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Stiga 40+ polyball |
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yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
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Posted: 09/17/2014 at 10:05am |
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Balls used for comparison: Xu Shao Fa polyball, joola 3 Star ball celluloid Blade and rubbers used: Stiga Ebenholz 5, Globe 999 national, Stiga Airoc S and M rubbers, Radical Short Pips I had the opportunity to test the Stiga polyballs along with the Airoc S and M versions. The ba new ball from Stiga is a high quality pvc ball with seam. Like the other polyball balls, the surface of the Stiga Optimum 40+ ball is smoother compared to the Joola 3 star ball. On a bounce test, the Stiga poly ball has a slightly lower bounce compared to the celluloid ball by 2-3cm approx. Even against the Xu Shao Fa polyball, the Stiga 40+ has a lower bounce by about a cm or 2. The Stiga 40+ ball had a better sound comapared to the XSF ball. It didn't hear too much like a cracked ball being whipped by the racket. Both the XSF and Stiga 40+ balls have this high pitched sound when bouncing echoing across the table. The Stiga 40+ ball like other pvc balls has a reduced amount of spin when looping. I do not blame Stiga for this because this is not their fault rather the ITTF's for making us use this kind of material. There was a significant decrease in spin when I used the 40+ with the mentioned Chinese rubber which was so obvious that my student who blocks me told me that my loops are easier to block against and even my serves are easier to return. This is not the case with the celluloid ball. The good side of the Stiga 40+ ball is that it is easier to hit with flat drives and spin drives. Both the Airocs and Radical short pip rubbers performed well against the 40+ ball. This is just my silly opinion and theory but other people would agree with what I am going to say. If this kind of performance will continue then the new trend and style of play would be more on hitting and riving the ball relying more on speed rather than spin. I am not the first one to think about this but this is what I am seeing. Also, I may sound silly for thinking of this but the Airoc rubbers (both M and S) played really good with the 40+ ball that maybe and MAYBE the design was really for an emphasis on speed and power rather than spin. If you would have a less spinny ball and it would make you do great efforts just to spin the polyball then maybe it's better to focus on other areas like speed and power rather than spin. Overall the Stiga Optimum 40+ ball is very good especially when I used the 2 new Airocs which were designed for this type of ball. It is also durable because I have been playing with it for 1 straight hour and I haven't cracked it with my student. I have cracked 2 other polyball brands in a span of 30 min together with my student in the past. I think the factor here is the hardnes of the ball. Compared to the XSF ball, the Stiga Optimum 40+ felt a little softer when I was pressing against it. I think this made the ball deform easily when hit by the racket and prevent lesser breakage on the ball compared to other poly balls. |
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Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
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Machine_Head
Super Member Joined: 07/24/2014 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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Yayks! Some polyballs crack after 30 minutes of play? And they are generally more expensive than celluloid balls right?
Btw, I think you did not mention the blade you used. |
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yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
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opps, i stand corrected. i used ebenholz 5.. by the way the Stiga polyball has a lower arc compared to celluloid ball
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Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Yogi, this is kind of an important issue, and I am hoping you can do me a favor. Check the boxes of the balls you have tested and see if there is a four letter code on the box that will have the first letter X, a second letter, and then the letters A and D. It will probably be pressed into the box and it may be hard to find. Can you find that for the various balls tested? That is the date they were manufactured. Can you tell me what the second letter was for the balls you tested?
By the way, the low bounce of seamed polyballs is a problem when you actually start playing matches. So far, only XSF and Nittaku Premium (Japan) bounce as high as celluloid. I am trying to get a feeling for whether the seamed balls are getting better in this regard as time goes on. |
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yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
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aight i will check it later
i think manufacturers have their hands tied now because of the limits of technology for the new ball. unless companies can produce a better quality ball, performance on the table for average players who rely on spin will go downhill |
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Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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With the low bounce my contention is that quality of play for pretty much everybody goes down some. Spin is reduced with ALL of the larger balls, but that is not IMHO (as a spin based player) so troubling as low bounce. At least two manufacturers have solved that problem.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Agreed. Even as a spin based player, I was spinning mostly to get a higher ball to put away so it's frustrating to do so and get a ball that doesn't appear where I expect it to. It will be interesting how the pros respond to using Nittakus at the European Championships. I wonder which Nittakus will be used. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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HARD BALLS MEET ITTF EXPECTATIONS VERY WELL..
Making the ball materil some softer should result in the increased spin rate. Australian tennis pundits did prove this in theory. In all evidence, there is BUT a misty hope that tt manufacturers enter into some deep researching (=money/time heavy expedinture) for a softer plastic formulation, in the view that ITTF's unspoken desire is eventually decreasing the ball speed and spin. |
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yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
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Baal, the letters are XFAD
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Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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X= 0, F = 6, A = 1, D =4 -> 0614.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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suds79
Silver Member Joined: 08/20/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 878 |
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Yep. The size is ever so slightly bigger but these new balls are much harder. I've got to give it up to Baal. He called this before I did. I didn't notice much of a difference at first playing with the poly ball. But now that we've finally broken some, celluloid are more available and cheaper. So for the time being our club is back to using those. I don't know if it's a mental thing with me but there seems to be a substantial spin difference now. You can see the difference in the arc of the ball. When I train with the poly ball, I can't help but have several balls that fly just long off the end of the table that everything in me tells me that I hit that ball correct. I'm simply not getting as much spin. It's gotten so bad that if I'm playing with the poly ball, I'll just pull out my short pips blade where I play considerably better with that setup. If poly balls stay the same hardness as they do, I'm certainly going to have to switch inverted rubbers. Thinking thicker sponge & super soft. Anything to essentially grab the ball more since less of the ball is touching my rubber now given these new balls don't flex much at all.
Edited by suds79 - 09/18/2014 at 9:14am |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Making them larger already accomplishes a decrease in speed and spin. This is attested by EVERY decent player who has any of the new balls, and it is true for EVERY brand tested. The trick is to add that extra 0.4 mm, use a new material and simultaneously make a ball that is round, doesn't break and has a normal and reliable bounce. Doing all that has proven challenging. XSF has already achieved that at a reasonable price but they are a small company so doubtful their clearly superior product will be widely adopted --- unless in desperation to meet the more strict ITTF standards that are coming soon, some other companies partner with them. As for seamed balls, only the Nittaku Premium has achieved this. Torsten Kuneth of ITTF is quite aware of the problems with most of the seamed balls. If you think about what happens when you try to kick a football that is only half inflated you can see the problem you will have if you make the balls too soft. There is a very narrow range of hardness that works. On another front, it seems like nearly all the seamed polyballs I have seen were manufactured in June. So we will see if there is any improvement in the terrible seamed polyballs over time. By the way, ITTF knows these balls are bad and is keeping their fingers crossed for improvement. One last thing. When I tried Stiga 40+, it felt just like DHS to me (because of low bounce) but admittedly it was one ball for just a few minutes. The bounce height and regularity is the biggest issue. |
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macpoddy
Super Member Joined: 01/01/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 134 |
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+1.
I think you are right that poly ball would favors styles which hit or drive more than those that spin. I played with nittaku poly ball yesterday. I play with long pips on backhand and for forehand I can play either inverted or short pips , both about a 2200 playing level. When I tried my paddle with short pips I was able to hit thru spin with no trouble, against players that I would have some difficulty with. I think I would be permanently switching to my short pips forehand. I feel there is at least a 20 percent drop in spin with the poly ball. they are killing the game for loopers. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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For sure, weak loops will be eaten alive when playing with the new ball. However, don't underestimate the effect of the slight slowing of the game. Loopers will have a little more time to get into ideal position so their body rotates fully. I wouldn't say they are killing the game for loopers but you they will have to get more fit, that's for sure. I also think that SP will return as a more viable style at higher levels. BUT, at the end of the day, there will still be a lot of spin-based attackers.
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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The numerous reports about significantly weaker loops we read are there despite loopers having "more time to get into ideal position so their body rotates fully". In other words, if you wish loopers do have a little more time to get into ideal position so their body rotates fully, but the result is nevertheless significantly weaker loops, probably because of certain properties of the plastic balls the users played with. At the same time, as you put it, weak loops will be eaten alive when playing with the new ball, so it means bad future for spin-based game. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Which I presume is why all the tournaments since the change have been won by loopers?
In fact, the change has favored some extremely one-dimensional power loopers - look at players like Quadri Aruna or Simon Arvidsson. Edited by NextLevel - 09/18/2014 at 12:04pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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MM, since you have not yet by your own admission actually played with these balls, why chime in?
From a couple of months with these balls now, I can say that a well hit loop is still an aggressive shot and very effective with polyballs, especially so when they are deep. Also, myself and my clubmates can still often "loop people off the table", that is to hit a loop so spinny that the opponents blocks it off the end. But high slower loops that one could sometimes get away with before will be more likely punished. Those weak loops often happened because the looper was a little slow getting to the ball. They now have more time, but if they don't take advantage of it and use lazy technique, they are in trouble. Also find myself flat hitting a bit more than I used to because sometimes that shot just feels right with polyballs. I have actually had a lot of fun playing with XSF balls, we can get into some pretty long and amazing topspin rallies compared to how we play with celluloid. But those balls have a pretty good and clean bounce. The seamed polyballs are much less fun. Too often the ball just isn't where it should be because of a strange bounce and it seems like they drop faster or something. I am a looper. These balls have clearly not killed the sport for me. |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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Your information is a little bit too old. |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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Flat hitters have been rare since decades on the high level, so people do what they have learned to do: looping. But the trend will be counter-hitting against loops, and I can already see the signs of that. |
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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FZD is a very very powerful flat/ smash hitter of the ball and very successful with it too... |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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By FZD you mean "Freaky Zomby Driver" or someone else? |
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JKC
Gold Member Joined: 11/12/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1625 |
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Am I the only person who has tried the newer balls and come to the conclusion that spin will become a more important part of the game and not less so. I spin the ball a lot and just can't see the new ball will hindering me a great deal. The sooner it is more widely used the better.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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No, you are not, but it will require more athleticism to spin the ball. Have you played a lot of matches against hitters? |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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DreiZ
Platinum Member Joined: 06/01/2009 Location: New York, US Status: Offline Points: 2576 |
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have you played against short pip FH cpen yet? or shakehand with SP on BH? come to think of it... wouldn't SP on FH cpen players and SP on BH shakehand players benefit from this type of ball? Edited by DreiZ - 09/19/2014 at 7:13pm |
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Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
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bbkon
Premier Member Joined: 04/19/2005 Location: Afghanistan Status: Offline Points: 7260 |
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in the last tournaments players like he zhiwen and wang zeng yi have played better
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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From my experience with polyballs (more than two months now), and watching my clubmates adapt to it, it seems like SP hitters and people who generally play closer to the table are adapting more quickly and easily. It is a bigger transition for spin oriented players who play a little farther back, either loopers or choppers. That's because their timing is messed up more, and they are having to adjust their vertical movements (forward and backward) more since these balls have a different trajectory, and for seamed versions, different bounce. Sometimes they sink faster, sometimes they float and at first it's hard to figure out the logic to it.
But in time -- over several weeks -- spin players do adapt and then the change is not as much as you might expect at first. While it is harder to get a lot of spin on the ball, like I have said on other threads, you have more time to do it and hit a good loop with full body rotation. One thing for sure, high, slow, spinny loops get whacked. You can't get away with lazy loops. None of this requires an equipment change IMHO. |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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Does anyone know if the Stiga 40+ is made by DHS or Double Fish?
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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More likely DHS.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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