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2014 [17th] Asian Games [VIDEOS HD]

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 12:26pm
The best and the worst performance:  ML and XX vs Joo.

Best performance by ML & XX:
ML:  11 - 9 and 11 - 9  (Joo got 9 points each for 2 games. That's darn close.)
XX:  11 - 2 and 11 - 2  (Joo got only 2 points each for 2 games. No competition at all.)

Worst performance by ML & XX:
ML:  He lost a game to JOO.
XX:  11 - 7  (XX worst performance, but still beat Joo comfortably).
===========================

Thanks to NextLevel and RPB23 detailed analyses why the matches ended that way.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 1:08pm
On the cctv5 coverage, the commenters said that XX has the best loop in the world against choppers. I remember earlier this year, one or two people on this forum claimed that XX's loop was weaker than his teammates (you know who you are). Same goes for comments about Liu Shiwen's short strokes. Reveals the fact the poster is low on understanding of the strokes and basically watches without seeing...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

assiduous:    

When you saw my post, you pretty much knew my assessment:  You have ZERO % chance to beat those two "no-strokes women players".

Now with the 2 forummers here expressed the same, we have 3 guys here came to the same conclusion.

Skip
your personal attack is not an argument for or against my opinion, skippers. It is also kind of a cheap, straw-man strategy. You attack something that i don't claim. I know the women are about 1000 points higher rated than me so I would be lucky to get a couple of points. This has no bearing on the fact that their strokes make me want to staple my eyes shut and never watch female ping pong again.

This is not a function of them being women either. I have recently watched a couple of women, one from vietnam and one from europe, who have very nice, full strokes. Names escaping me now but some of you may remember, links were posted here. What is even more weird, is the CNT women are coached by MEN, with excellent stroke mechanics. How do they end up with these ugly twitch-strokes is really a surprising to me. 
puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 109eh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 3:49pm
See TT videos on http://www.youtube.com/user/109eh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 4:03pm
LET'S LIVE AND SEE...



Just communicated with a celebrity boy, Kirill Tarasenko 16yo, participant for Kazakhstam Noc at the Asian Game table tennis events.

He confirmed that the ball in use was CHAMPION celluloid Korea-made. The ball to be scarcely found someplace on Europa-America market, but on Asian region markets only.

I admire very much to see if XU Xin is good enough to gain a golden glory with hard plastic DHS as much as he did with celluloid mild-soft meterial.
   World Men's Cup oncoming next week will be an answer.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fehrplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 4:33pm
Many great matches! Thanks guys!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

assiduous:    

When you saw my post, you pretty much knew my assessment:  You have ZERO % chance to beat those two "no-strokes women players".

Now with the 2 forummers here expressed the same, we have 3 guys here came to the same conclusion.

Skip
What is even more weird, is the CNT women are coached by MEN, with excellent stroke mechanics. How do they end up with these ugly twitch-strokes is really a surprising to me. 

Sigh... What looks like an ugly twitch-stroke to you is  a very efficient and admirable stroke. 

They use their body momentum, excellent minimal backswing, and contact and control the ball very well.
There is no big followthrough.
As a result they can recover quickly and stay close to the table to press and deny the opponent time. 

And you know what? Their touch means they probably get more spin and speed than your average 2600-2700 player. And when they ramp up the rally speed, that 2600-2700 player won't be able to keep up never mind get more than one consecutive power loop off in time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 7:33pm
assiduous:

I have re-read my post, I did not find anything that I attacked you.  As one member here commented that you watched but you didn't see.  Your skill level is just too low to appreciate how skillful those two women players are, how fast they are and how quick they recover after the stroke and their foot-work.

I'll tell you, they are fast.


Edited by skip3119 - 10/05/2014 at 7:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 8:04pm
And, I just want to add that you could consider Zhang Jike to have "an ugly-twitch" backhand by your standards. After all, his backhand stroke is often very short, efficient and precise close to the table. And yet his backhand is widely considered to be one of the very best ever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote popperlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

And, I just want to add that you could consider Zhang Jike to have "an ugly-twitch" backhand by your standards. After all, his backhand stroke is often very short, efficient and precise close to the table. And yet his backhand is widely considered to be one of the very best ever.
+1
Zhang Jike has ugly technique(fh and bh) compared to Ma Long, Fan Zhendong, and even Liu Shiwen. But he's a physical beast, so he can get away with his sub par technique.  Liu Shiwen's technique is on a higher level, but she's a midget and female. Everyone knows women's basketball is not as exciting and explosive as the men's, stop picking on them assiduous.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 9:43pm
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

assiduous:    

When you saw my post, you pretty much knew my assessment:  You have ZERO % chance to beat those two "no-strokes women players".

Now with the 2 forummers here expressed the same, we have 3 guys here came to the same conclusion.

Skip
your personal attack is not an argument for or against my opinion, skippers. It is also kind of a cheap, straw-man strategy. You attack something that i don't claim. I know the women are about 1000 points higher rated than me so I would be lucky to get a couple of points. This has no bearing on the fact that their strokes make me want to staple my eyes shut and never watch female ping pong again.

This is not a function of them being women either. I have recently watched a couple of women, one from vietnam and one from europe, who have very nice, full strokes. Names escaping me now but some of you may remember, links were posted here. What is even more weird, is the CNT women are coached by MEN, with excellent stroke mechanics. How do they end up with these ugly twitch-strokes is really a surprising to me. 
Sure, I mean, everyone here really knows they play very effectively. The European with "nice" strokes is probably the Romanian  Elizabeta  Samara. However, I hope to see her develop her game to a point when she can actually successfully compete with the ladies in question (although... she recently beat Fukuhara !). BTW, I lost today in a tournament match to a lady with really "ugly" strokes and ugly short pip 802-40 on her forehand... she was more consistent than I.

(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TurboZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 9:56pm
I remember reading that Guo Yue was trained to play with man's stroke but end up retired early because of injuries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 10:03pm
Does anyone have a video of Zhang Jike BH looping away from the table?  I have struggled in vain to find/remember one.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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FH/BH: H3P 41D.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote simon_xuan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 10:32pm
11th minute
http://youtu.be/ByUX0mOVjwg
RPB Rocks!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by simon_xuan simon_xuan wrote:

11th minute
http://youtu.be/ByUX0mOVjwg


Ah, the match of everything... but if that is away from the table, then I am a 2 winged mid-distance looper...


On another hand, does anyone know why the used the celluloid ball (if igorponger is correct) for the Asian games?  Would have been nice to see the plastic ball in use before the World Cup.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TurboZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 11:23pm
Don't know the reason but commentator did say that this is the last game with celluloid balls so the winner has something worth remembering.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2014 at 11:58pm
About the "Lefty" argument:

Chen Chien-An is a lefty, he is a notoriously poor player against pips chopper.
(Actually, all top players of TPE have problems with pips chopper.)

Chen Chien-An (a lefty) played Muramatsu Yuto 3 times.  He won the earliest match (took 7 games) but lost 2 most recent matches - both at 1 - 4.

Not sure the "Lefty" is the answer that XX did tremendously better than ML (against Joo).
But I respect you guys' opinion.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote popperlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2014 at 12:37am
Originally posted by janus700 janus700 wrote:

[October 4] # MS-Final: XU Xin Vs FAN Zhendong [HD] [Full match/Chinese]


I didn't like xu xin's cheating and stalling. I respect cheaters and stallers, nothing wrong with doing whatever it takes. However, it's not my cup of tea. I prefer to watch the raw passion and relentless attacking of Fan Zhen Dong. I am hereby a member of the FAN ZHEN DONG IS THE BOSS fan club!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2014 at 3:16am
Originally posted by TurboZ TurboZ wrote:

Don't know the reason but commentator did say that this is the last game with celluloid balls so the winner has something worth remembering.

so they played with the standard ball non 40+?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2014 at 3:35am
xu xin the cheater. shame on you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TurboZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2014 at 5:47am
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by TurboZ TurboZ wrote:

Don't know the reason but commentator did say that this is the last game with celluloid balls so the winner has something worth remembering.

so they played with the standard ball non 40+?
 
True. Last game of the old ball so XX will be remembered as the last winner of the celluloid era.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2014 at 9:54am
Comparing the performance between XX and ML against Joo, 

XX may be called the "Pips Choppers' Killer".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2014 at 10:34am
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

Originally posted by janus700 janus700 wrote:

[October 4] # MS-Final: XU Xin Vs FAN Zhendong [HD] [Full match/Chinese]


I didn't like xu xin's cheating and stalling. I respect cheaters and stallers, nothing wrong with doing whatever it takes. However, it's not my cup of tea. I prefer to watch the raw passion and relentless attacking of Fan Zhen Dong. I am hereby a member of the FAN ZHEN DONG IS THE BOSS fan club!

I wouldn't say that XX was cheating. It is hard to judge a ball is on the edge or on the side anyway.  Stalling is annoying, but appears to be a  legal tactic in the tournament. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2014 at 12:42pm
Joo Saehyuk has done very well in the Asian games, beat quite a few world top players.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RPB23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2014 at 1:07pm
Take 'Pips' out of the sentence. 

He is simply a choppers' killer.

Or, more generally speaking, he kills any one who doesn't play fast paced yet still consistent and powerful enough like top CNT members, which explains why he has been so consistently dominant against non-Chinese players cause they simply don't possess the combos of speed, consistency and power.

Speed, consistency and power, in essence, are the modern-day pro table tennis players' recipe to reach the top.
  
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Comparing the performance between XX and ML against Joo, 

XX may be called the "Pips Choppers' Killer".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2014 at 1:17pm
RPB23 said: "Take 'Pips' out of the sentence. 
He is simply a choppers' killer."
=================================

Most, if not all, modern day choppers using pips (long of short pips) on one side, and inverted on the other side for FH attacks (or chops).

There may be some, but I don't know them, who use inverted on both side to chop and attack.

XX is a "Pips Choppers' Killer" seems to be an appropriate description. 

(I will not argue about this any more, if you want to have the "final say" that's OK with me.  However, I am convinced XX is a "Pips Choppers' Killer".)


Edited by skip3119 - 10/06/2014 at 1:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RPB23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2014 at 1:20pm
Agree. 

Any sports with referees, you can not label players cheater as ultimately it is referee's job to make a call. A player has the right to raise a question or challenge, but it is the referee who makes the final decision.

Plus, the effect of that  incident in the third game was moot as Fan won the game.

This is analogous to legal system. Judges/jurors make the decision, not the prosecutors or defenders. Even lawyers who's job are to find loopholes in the law are not labeled cheaters.  
 
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

Originally posted by janus700 janus700 wrote:

[October 4] # MS-Final: XU Xin Vs FAN Zhendong [HD] [Full match/Chinese]


I didn't like xu xin's cheating and stalling. I respect cheaters and stallers, nothing wrong with doing whatever it takes. However, it's not my cup of tea. I prefer to watch the raw passion and relentless attacking of Fan Zhen Dong. I am hereby a member of the FAN ZHEN DONG IS THE BOSS fan club!

I wouldn't say that XX was cheating. It is hard to judge a ball is on the edge or on the side anyway.  Stalling is annoying, but appears to be a  legal tactic in the tournament. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RPB23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2014 at 1:25pm
Well, Joo also chops with his inverted side from forehand. So, strictly he is not 100% pips chopper.

As a matter of fact, regardless one's equipment, if he plays as  a chopper, XX just eats him for breakfast.

Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

RPB23 said: "Take 'Pips' out of the sentence. 
He is simply a choppers' killer."
=================================

Most, if not all, modern day choppers using pips (long of short pips) on one side, and inverted on the other side for FH attacks (or chops).

There may be some, but I don't know them, who use inverted on both side to chop and attack.

XX is a "Pips Choppers' Killer" seems to be an appropriate description. 

(I will not argue about this any more, if you want to have the "final say" that's OK with me.  However, I am convinced XX is a "Pips Choppers' Killer".)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rick_ys_ho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2014 at 1:28pm
Professionals often say that penholders have strong FH, and very often stronger than SH FH. A penholder should rely mostly on his FH. XX is a perfect example.

XX can deal with Joo's return more comfortably due to the defender's slow pace, which allows him to get into position to execute his powerful FH. However, XX will have much more trouble dealing with some players like, Kenta Matsudaira and Chen Chien-an, who do fast pace blocking and wide range replacement, XX's recovery becomes a problem. In this case, Ma Long has much less issues playing with this type of players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RPB23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2014 at 1:40pm
To beat a chopper, most important attribute is the power that can penetrate chopper's defense.

A penetrating power can really bring fear into chopper's mind as he is aware any moment, a big shot can finish the play.

Second attribute is consistency. Choppers beating attackers most by consistency by signaling to them you are not gonna break my defense, thus, making attackers lose confidence and committing more errors. But, if an attacker is just as consistent as the chopper, that neutralizes a chopper's main inherent advantage.

Third attribute is the control and placement (including angles), so it will make a chopper's life more difficult.

XX beat Joo mostly by his power. Since he can really break down Joo's defense, he typically beat him with ease.

ML beat Joo mostly by his consistency and placement, hence a lot harder way.

Chen Chien-An (a lefty), lacks both power and consistency to beat Joo.

Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

About the "Lefty" argument:

Chen Chien-An is a lefty, he is a notoriously poor player against pips chopper.
(Actually, all top players of TPE have problems with pips chopper.)

Chen Chien-An (a lefty) played Muramatsu Yuto 3 times.  He won the earliest match (took 7 games) but lost 2 most recent matches - both at 1 - 4.

Not sure the "Lefty" is the answer that XX did tremendously better than ML (against Joo).
But I respect you guys' opinion.


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