponding scheme to depict the guidance, I could not find it on my phone storage as yet.


JUST A BYNOTE.
TEACHING SHORT EFFECTULITY.


Regretfully, I have now got to understand, --most of forumers here are baD LIsteners. Any efforts by me, however willing and sincere, to educate nonsporty audience via Internet communications is a TIME WASTE.
Hence, I better like speaking to youth audience of tender age, who facing near to me, listening all words from me, doing all lessons after me.
   Internet forums is most probably unfit place to give pingpang lessons, I suspect. Sorry.



Assume that you could only see the ball from just after contact (with server's bat). 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2014 at 12:12am
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

CROSSING RACKETS RULE

Never follow the ball, follow the server's racket hand. You shall be able to read the hand's trajectories after a wile.....


Don't agree at all.  I played during the "hidden serve" era, and you had to learn to judge spin by it's trajectory too.  It is a very useful skill to understand how different spin causes the ball to bounce in specific ways.  I've seen some very clever serves where just following the motion can lead you down a bad path.

I am a proponent of starting your serve receive by standing close in to the table such that you can get a very good view of the ball.  It actually makes a difference in being able to see the spin on the ball very early.  Yes, it also helps to be able to focus better on a server's motion to possibly spot the deception in their motion and have a clue as to the spin that is on the ball.

You can actually spot a no-spin serve quite well just by watching the ball closely.  A ball that is spinning is harder to judge just by looking closely.  So, relying on some understanding of how the ball bounces is very helpful with spinny serves.  For instance, a backspin ball will tend to "float" between each bounce.  A topspin ball will tend to "run" when it bounces.  A sidespin ball will tend to curve as it bounces.

Easier said than done, I know.  Practice, practice, practice.  Remember there isn't just one way to return a serve.  But, if you know what spin is on the ball very early, then you've got the advantage on the server.




Edited by geardaddy - 07/08/2014 at 12:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2014 at 12:19am
Fortunately I don´t have any problem with hidden serves. I just put this to contact the ball and the job is done. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2014 at 12:26am
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

Fortunately I don´t have any problem with hidden serves. I just put this to contact the ball and the job is done. 




What, you mean using the illegal rubber sheet with worn and uneven surface?  Ha. Ha. JK! Wink

You may be able to get some serves back more easily, but the problem with SP is that you'll have a harder time controlling the 3rd ball.  Sorry. Cry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2014 at 12:37am
The black rubber is not a short pimple. It´s a long pimple OX. And I don´t use the LP in forehand, I use it as a rpb player does, just pushing or cutting the opponent serve.
The forehand rubber is this one (yes, I play with 2 pimples rubber... Pinch)




Regarding the 3rd ball I have absolutely no problem with it. Generally my opponent is not able to attack my reception, pushing it back to me (tsutsuki). So I can choose to shoto in angle or forehand smash the ball. 


Edited by TT newbie - 07/08/2014 at 12:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2014 at 1:18am
Originally posted by geardaddy geardaddy wrote:

Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

CROSSING RACKETS RULE

Never follow the ball, follow the server's racket hand. You shall be able to read the hand's trajectories after a wile.....


Don't agree at all.  I played during the "hidden serve" era, and you had to learn to judge spin by it's trajectory too.  It is a very useful skill to understand how different spin causes the ball to bounce in specific ways.  I've seen some very clever serves where just following the motion can lead you down a bad path.

I am a proponent of starting your serve receive by standing close in to the table such that you can get a very good view of the ball.  It actually makes a difference in being able to see the spin on the ball very early.  Yes, it also helps to be able to focus better on a server's motion to possibly spot the deception in their motion and have a clue as to the spin that is on the ball.

You can actually spot a no-spin serve quite well just by watching the ball closely.  A ball that is spinning is harder to judge just by looking closely.  So, relying on some understanding of how the ball bounces is very helpful with spinny serves.  For instance, a backspin ball will tend to "float" between each bounce.  A topspin ball will tend to "run" when it bounces.  A sidespin ball will tend to curve as it bounces.

Easier said than done, I know.  Practice, practice, practice.  Remember there isn't just one way to return a serve.  But, if you know what spin is on the ball very early, then you've got the advantage on the server.




Geardaddy, you are absolutely right.  I agree completely.  If you rely excessively on just watching the hand movements you can be easily fooled by misjudging the AMOUNT of spin which is very easy to disguise.  If the spin is not quite as heavy as you think, for example, you will pop up or put the ball some other place than you intend, and the result is bad. Ma Lin made a habit of tormenting people this way.  You have to learn to read the trajectory of the ball and more specifically the deviation in the trajectory caused by the spin.  As you mentioned, this is not easy against someone with really sneaky serves, but those of us who played a lot in hidden serve era had to learn to do this.  A former US national champion once told me that sometimes you just have to wait a bit longer for the spin on the ball to reveal itself though subtle changes in trajectory. 

When I read the previous comment that one should only look at at the hand movement, I just had to shake my head, it was so ridiculously misguided.  The level of play does not have to get all that high to reach the point where relying strictly on hand movements just isn't enough.  When my opponent approaches serve return like that, it makes my day. 

TT is not all about how macho you are.  It is also how much you practice the fine points.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2014 at 1:21am
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

The black rubber is not a short pimple. It´s a long pimple OX. And I don´t use the LP in forehand, I use it as a rpb player does, just pushing or cutting the opponent serve.
The forehand rubber is this one (yes, I play with 2 pimples rubber... Pinch)




Regarding the 3rd ball I have absolutely no problem with it. Generally my opponent is not able to attack my reception, pushing it back to me (tsutsuki). So I can choose to shoto in angle or forehand smash the ball. 

So, you use LP on your backhand to passively return and rely on your opponents lack of ability to read spin and force a mistake or weak return.  Well, it is a strategy that works to a point.  But, you are handicapped in being able to attack a serve.  And as you say, "generally my opponent is not able to attack", but what happens when they do.  Again, you are at a disadvantage because it is more difficult to control a well-looped ball with SP or LP.

I get how LP or SP can help to cause others to make a mistake.  But, I wouldn't ever recommend someone who is developing as a player to switch to LP or SP to cover up a weakness in their game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2014 at 1:40am
Originally posted by geardaddy geardaddy wrote:

So, you use LP on your backhand to passively return and rely on your opponents lack of ability to read spin and force a mistake or weak return.  Well, it is a strategy that works to a point.  But, you are handicapped in being able to attack a serve.  And as you say, "generally my opponent is not able to attack", but what happens when they do.  Again, you are at a disadvantage because it is more difficult to control a well-looped ball with SP or LP.

I get how LP or SP can help to cause others to make a mistake.  But, I wouldn't ever recommend someone who is developing as a player to switch to LP or SP to cover up a weakness in their game.
The weakness in my game has always been controlling anything using inverted rubbers. I used them for 20 years, as I said in the other topic.
And as I learned to play with SP in the beginning it is my natural game. I really like fast loops against me. Blocking is what I do best. However, when opponent is able to understand my game and execute slow, spinny lops, I agree with your point. This is the worst ball for a SP player. But in my category (in my region) I can count 1, maybe 2 players capable of playing like that. 
And finally I go to numbers. 20 years with inverted and only 3 golds. Now 6 months with SP and already 3 golds. More efective and more fun, there´s nothing to argue with my results.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2014 at 9:35am
Originally posted by geardaddy geardaddy wrote:

Don't agree at all.  I played during the "hidden serve" era, and you had to learn to judge spin by it's trajectory too.  It is a very useful skill to understand how different spin causes the ball to bounce in specific ways.  I've seen some very clever serves where just following the motion can lead you down a bad path.

I am a proponent of starting your serve receive by standing close in to the table such that you can get a very good view of the ball.  It actually makes a difference in being able to see the spin on the ball very early.  Yes, it also helps to be able to focus better on a server's motion to possibly spot the deception in their motion and have a clue as to the spin that is on the ball.

You can actually spot a no-spin serve quite well just by watching the ball closely.  A ball that is spinning is harder to judge just by looking closely.  So, relying on some understanding of how the ball bounces is very helpful with spinny serves.  For instance, a backspin ball will tend to "float" between each bounce.  A topspin ball will tend to "run" when it bounces.  A sidespin ball will tend to curve as it bounces.

Easier said than done, I know.  Practice, practice, practice.  Remember there isn't just one way to return a serve.  But, if you know what spin is on the ball very early, then you've got the advantage on the server.

I find this quite hard to do, and it means you can't take the ball early. The bounce is also highly table dependent in our area.... some clubs use old tables that are glossy and smooth, some use matt and grippy tables... the difference is huge!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stavros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2014 at 10:03am
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

When receiving a hidden I just catch the ball and ask that they not hide the serve.  I can catch a lot of balls.
I do the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2014 at 10:16am
Originally posted by haggisv haggisv wrote:

Originally posted by geardaddy geardaddy wrote:

Don't agree at all.  I played during the "hidden serve" era, and you had to learn to judge spin by it's trajectory too.  It is a very useful skill to understand how different spin causes the ball to bounce in specific ways.  I've seen some very clever serves where just following the motion can lead you down a bad path.

I am a proponent of starting your serve receive by standing close in to the table such that you can get a very good view of the ball.  It actually makes a difference in being able to see the spin on the ball very early.  Yes, it also helps to be able to focus better on a server's motion to possibly spot the deception in their motion and have a clue as to the spin that is on the ball.

You can actually spot a no-spin serve quite well just by watching the ball closely.  A ball that is spinning is harder to judge just by looking closely.  So, relying on some understanding of how the ball bounces is very helpful with spinny serves.  For instance, a backspin ball will tend to "float" between each bounce.  A topspin ball will tend to "run" when it bounces.  A sidespin ball will tend to curve as it bounces.

Easier said than done, I know.  Practice, practice, practice.  Remember there isn't just one way to return a serve.  But, if you know what spin is on the ball very early, then you've got the advantage on the server.

I find this quite hard to do, and it means you can't take the ball early. The bounce is also highly table dependent in our area.... some clubs use old tables that are glossy and smooth, some use matt and grippy tables... the difference is huge!


Never said it was easy.  It is a high level skill, and sometimes you can't take the ball early unless you just want to guess. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2014 at 12:55am
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

The black rubber is not a short pimple. It´s a long pimple OX. And I don´t use the LP in forehand, I use it as a rpb player does, just pushing or cutting the opponent serve.
The forehand rubber is this one (yes, I play with 2 pimples rubber... Pinch)




Regarding the 3rd ball I have absolutely no problem with it. Generally my opponent is not able to attack my reception, pushing it back to me (tsutsuki). So I can choose to shoto in angle or forehand smash the ball. 


what pips are that? and blade
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