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Plastic Balls -- Happy Innovation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Plastic Balls -- Happy Innovation.
    Posted: 08/01/2014 at 4:19pm
MESSAGE of 'THANK YOU'...

According to many people responses, the Plastic Balls do favour elder folk over the youngsters, for being easier to handle, some slower and less spinny.

Thank you ever so much, Mr. Sharara.
We have now got table tennis game more controllable with the plastic.

QUOD ERAT FACIENDUM.

Yours sincerely

Igor NOVICK
a rational blocker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 100niTenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2014 at 4:28pm
Hahahahaha ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2014 at 4:29pm
I don't think Sharara reads the forums... He's an "elder folk".
Maybe leave a voicemail or email his assistant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2014 at 4:59pm
Igorponger seeks artist to draw his cartoon strip...
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2014 at 1:39am
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

I don't think Sharara reads the forums... He's an "elder folk".
Maybe leave a voicemail or email his assistant.

he must have a typewriter to make new rules, i love how people makes slurs about him
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 1:06pm
http://ittf.com/press_releases/PR/PR1.asp?id=10

IMPORTANT NOTIFICATION

-- No "dead line" for the balls of celluloid is still determined.
The Cell to be a free choice for general use worldwide unless the Rule 2.3 THE BALL is revised someday.
There is no promulgated attempt to change the rule as yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 1:26pm
From that press release, I noticed the following.  "The ITTF has kept the levels of specification for the approval of plastic balls as close as possible to the specifications of celluloid balls. Some wider tolerances have been allowed for an 18-months period to ensure best quality. This will ensure that the plastic balls used in competitions will feel similar to celluloid balls, reducing disruptions to the players."

This is obviously not true.  It that was true, they would not have pressured manufacturers to make them larger.  (A lot of the other statements in that press release have been debated to death and seem also to be lies but we already have lots of threads on those). 

The current Chinese seamed poly balls such as DHS clearly play differently, as pretty much everyone notes.  This  includes Igor, who occasionally claims that plastic balls are better for manly muscle men with superior athletic skills, and then says they are better for old people who are afraid of spin and speed, and is sometimes just incoherent.

As for the three classes of people mentioned in the press release (people who like the idea, people who hate the idea, and people who go with the flow), I can see that there must be a group of people who like more expensive balls of poor quality.   Mostly people who stand to make money on the deal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

This  includes Igor, who occasionally claims that plastic balls are better for manly muscle men with superior athletic skills, and then says they are better for old people who are afraid of spin and speed, and is sometimes just incoherent.

Did you say 'sometimes'? I admire your listening skills...
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the_theologian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 1:54pm
Igor is a Googlebot guys.... probably an intern assignment
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 2:44pm
I don't agree with most of his stuff but still like him. I have some respect for all unorthodox thinkers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the_theologian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

I don't agree with most of his stuff but still like him. I have some respect for all unorthodox thinkers.


Cheers, I feel the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by the_theologian the_theologian wrote:

Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

I don't agree with most of his stuff but still like him. I have some respect for all unorthodox thinkers.


Cheers, I feel the same.
===========================

He is a die-hard ponger, quite a character.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

MESSAGE of 'THANK YOU'...

According to many people responses, the Plastic Balls do favour elder folk over the youngsters, for being easier to handle, some slower and less spinny.

Thank you ever so much, Mr. Sharara.
We have now got table tennis game more controllable with the plastic.

QUOD ERAT FACIENDUM.

Yours sincerely

Igor NOVICK
a rational blocker

@ Igor:

So according to Newton's 2nd law of motion lift should be the same for both the 40C and 40+ ball if they are the same weight,  given that why do we see less lift with the new balls  even though applied force is equal? Is it due to the the hardness  of the  plastic ball having less elasticity?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 5:54pm
Is there a video of Igorponger playing Ping Pong?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 6:04pm
Isn't it the other way?  That due to the gravitational field strength the acceleration on 40mm and 40+ are the same, but because of the extra weight the downward force on the latter is higher than that on the former.  On the other hand, the lift or more precisely drag on the 40+ should be higher due to the greater surface area.

Edited by zeio - 08/06/2014 at 6:20pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berkeleydoctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 6:06pm
i heard the durability is horrible
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Isn't it the other way?  That due to the gravitational field strength the acceleration on 40mm and 40+ are the same, but because of the extra weight the downward force on the latter is higher than that on the former.  On the other hand, the lift or more precisely drag on the 40+ should be higher due to the greater surface area.

 the seamless is the same weight as the 40C if one ball is heavier then the other Newton's 2nd law does not apply.  The 38MM and 40MM C ball per research had the same lift and they weighed the same.  The 40C ball turned out to have a greater mangus effect because it was slower then the 38MM ball and took longer to travel over the table allowing the mangus effect to take hold while the 38MM ball was faster and did not hit the table.
So basically the 40C and 40+ if they weigh the same should have the same lift and the 40+ would act very similar to the old 40C and have good topsin/sidespin/backspin but it would occur earlier due to air drag. Since it is losing velocity faster. 

This may be the reason the  Nittaku Prem balls that are made with a new type of plastic material are getting a better response from players, they weigh the same , have similar lift and my guess have more  elasticity  then conventional plastic balls.   

This is a note from the researcher I emailed about the lift study and his response:  My question to David was whether this effect should be the same between the new 40+ and older 40C ball:  His reply below:

August 4th 2014 at 10:21

This was surprising to me as well. As I played with the 38mm ball I found it more difficult to hit the other side of the table not yet realizing that the ball actually curves less. It is true that the 38mm ball has less wind resistance and can travel faster than the 40mm ball but for the same speed and spin, the 40mm ball will curve more. The magnus coefficient is greater. The explanation for this is that the 40mm ball has more surface area yet weighs the same as the 38mm ball.

I am unfamiliar with the 40+ ball. But I assume that if the weight of the ball remains the same, the trend will continue. The magnus coefficient will be greater and they will curve more for the same amount of speed and spin.

However, these results don’t show whether a larger ball will curve more during a match. It doesn’t show if the ball will be able to reach the speed or spin necessary to curve more than the smaller ones. In gameplay, it may be true that the 38mm ball curves (accelerates) more than the bigger balls in general because it travels at higher speed with more spin. I don’t know, though.

One thing to note, though, is that if the ball travels at a slower speed, there is more time for the ball to curve/accelerate before it hits the other side of the table. The 40mm ball may be curving/accelerating less than the 38mm ball during gameplay but the 40 mm ball will appear to curve more because there is more time for it to curve. In gameplay, I feel that this is what is important.

To summarize, yes the bigger the ball is, the slower it will be but the magnus effect is greater for the same amount of speed and spin. The 40mm ball can accelerate at the same rate as a 38mm ball that is faster and more spinny. On top of that, it will have more time to accelerate since it is traveling slower.

I hope this makes sense but please ask for any clarifications.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 9:30pm
Newton's 2nd law applies even if the two balls are of the same weight.  The downward force on them would be the same this time around, though the magnus force and drag force ought to be different as the two values do not depend on weight but rather surface area.  The 40mm ball exhibits a greater magnus effect primarily because it has a greater surface area in contact with the air for the magnus force to work on.  While the larger ball remains longer in flight due to greater drag, the magnus force also gets reduced faster in the process as more spin increases the drag, but that may be offset by the greater moment of inertia.

I am not sure if the Nittaku Premium 40+ is the same weight, but from Baal's feedback it is certain to have a similar COR as current celluloid balls.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2014 at 1:34am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Newton's 2nd law applies even if the two balls are of the same weight.  The downward force on them would be the same this time around, though the magnus force and drag force ought to be different as the two values do not depend on weight but rather surface area.  The 40mm ball exhibits a greater magnus effect primarily because it has a greater surface area in contact with the air for the magnus force to work on.  While the larger ball remains longer in flight due to greater drag, the magnus force also gets reduced faster in the process as more spin increases the drag, but that may be offset by the greater moment of inertia.

I am not sure if the Nittaku Premium 40+ is the same weight, but from Baal's feedback it is certain to have a similar COR as current celluloid balls.

I agree, that is what I said basically along with the guy from MIT also somebody on a thread showed  the Nittaku Premium on a scale next to a 40C they were the same weight.

   the bottom line is that the various 40+balls to date seem hard they probably made from a  low elastic plastic which may mean that no amount of extra force, new rubber or new blade design will make much difference in there performance.  What you see is what you get!

Lets hope Nittaku Premium 40+ becomes the standard including its new material.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2014 at 12:03am
I am not so sure about the weight being the same.




Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2014 at 1:34am

The 39MM and 40MM were both the same material weighed the same and had the same lift and the 40C had the better magnus effect at least in studio but I realized today that none of these 40+balls are heavy and there weight relative to each other is very small and any number of TT blades stroked mildly could generate enough force to create a strong magnus effect in any of these balls.  If these 40+ balls were C rather then plastic we would not be having this discussion even if they had minor weight differences.   The review by TT11 with the DHS ball today showed a  muted mangus effect  even though the player doing the video had a modern fast paddle and used a good strong loop stroke, so I am not looking at lift as an issue as to why the new 40+balls have a muted magnus effect its just not that hard to brush stroke or top spin drive any of these 40+ balls as the reality is they are very  light balls and the weight difference is minor relative to the power of modern day TT players.  We also know from the research done at MIT that the slower ball 40C due to its larger surface was slower but  generated a lively mangus effect because it had time for the effect to take hold as it  traveled across the table.  So the extra surface area doesn't look to be a good reason  that the new 40+have so little magnus effect. 
ITTF  created an exception for the seamed balls weight relative to the rule  based on the fact that they found the weight difference  minor I accept that and realize it has little significance relative to lift. 

That's why my focus is on the  hard plastic used to make these balls.

What say you?



 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2014 at 12:45pm
The lift and drag of the 40+ ball, even if it is of the same material as 40mm ball, would likely be significant enough to call for attention, because both values grow quadratically as the radius increases.  The 38mm(38.1mm) to 40mm(39.6mm) was roughly a .75mm increase, compared to the 40+(40.3mm), we are seeing another .35mm jump.  That would be enough to cause a difference.

A possible reason the folks in the TT11 review find the magnus effect muted is because  the lift can never grow as strong as the drag.  And the more they grow, the greater they deviate.  So any increase in lift is nullified by the increase in drag and weight.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2014 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

The lift and drag of the 40+ ball, even if it is of the same material as 40mm ball, would likely be significant enough to call for attention, because both values grow quadratically as the radius increases.  The 38mm(38.1mm) to 40mm(39.6mm) was roughly a .75mm increase, compared to the 40+(40.3mm), we are seeing another .35mm jump.  That would be enough to cause a difference.

A possible reason the folks in the TT11 review find the magnus effect muted is because  the lift can never grow as strong as the drag.  And the more they grow, the greater they deviate.  So any increase in lift is nullified by the increase in drag and weight.

So what does that statement mean to players using the new balls: Can they ever achieve a magnus  effect the same or greater then the current 40C and if so how?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2014 at 10:30pm
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

I don't agree with most of his stuff but still like him. I have some respect for all unorthodox thinkers.

Yeah, me too.... But how do we determine who is the orthodox thinker?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2014 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

The lift and drag of the 40+ ball, even if it is of the same material as 40mm ball, would likely be significant enough to call for attention, because both values grow quadratically as the radius increases.  The 38mm(38.1mm) to 40mm(39.6mm) was roughly a .75mm increase, compared to the 40+(40.3mm), we are seeing another .35mm jump.  That would be enough to cause a difference.

A possible reason the folks in the TT11 review find the magnus effect muted is because  the lift can never grow as strong as the drag.  And the more they grow, the greater they deviate.  So any increase in lift is nullified by the increase in drag and weight.

So what does that statement mean to players using the new balls: Can they ever achieve a magnus  effect the same or greater then the current 40C and if so how?

Probably not.  The ball may be light, but there's more than meets the eye.  The problem does not lie with the weight, or the mass to be precise.  It has to do with the moment of inertia and how to overcome that.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2014 at 4:45am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

The lift and drag of the 40+ ball, even if it is of the same material as 40mm ball, would likely be significant enough to call for attention, because both values grow quadratically as the radius increases.  The 38mm(38.1mm) to 40mm(39.6mm) was roughly a .75mm increase, compared to the 40+(40.3mm), we are seeing another .35mm jump.  That would be enough to cause a difference.

A possible reason the folks in the TT11 review find the magnus effect muted is because  the lift can never grow as strong as the drag.  And the more they grow, the greater they deviate.  So any increase in lift is nullified by the increase in drag and weight.

So what does that statement mean to players using the new balls: Can they ever achieve a magnus  effect the same or greater then the current 40C and if so how?

Probably not.  The ball may be light, but there's more than meets the eye.  The problem does not lie with the weight, or the mass to be precise.  It has to do with the moment of inertia and how to overcome that.

the problem is that ITTF wants a slow ball and companies try to make a heavier ball that will last if not people wont buy it but a heavier ball would be faster, thats why lighter balls seem to wobble at flight
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2014 at 7:07am
I think the weird ball flight is because too many are not round, at least in the boxes I have bought. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2014 at 7:19am
With a scale with a precision of at least + or - 1 gram you really can't say anything about the weight. Need an accurate and reliable scale that weighs to at least 0.1 and probably 0.01 gram.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2014 at 7:22am
When they break you saw them in half and check out the inside. If that is not smooth it would explain weird flight
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2014 at 7:33am
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

With a scale with a precision of at least + or - 1 gram you really can't say anything about the weight. Need an accurate and reliable scale that weighs to at least 0.1 and probably 0.01 gram.
Which I have.  I used an analytical balance in my laboratory that weighs accurately to milligrams.  The Joola 40+ balls interestingly enough were not significantly heavier than some DHS celluloid balls I had.  The difference was about 2% (although small sample of five 40+ balls). Odd thing was that the same balls that I weighed felt heavier when I played with them, so that really surprised me.  The Joola 40+ balls are harder (you can tell that by just pressing on them), and you have to swing harder to get them to have the same pace, so maybe that is why they felt heavier.  Or maybe placebo effect of some kind.  Maybe I felt what I expected to feel.  But even after I knew they were not heavier, they still felt heavier.  Weird.  Also, I think the hardness may account for what I perceive as lower bounce.
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