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is it confirmed chinese players boost rubbers?

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AgReZz View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10/11/2014 at 4:51pm
If so what do they use?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2014 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by AgReZz AgReZz wrote:

If so what do they use?

any top40 player boost, most europeans boost with dandoyTRF,koreans, japanese,taipei..chinese boost with seamoon kailin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2014 at 7:00pm
dianchi glue booster 
rating solid 1000
moving up to 1001
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2014 at 7:39pm
No, they don't use Seamoon or dianchi in the national team. Those are both really common for the top provincial guys though. I know Chen Xi from Fujian uses Seamoon. They use a different haifu oil that's stronger in the CNT. This is what I heard from Yu Ziyang.

Edited by beeray1 - 10/11/2014 at 7:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgReZz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2014 at 5:51pm
Must be nice to have the boosters available. I would love to try my boosted tenergy 05fx
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurokami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2014 at 9:16pm
dianchi booster was one of the most popular in CNT, but there's some new ones out so i don't really follow. some have stopped boosting (or not any noticeable amt) though bc of greater scrutiny. haifu sanding is probably what beeray is talking about but that was limited production and older. 

@OP hurricane is meant to be boosted so of course, yes. even reg h3 was meant to be speed glued. NEO is designed for boost. the so called "tuning layer" doesn't boost itself. it's a protective glue layer to prevent damage to the sponge when you boost.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2014 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by kurokami kurokami wrote:

some have stopped boosting (or not any noticeable amt) though bc of greater scrutiny.  


I didn't know this. That's pretty crazy to think about. In my mind, the ones who would receive scrutiny would be the main players, but at the same time i would think they'd be the last to stop boosting. Where is it coming from? Internally, or internationally? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote schen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/2014 at 7:38pm
The Chinese national team primarily boost with Haifu SanDing Oil (the thin/runny dark brown oil with little particles in it and comes in the haifu bottle with a yellow cap with brush attached).

Dianchi (version 1 - pale yellow and runny in a large bottle with some particles - fails miniRAE test and I think was discontinued, and version 2 - same pale yellow but slightly thicker than SanDing with no particles and comes in the smaller bottle with brush in cap)

Seamoon (thickest and sticky, brown, no particles)

and KaiLin (similar consistency to Dianchi, but more transparent, no particles) 

are more popular among the provincial players because the SanDing oil hasn't been publicly available for some time now and only CNT members can readily obtain them.  Some provincial players have had SanDing from before it was taken off the market, or through connections to Haifu or CNT members.  KaiLin oil has become increasingly hard to obtain as well, and is the most expensive (and in my opinion the most effective) booster still on the Chinese market.

This information is from my club's coaching staff, a retired women's CNT member and a handful retired Chinese provincial team members.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/2014 at 9:07pm
if you guys get to 2400 then you should  start boosting
rating solid 1000
moving up to 1001
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fehrplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2014 at 8:23am
Of course they do, maybe not everybody but definitely the most! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2014 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

if you guys get to 2400 then you should  start boosting


That kind of logic sounds good...till you try to do it.
If boosting helps and you are 2375 trying to beat those boosting 2405 players you are at a disadvantage. Indeed you are at a disadvantage at 2375 playing 2300 boosters too!!

Me-i am not going to boost and not going to get near those levels, but for those willing to win at any price it is hard to enact that "wait till you are xxxx rating before you boost."

I suspect that there are a number of top world players who do not boost at all. But who really knows.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2014 at 1:52am
Originally posted by Fehrplay Fehrplay wrote:

Of course they do, maybe not everybody but definitely the most! 

if you could see the pros warming up very close  in the practice area  you can easily tell that they re boosting,korbel said that nobody can play at that level unboosted without destroying your arm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2014 at 2:31am
Boosting increases speed but most of all spin amount.
Even modern defenders boost their forehand rubber, incredible difference when chopping, serving, looping.
At equal level, If your opponent plays with boosted rubbers and you don't, no chance for you to win....
The same for top Chinese players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fehrplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2014 at 11:41am
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by Fehrplay Fehrplay wrote:

Of course they do, maybe not everybody but definitely the most! 

if you could see the pros warming up very close  in the practice area  you can easily tell that they re boosting,korbel said that nobody can play at that level unboosted without destroying your arm

Yes exactly, of course there are exceptions but I would also guess 99% of the pros boost. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Regenkurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2014 at 11:57am
It should be obvious to everyone that they use boosted rubbers and they have been doing so ever since the ban was introduced.

The need for boosting is even more pronounced with the new ball and it is no wonder that most non-Chinese pros are still using Tenergy on both sides.

It has been repeated over and over on the forum that they use boosted stuff. The question is where the boosting was done but it is irrelevant for the fact that it is boosted like hell.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2014 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

if you guys get to 2400 then you should  start boosting


That kind of logic sounds good...till you try to do it.
If boosting helps and you are 2375 trying to beat those boosting 2405 players you are at a disadvantage. Indeed you are at a disadvantage at 2375 playing 2300 boosters too!!

Me-i am not going to boost and not going to get near those levels, but for those willing to win at any price it is hard to enact that "wait till you are xxxx rating before you boost."

I suspect that there are a number of top world players who do not boost at all. But who really knows.


I think you missed Purett's point. In the context of the example you gave, he's saying you, as an unboosted 2375, would NOT be at a disadvantage against a boosted 2300, because a 2300 doesn't have good enough techniques to benefit from the boost. In fact, a 2300 may play worse with boosted rubbers than unboosted...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2014 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

In fact, a 2300 may play worse with boosted rubbers than unboosted...


'May' is the operative word here. Boosting Tenergy, your statement is quite possible. Boosting H3 (the topic implicitly questions whether they boost their Chinese rubbers), it is a lot less possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2017 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by schen schen wrote:

The Chinese national team primarily boost with Haifu SanDing Oil (the thin/runny dark brown oil with little particles in it and comes in the haifu bottle with a yellow cap with brush attached).

Dianchi (version 1 - pale yellow and runny in a large bottle with some particles - fails miniRAE test and I think was discontinued, and version 2 - same pale yellow but slightly thicker than SanDing with no particles and comes in the smaller bottle with brush in cap)

Seamoon (thickest and sticky, brown, no particles)

and KaiLin (similar consistency to Dianchi, but more transparent, no particles) 

are more popular among the provincial players because the SanDing oil hasn't been publicly available for some time now and only CNT members can readily obtain them.  Some provincial players have had SanDing from before it was taken off the market, or through connections to Haifu or CNT members.  KaiLin oil has become increasingly hard to obtain as well, and is the most expensive (and in my opinion the most effective) booster still on the Chinese market.

This information is from my club's coaching staff, a retired women's CNT member and a handful retired Chinese provincial team members.

Very interesting.  Apparently, since the information in your post was quite specific, members of the CNT did boost their rubbers in 2014 with at least three different kinds of boosters, version 1 on Dianchi which failed a miniRAE test and was possibly discontinued.  And apparently according to your post members of the CNT were boosting with SanDing oil which as of your post of 2014 could be obtained only by CNT members, though possibly other CNT members as of 2014 were also using Seamoon and KaiLin oils to boost their rubbers. 


Edited by berndt_mann - 09/08/2017 at 11:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2017 at 7:24am
"
Boosting increases speed but most of all spin amount.
Even modern defenders boost their forehand rubber, incredible difference when chopping, serving, looping.
At equal level, If your opponent plays with boosted rubbers and you don't, no chance for you to win....
The same for top Chinese players.


very funny!!!LOL

to win an opponent at your level does
 
not need right technique ...
not need tactics ....
not need concentration ....
only need the right booster !!!



Edited by andras - 09/09/2017 at 8:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2017 at 1:54pm
I can tell you from personal experience that mostly everybody who plays (with Hurricanes) an offensive game, loops from mid distance or beyond...Boosts their Hurricanes...And I am not talking about the PROs, but anyone who plays a reasonable level (maybe 2300 or up usatt, I have not played in the US for a couple of years now).

If you have ever seen a high level Chinese PRO play live (I have had the opportunity to see a couple of SuperLeague matches) I dunno how you would believe that there was even a question of them not just boosting, but boosting to a ridiculous amount.
The speed which these guys get off counterlooping, which the smallest of strokes, defies physics otherwise.

As someone who has used an unboosted H3N for a year or so at a usatt 2100 or so level, I can tell you that it's is not possible for a offensive mid distance hurricane player to make much progress without boosting. The difference between a boosted and unboosted H3N is night and day

Edited by ashishsharmaait - 09/09/2017 at 2:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2017 at 3:29pm
ITTF outlowed factory-tuned rubbers.   Effective July 1, 2017.

And they still looking for a way to control the boosting by players. God speed ITTF.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2017 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

ITTF outlowed factory-tuned rubbers.   Effective July 1, 2017.

And they still looking for a way to control the boosting by players. God speed ITTF.

A small step in the right direction, igorponger.  What will those players who presently use factory tuned rubbers do now that factory tuned rubbers are no longer permissible?  Try to play without them, or resort to using the boosting oils now available?  And if they play without tuned (boosted) rubber of any kind, can they still play as effectively as they could before when they had access to both factory-tuned rubbers and boosting oils?  After July 1, 2017, and it is now September 9, 2017, players who use boosters that once were factory boosted are going to have to boost them themselves. 

And so it goes.  Will the top pros resort to illegal boosting (have the top pros always resorted to illegal boosting?)?  Stay tuned. 

A better idea:  Why doesn't the ITTF simply ban boosting-tuning oils as well?  Oh gee, they can't because they're presently undetectable (I guess).  And the beat goes on and on and on.  Bozhe moy!


Edited by berndt_mann - 09/09/2017 at 4:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2017 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

I can tell you from personal experience that mostly everybody who plays (with Hurricanes) an offensive game, loops from mid distance or beyond...Boosts their Hurricanes...And I am not talking about the PROs, but anyone who plays a reasonable level (maybe 2300 or up usatt, I have not played in the US for a couple of years now).

If you have ever seen a high level Chinese PRO play live (I have had the opportunity to see a couple of SuperLeague matches) I dunno how you would believe that there was even a question of them not just boosting, but boosting to a ridiculous amount.
The speed which these guys get off counterlooping, which the smallest of strokes, defies physics otherwise.

As someone who has used an unboosted H3N for a year or so at a usatt 2100 or so level, I can tell you that it's is not possible for a offensive mid distance hurricane player to make much progress without boosting. The difference between a boosted and unboosted H3N is night and day


you're right, but 90%-95% of players have no need to boost,
 they just have to train and improve on the technical level.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2017 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

   ITTF outlowed factory-tuned rubbers.   Effective July 1, 2017.

And they still looking for a way to control the boosting by players. God speed ITTF.

I don't know about that. Sharara's words will come back and haunt them. Perhaps now is the time.

Sharara was quoted saying speedgluing was never banned, but that they have merely set limits to the VOC content, and that as long as the boosting and tuning process are applied at the factory-level, then all is good.

Another point is many of the so-called boosters and tuners are technically plasticizer that have real, legitimate use in the processing of rubbers.

Edited by zeio - 09/09/2017 at 8:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2017 at 6:25pm
I have not heard that Tibhar MX-P has been banned by ITTF. Open up a package and it smells strongly like Dandoy Biobooster. I'm not sure where Igorponger read this. Again, the reason ITTF banned VOC solvents in glue was for safety.

Hard to see why they even care about boosters.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chairman Meow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2017 at 7:16pm
Are any top players using Lidu booster (yellow or white) or Haifu black oil?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2017 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I have not heard that Tibhar MX-P has been banned by ITTF. Open up a package and it smells strongly like Dandoy Biobooster. I'm not sure where Igorponger read this. Again, the reason ITTF banned VOC solvents in glue was for safety.

Hard to see why they even care about boosters.


2.4.7 The racket covering shall be used without any physical, chemical or other treatment.  (ITTF Handbook 2017)

I'm not sure what this means.  If it means that a racket covering can't be either factory boosted or boosted by any other "physical, chemical or other treatment", then boosting a rubber whether done by a player or by a manufacturer would be illegal.

According to igorponger (Igor Novick), who is a certified International Umpire (correct me if I am wrong, Mr. Novick), rubbers can no longer be factory tuned (boosted) as of August 1, 2017.  Perhaps there is an addendum to an ITTF Technical Leaflet (I searched the ITTF website and found the 2017 Handbook but it mentioned nothing about a ban beginning August 1, 2017).  If Igor Novick would mention the ITTF source for this ban that would clarify the question.  I do not see, however, why, if he is a certified International Umpire, he would risk his reputation by writing something about an ITTF ban on factory tuned rubbers to a nearly 30,000 member table tennis forum that has no basis in fact.

As to why the ITTF would care about boosters, if used by a player to enhance his rubber, that is illegal according to ITTF rules.  And if Mr. Novick has received word from the ITTF that as of August 1st of this year factory boosted (tuned, for all practical purposes synonomous) rubbers will be considered illegal, then presumably manufacturers would not be allowed to boost them and players would not be allowed to use them.  Testing for illegal boosters is another question that the ITTF needs to resolve.  Or they can wash their hands of the question as to whether a factory tuned or a factory tuned/player tuned rubber gives that player an advantage when playing against an opponent who does not boost because they have yet to come up with a device that can with the necessary precision, whatever that might be, detect the presence of a booster.

The ITTF has painted itself into a corner regarding the boosting/tuning problem.  Or maybe there is no boosting/tuning problem, and thus no need either for manufacturers to boost their rubbers or players to boost them using oils such as Dianchi and Haifu and Seamoon.




Edited by berndt_mann - 09/10/2017 at 9:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2017 at 9:36pm
Berndt, you are an idiot.  I am sorry it comes to this.  But that is the case. 

Because if you take the point of view that factories can't do it because it entails a "physical, chemical or other treatment", then the problem is that everything the factories do in the manufacturing of the rubber would be illegal.  Every step they take in the manufacturing of the rubber is a physical, chemical, or other treatment.   When does one decide that the rubber itself has completed the manufacturing process? 

As for Igor, he writes a lot of stuff here that could only come from somebody in the fits of delirium tremens.  (Funny too that you are willing to accept his word because he is an umpire, because previously you were unwilling to accept the rulings of ITTF umpires qualified to work international matches as to the legality of serves.  You accept authority when it suits you but in this case your taste is quite bad).  In any case, your insistence on an appeal to authority is almost always a useless argument.  What would be a good argument is if you posted a document from ITTF itself showing that they have taken this position. 

In fact Igor may actually be correct about this, but it is not something I have been able to find with some considerable searching, and as with pretty much everything he writes, it is suspect until proven.  This new rule is not in the 2017 ITTF Handbook.  It is not in the most recent posted Technical Leaflet T4 regarding table tennis racket coverings.  And, the latest ITTF List of Approved Racket Coverings (LARC) from September of this year includes Tibhar Evolution MX-P, which for anyone who has ever used it, is pretty much the epitome of a factory-boosted rubber.  Anyone who has ever opened a pack of that rubber, or has ever sniffed Dandoy booster would know that smell in one second, also the way the rubber performance declines over time.

So I will wait for further conformation.  But if it is true, it is another example of ITTF being quite imprecise in the use of language, an ongoing problem with them.

In any case, on this thread especially, please trust me.....   nobody cares what you think about boosting.  Frankly, it is unlikely that anyone on the forum cares much for anything you post, which I would think would be something you are reminded of now on an almost daily basis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2017 at 9:46pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I have not heard that Tibhar MX-P has been banned by ITTF. Open up a package and it smells strongly like Dandoy Biobooster. I'm not sure where Igorponger read this. Again, the reason ITTF banned VOC solvents in glue was for safety.

Hard to see why they even care about boosters.




same with rakza9 smell the same like trf dandoy booster but its hard to believe a pro is gonna play with rakza 9
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2017 at 9:47pm
The other point is that it should have been quite obvious that when I asked why ITTF cares about boosters, that question meant, why did they decide to make them illegal?  Originally the justification for banning speed glue (glues with volatile organic solvents) was for health reasons.  Boosters do not represent a health risk.  (If so, we better get baby oil off the bums of babies pronto).  Later Sharara made some stupid noises that boosters were harmful and that "we want a clean sport", by analogy to, say, cycling.  It was a crock then.  The truth is that they think slowing down the sport will be good for it.  That is also why they increased plastic balls from 39.5 to 40.5 mm. 

But they never ever admit it.  They never come out and say, our goal is to slow things down, and therefore they never say WHY they want to do this.  The argument that it will give longer more spectacular rallies?  I can actually buy that.  They should just say it.   

The thing is that none of these measures really change the sport that much.  Going from 38 mm to 40 mm and then from 40.5 mm, banning speed glue, etc.  Watch a match from 1989.  Watch Gatien or Waldner, or Persson from that era.  The way the game has changed reflects changes that in large measure would have taken place anyway (some were well underway).  Korbel was already hitting banana flicks.  Schlager was hitting reverse pendulum serves.  A very young Wang Hao was perfecting his RPB.  Gatien was looping right off the bounce, like Harimoto or FZD.  I actually think we do have longer rallies now, and the serve is less of an advantage than it used to be.


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