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is it confirmed chinese players boost rubbers? |
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roundrobin
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Edited by roundrobin - 09/19/2017 at 6:28pm |
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roundrobin
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Edited by roundrobin - 09/19/2017 at 6:28pm |
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HuLimei
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And this matters because??? I mean at least get cite someone relevant to the sport like LGL and not some random "man of integrity" you just happened to come across. |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Who is Samson? (www. samsondubina.com)Coach Samson Dubina is a US National Team Coach and recently was named at the USATT Technology Coach of the Year Samson started table tennis at age 12 in Canton, Ohio at a local church then progressed to the Canton Table Tennis Club at the YWCA. Four years later, his game saw huge improvements under the instruction of coach Carl Hardin. He then continued sharpening his skills as a training partner for the Olympic team of Canada from 2004-2007. In recent years, Samson has achieved many titles while traveling to Europe, Asia, and throughout North America competing in nearly 400 tournaments over the last 20 years. Currently Samson is training, competing in tournaments, coaching the top players in the state of Ohio, and is now coaching the top players in America as a US National Team Coach. Samson's Titles and AchievementsEdited by berndt_mann - 09/17/2017 at 4:02pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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rocketman222
Gold Member Joined: 01/06/2007 Location: Walnut Creek,CA Status: Offline Points: 1152 |
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Comments are the best part of the video!
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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(Baal)
My professional friend played in Europe in a pretty high league. He is actually a player that some people here would recognize but I am not going to "out" him for boosting. His secret fluid was Dandoy, but maybe their is something better now. He never mentioned treating the top sheet though. Edited by Baal - 11/15/2012 at 12:30am Edited by berndt_mann - 09/17/2017 at 5:11pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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And so Berndt? Wjat is your point? One that you havent already made?
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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My point, which I have yet to make, is simply this. Did your friend, a professional table tennis player who used (and if he is still playing, maybe still uses) a boosting oil (Dandoy) inform you as to whether or not other table tennis players, including but not restricted to members of the Chinese National Team, were also using "secret" fluids to fine tune their rubbers to a finely tuned, but impermissible under the ITTF rules as of 2012 and the present ITTF rules of 2017, but illegal four octaves and a perfect fourth above middle C pitch? Shocked? Well no, not hardly.
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Yes. He said everyone in the professional league he played in at that time applied their own booster. That was a European league. That was several years ago. No readon to think anything has changed.
I don't think he could have first hand knowledge about CNT. |
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1226 |
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""As for the suggestion that the rules don't apply to non-ITTF tour players, that's nonsense. We all play to 11 points; we alternate serves after every two points; we all have one red and one black rubber. We are as bound by the rules as any professional. If you're not following the ITTF's rules then you're not playing table tennis."
Your stupid words, not mine!! Again, not everyone is bound by the ittf, not all games are bound to the ittf. Like I said, I know some ppl still play to 21. And they do not toss the ball. What are you gonna do about it?!? I can't do a thing about it. Go ahead and try doing something. It would be fun to watch. FdT Edited by Fulanodetal - 09/17/2017 at 7:13pm |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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(roundrobin, OOAK Table Tennis Forum, 2011)
Well, you just gave me the textbook definition of "hypocrites". This is why I'd prefer to take Pushblocker's side when he's accused of "cheating". I detest hypocrites more than anything, as they are infected by the incurable disease of delusional sense of superiority. Boosting silently by many inverted players is just as bad or worse than Olivier publicly bragging about his low friction long pips, but where is the outcry? Again, I hate hypocrites...
Someone needs to shine a light on these cockroaches. Cheating is cheating. |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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ttTurkey
Silver Member Joined: 09/07/2010 Status: Offline Points: 516 |
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This is a simple variation of the prisoners' dilemma. Any top player cannot be sure whether or not the other top players are boosting, so he boosts to ensure that he is not at a disadvantage. The first person to boost gains an advantage, the rest are simply preventing a disadvantage.
On top of this, the boosting cannot be detected and there are no health risks so a top player would have to be a muppet or a saint not to boost. Think of steroids in sprinting. There are serious health risks and a chance of getting caught (we know this because some people do get caught, what we don't know is how many take steriods and don't get caught). Imagine how many sprinters would not be taking steroids if they were undetectable and did not pose any health dangers? About none? |
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ttTurkey
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This part is pure speculation on my part. It's interesting that Boll and Mizutani have been the loudest two opponents of boosters. Both were at one time promoted in their respective countries and elsewhere as the player to break the Chinese dominance at the big events, and both have peaked a little short of that.
Perhaps it is easier for them to rationalise this in their own minds by blaming it on boosters, rather than accepting that the top Chinese were that little bit better than them. |
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Baal
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Berndt, I know that most professional players use rubbers with a boosting agent, either applied by the player, a coach, or specially done by the factory. I think nearly all do, maybe even the ones who protest loudly. I have never suggested otherwise. So don't try for a second to tar me with that brush.
I have said repeatedly that I just don't care at all that people boost! That is why I asked what is your point? And apparentlyWeikert doesn't care either, so ITTF should just modify the rule to match what they actually measure -- VOCs and thickness. I already pointed out the problem with the rule as written now, which is that everything is illegal. Also the history of the rule, coming as it did from an ITTF administration widely regarded itself as dishonest and corrupt. This rule is idiotic, but it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the sport. Edit added: I just watched the Dubina video. He in fact says the same thing. He says the rule should match what they really measure. |
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Baal
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I am not a fan of the ITTF!!!!!
I am a fan of table tennis, especially all the great players of my lifetime that I have been able to see. Bengtsson, Johansson, Surbek, Waldner, Gatien, Persson, KLH, WLQ, ML. Also Zhang Yining, and many others. The matches we watch are incredible feats of athleticism and skill, and in my view, the game continues to evolve and players are getting better. I suppose I admire the players of the 30s for their accomplishments but I have no emotional connection to that era. I am one of the oldest posters here, and by the time I started playing tournaments, inverted rubber was already what every top player used and hardbat was an anachronism. Now if you don't share that love for our sport, and clearly you don't, really WTF are you doing here except trolling? That is a serious question. So far the answer for a long time now has been "nothing". That cannot be the answer much longer. By the way, in case anyone wonders how I can hold such views (liking to watch Ma Long vs FZD but not liking the ITTF), soccer is the most popular sport in the world by far, but who in their right mind admires FIFA? Or the IOC? Or the NFL owners? |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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. Edited by roundrobin - 09/19/2017 at 6:28pm |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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The subject discussed is do the pros boost?
Boll, Mizutani claim they boost when they choose to do't. The rules say you can't use boosting oils, But who cares about rules, if the sport it spoils? Baal claims he doesn't care one way or another To which I reply, okay but oh brother! roundrobin says I just write about harbat (sic: hardbat?) And I'm a bestie of Ed Ball's, and that's where it's at. For the record, I haven't seen Ed Ball in years, So calm down, rr, take a chill pill for your fears. I haven't written about "drive-by" pong in a while, So if you say that I have, say so with a smile. And if today's pong sets your hearts on fire, Stop and think for a moment just what you admire. Edited by berndt_mann - 09/17/2017 at 11:03pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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. Edited by roundrobin - 09/19/2017 at 6:29pm |
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1226 |
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"The subject discussed is do the pros boost?
Boll, Mizutani claim they boost when they choose to do't. The rules say you can't use boosting oils, But who cares about rules, if the sport it spoils?" Actually, the topic is: is it confirmed the chinese players boost their rubbers. Answer, it's alleged but not confirmed. Second hand accounts are not testable evidence. The ITTF has not confirmed it either not for a lack of trying. FdT
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bard romance
Gold Member Joined: 02/18/2016 Location: FL Status: Offline Points: 1185 |
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Y'all are crazy. Pro players boost. All this talk about testable evidence in a court of law is laugh out loud funny, do you want someone to take a video of a player boosting their rubber so that they can post it to the internet? Not really sure what the point of this thread is at this point but yeah pro players boost because they feel (and oftentimes do) need to. I liked the poster who mentioned that all the holier-than-thou people here should check themselves next time they jaywalk or burn a CD. Do ya'll get so indignant when you see someone doing that? If so I'd love to hear more.
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Baal
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I suspect that at the start the OP wanted to know what is the most potent booster he could try (based on the third comment in the thread, on 05FX), and from there it spun in its predictable directions -- as with every other boosting thread. Of course, if that is the case, we don't know if the OP would ever use it in tournament or if he plays tournaments, or what. But he has not returned to the thread since. I can't blame him.
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1226 |
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Bard, its not that I think they don't boost. I have a feeling they do as well. But the topic here is "IS IT CONFIRMED"...and that's where the issue of testable evidence comes in. If that is too hard for you to understand then tough. I don't have time to go get some crayons to explain it to you.
FdT
Edited by Fulanodetal - 09/18/2017 at 1:06pm |
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bard romance
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Your tough guy post comes off as forced and is pretty funny in light of the fact that you do, in fact, have time to explain given how active you've been on this thread. Anyways, my post wasn't directed at you, but, perhaps you misunderstood it so let me clarify. It is confirmed that pros boost because I and many others have seen it with our own eyes and you could easily get first hand accounts if you really wanted. Someone mentioned that Kristian Karlsson made an internet post to this effect somewhere. So if you guys really want an answer to your question like normal people then there it is, move on with your life. But I don't suspect this is the case. It seems you wish to keep on playing pretend judge, so then continue with your hypothetical court case over table tennis booster. Please let me know if Karlsson's testimony would hold up in a court of table tennis booster law, I don't know I'm not a lawyer. I'm also sure I could find pictures on social media connecting pro players and booster, or I could go over to some coach's house and show you endless bottles of booster and rubbers drying but you seem like the type of guy that would say that it's just a room decoration and wouldn't implicate the player at all. So, as I said, for the people who actually wanted an answer to their question, there it is, I'll let the rest of y'all play your hypothetical game. Let me know if you need a gavel as a prop. |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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Boosting rubbers is like going 10mph over the speed limit on the highway.
Lawbreakers all; and you know the fine if you get caught. The reason I make that comparison, is simply this: If you are on the highway with ten cars, and they are all doing 10mph hour in a group, the police will likely ignore you. Similarly, in a group of players using equipment of similar speed and spin (boosted or unboosted) you may be ignored. But if you stand out (your speed is noticeably higher than the group) you are more likely to be punished. ,,,, far more interesting than this "do pros boost" argument is the 'players rights' argument. Does a player have a right to take a $5 sheet of rubber and treat it with a VOC-free booster and make it play like a $30 sheet of rubber? Did you notice that I didn't say "like a $65 sheet of rubber?" |
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roundrobin
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I am sorry, that is just soooo incredibly lame. You have zero idea how courts interpret laws in the real world. Zero. Go ahead and gather all the evidence from third-party eyewitness accounts and social media to charge and convict an ITTF player of self-boosting. And while you are at it, go ahead and confiscate all the "endless bottles of boosters and rubber drying" you found at a pro's house and tell the judge about it and see how far you will get. Or you can keep living in your "normal people" world and be your own judge, jury and executioner. Luckily the actual courts are not staffed with people who think like you; they are actually trained to do their job.
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bard romance
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Correct. I am not a lawyer, and I no interest in applying the law to the use of table tennis boosters as that is inane. Unfortunately you missed the point entirely. The point you seem to be missing is that I don't care in the least about people boosting, so I won't do any of that stuff that you mentioned. I find it laughable that you've taken such an innocuous subject to the level of libel and court cases, lmao. I'm glad you've taken your fantasy table tennis booster court case to the next level in your head, let me know how the proceedings go.
Edited by bard romance - 09/18/2017 at 1:12pm |
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roundrobin
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The only fantasy I see is your claim that you know for sure you are right.
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bard romance
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So you are saying that I am hallucinating the bottles of table tennis booster that I see being used by high level players? Got it. I'll get that checked out.
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1226 |
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"confirmed" and "alleged" are two different things bard.
if Kristian Karlsson has made a video proclaiming he boosts( link?) then that may count as an account of him boosting. It does not prove others do. It doesn't even prove he does. Unless he is doing it in the video. He can't speak for OTHERS. Again, sure I dont doubt some pros boost their rackets. Or even the majority. But the use of language is important. "CONFIRMED" means it is PROVEN. Otherwise we are back to Inquisition times when all you needed was an accusation without evidence end up tied to a stick and being burned to a crisp. We have evolved since then. so the answer is a BIG FAT NO. It is not confirmed. FdT As far as the gable goes, yes send me one, I'll use it as long as you are wearing your clown shoes.
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bard romance
Gold Member Joined: 02/18/2016 Location: FL Status: Offline Points: 1185 |
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There are two groups of people here: those who were actually curious and wanted an answer to their question. That group of people can decide what to believe based on a little intuition and whatever else was said. The other group of people are those who want to turn to insane psychoanalysis of the legitimacy of claims, likely to stir up doubt of those claims. I suspect the reason is feeling some weird desire to defend the honor of those who boost (even though they wouldn't give a shit). I'll leave it at that. Here's an example to show you how pointless this sort of logic is: There's also no proof that Ma Long would beat me in a match. He never has, and there are no videos or match results out there to prove it. So, anything that anyone says to the contrary that is not admissible in a court of law is irrelevant. Right? Edited by bard romance - 09/18/2017 at 1:27pm |
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