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Plastic balls debacle (to all TDs out there) |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 at 10:51am |
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I was very disheartened when I saw that some of the best tournaments in the country decided to switch to plastic plastic balls for their tournaments. Among them - NA Teams, Westchester Open (and probably many others).
a) cost of the new balls – of course, in the case of tournaments, the balls are provided by the organizers;but there is hidden cost for the participants who naturally have to get at least some practice with the plastic balls if they want to perform well at the “plastic” tournaments. My calculations based on what I see from our club play in the last two months, show that the cost of the new balls is about6 times higher (!!) – taking into account their pricing and their horrible lifespan. b) the fact that the plastic balls are so short-lived doesn’t mean just the
budget problem. It means
that the balls are poorly made, that the material is not uniformly
distributed along the spherical surface (and we all know how precise the TT balls have to be in order for them to be
playable). This leads to bad, inconsistent bounce.
Notice that I am not talking about their slower speed or spin (or sound) –
that is something we can get used to; after all that would be similar to the changes that we all had to make
in 2000 when the entire world switched to 40 mm balls. No, I am talking about quality and pricing – and
both are horrible at the moment. Even the better plastic balls – such as Andro, XuShaoFa, Kinson – are
noticeably inferior to the average, 1 dollar apiece celluloid balls. I am not even talking about NIttaku
Premium or TSP 3-star ($1.5-1.8 each for celluloid; in plastic they will probably be priced at $3-3.50).
If it were up to me, I would wait as many years as necessary until
manufacturers finally came up with plastic balls which are virtually indistinguishable from current celluloid
balls in quality of the bounce, quality of production and lifespan. It should not be our problem that some
bureaucrats decided that celluloid is in danger of being banned all over the world, then realized it
was not true, but since they couldn’t admit they screwed up they went ahead anyway, especially after
manufacturers realized all the possible financial ramifications.
But as it stands now, ITTF has no intention of doing that, which only
encourages people to come up with conspiracy theories and wild guesses about corruption and greed. After all,
if an average club player (2-3 times a week practice) will have to spend $250-400 a year instead of
$30-50 just for the balls, what is going to happen?
Nothing good – mainly, a whole lot of players WILL NOT use plastic balls in
their club matches. What that will mean, is that less players (on average) will take part in
“plastic” tournaments, including our best high-level competitions. And that is not good for our
sport. Not good at all.
Even if in few years plastic balls will have become much better and
cheaper, we will still lose many
players, and the tournaments on average will attract even less
participants.
So my plea is – for all the TDs out there, please think hard and think
smart. I beg you, do not switch to plastic balls until you are 100% satisfied with their quality and their
pricing. Granted, this might take a few years, but that should not be our concern. Please reject the bad choice
that ITTF (and alas, USATT as well) are posing before us.
We should tell them (with our words, and with our actions) that they are
wrong, that they are hurting the sport, and their reasons are not only invalid but they are (or at least, seem to
be) highly suspect.
Thanks everybody for your attention – I know this was a lot of words . I just felt I really needed to pour it all out. Who knows, maybe someone will listen... |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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"It should not be our problem that some bureaucrats decided that celluloid is in danger of being banned all over the world, then realized it was not true, but since they couldn’t admit they screwed up they went ahead anyway, especially after manufacturers realized all the possible financial ramifications."
Jim, a very nicely written piece but I am afraid the wave to change over for the competitive players cannot be stopped. National associations want their top players to do well in ITTF tournaments so they adopt the plastic ball and this trickles down to the regional associations who run the regional tournaments with the same logic. I see people kicking and screaming against the plastic balls but buy them anyways in order to adopt to the tournaments. Sad but true. I think your quote above gave too much credit to the ITTF, ethics wise. I don't think they ever thought celluloid was in danger - they just want to put forth something to justify their corruption.
Edited by tom - 11/21/2014 at 4:29pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Edited by NextLevel - 11/21/2014 at 11:37am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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1dennistt
Silver Member Joined: 03/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 533 |
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"I see people kicking and screaming against the plastic balls"
I agree, I'm one of those "kicking and screaming" people, I played with a Joola ball last night, not fun at all. I block a lot close to the table, and I'm having a hard time predicting the bounce of the new seamed balls. Haven't tried a seamless ball yet. Even I can see the writing on the wall. Time to adapt. I'm sure I'll get better at this over time, I'd better or else.
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Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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"I actually disagree that XSF is noticeably inferior to celluloid. I can imagine another universe where those balls were made before celluloid and people wondered why one should ever use celluloid. "
NL, are you saying the XSF is better, last longer, and cheaper than the quality cell balls?
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iakovka
Super Member Joined: 07/14/2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 446 |
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Comparable to Nittaku celluloid in price (already, and with time I belive they will be cheaper), last longer, more round. About "better" it is rather a subjective parameter b/c am sure my racket is better than yours :))) lol |
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XIOM ZX1 Feel 85 Gr, FH: XIOM Omega VII Pro, BH: Rakza 7 Soft 2MM XIOM ZXI 88 Gr, FH: XIOM Omega V Tour, BH: Rakza Soft 7 2MM |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Yes. I am preparing for the teams so I usually do not use the XSF balls. Over the last two days, I have used them with people who were depressed by the Joola balls that will be used at the Teams. Both of them really liked the balls and said they played closer to celluloid. Both of them but particularly one of them likes to hit the ball hard. The one of them who does played a fellow junior who does as well and they repeatedly made shots that would have cracked the Joola ball in short order, and even hit the edge and net post a few times (which can on occasion break the XSF ball), but the ball survived intact. It also made be a bit scared for my all round play and for defenders in general who like these slow Joola balls what would happen if these XSF balls became dominant. I would definitely have to get quicker again and have less time to juice the ball (which means a quick return to Tenergy).
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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JimT, in my area, the clubs have moved their leagues to plastic as well. The clubs' biggest revenue generators are the juniors paying a lot in coaching & participating in the big tournaments. They naturally demand for consistency in type of balls used during league play (the want the same balls that are used in the tournaments) & if the club wants to be competitive, it has to comply.
Given that so few factories are manufacturing the balls, there is massive scope for easy price manipulation. |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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I actually liked XSF and Kinson best out of all brands I tried. However, many other players commented that they felt some noticeable differences between them and premium celluloid balls. |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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Using the word "consistency" here is kind of ... hmm... I understand that you meant they want to use the same ball as they will have to use at the high-level tournaments. However, any consistency (so far) is out of the question, for almost all the brands of plastic. And that was one of my main point. Until manufacturers start producing balls made with at least same level of quality, consistency, roundness etc as the celluloid we have now, it is next to criminal to force millions upon millions of players around the world to switch to that cr@p. If more of us would take some kind of stand on the issue, and communicate it everywhere - at the tournaments, to TDs, to USATT, to ITTF, to clubs, to TT companies etc - then perhaps we can make the situation change for the better faster. |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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Iakovka, are you trying to be funny or just like to argue ? Paddle Palace: 12 Nittaku Premium, cell:25.95;plastic 33.95. Where did you see people say plastic balls last longer? To the contrary I have broken more than 1 plastic ball in a practice session. I define "better" (balls) as enjoyment of the sport.
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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It's amazing how players can have so many different opinions on the new plastic balls. I play in 3 different clubs. All clubs have switched to plastic. I haven't heard one complaint about the new balls. My main club used to go through 3 or 4 celluloid balls each night. Now we lose one plastic ball every other night. We use Double Fish, Joola and the Nittaku premium. Our ball cost is now less than before.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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There are differences, but those differences do not make the ball worse. They make the ball different.
Tom,
You can get XSF balls for between $1 to $2 per ball and they last longer and are more durable than celluloid. Some say in bulk, you can get them from China for under $1 as well. They play slightly differently, but I would be amazed if anyone watched an XSF match and could tell that the ball was not a celluloid ball. In fact, some people liken it to a 38mm ball. Edited by NextLevel - 11/21/2014 at 12:38pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2338 |
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...You must be joking!!!right? |
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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I play in two clubs and haven't heard anything good about the plastic balls on top of complains about their durability. IMO that the plastics will get better but to sing their praises now is odd (to me). Iakovka, you have 1(at least) supporter for you view. |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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That is extremely strange. At Boston TTC we have used JOOLA, Nittaku SHA, DoubleFish and Kinson. None of them are as sturdy as celluloid - when people play with plastic, they break (on average) at least one plastic ball per practice (that's for every player who uses plastic balls during league night or practice night). |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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Pure physics based on their size while neglecting the material would dictate 40+ should not be anywhere near the 38.
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Tinykin
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Come on, Jim, they are thinking smart. Tournaments usually have sponsorship from a Brand/supplier. You just explained that the supplier makes much more from plastic balls. Why would any supplier-sponsor ever again encourage celluloid balls? This whole thing is about making TT players increase their spend thus more profit for suppliers and ITTF board members. Sadly, celluloid balls are obsolete as far as organised competition is concerned. Edited by Tinykin - 11/21/2014 at 1:03pm |
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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btw, some of the responses remind me of the arguments between Democrats and Republicans: no matter the topic opposite views (sometimes absurd) can be made and have supporters for both.
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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I disagree that the Nittaku Premium 40+ ( NP 40+) is inconsistent in its play. While I don't like it, it is plays very consistently. I also disagree with the notion that frequent breakage means poor quality control or that it implies inconsistent play. But I do agree with your request for TDs to exhibit restraint in using the plastic balls for upcoming tournaments.
I did rush in to using plastic for our upcoming Valley of the Sun tournament because it is held in early December many of our players use it as prep for the Nationals. And since the USATT rushed headlong into plastic, I followed suit ... and got burned. We now can't get the balls even though we were assured it would not be a problem. Further, many players assumed that "plastic = plastic" and bought the horrible Nittaku SHA 40+ balls at high prices and high failure rates. What a waste of money. We announced a change back to celluloid a few weeks ago. So as a TD, I'll be thinking long and hard about which balls to use in upcoming tournaments. The history of this change is a good example of failure at the ITTF and member association level. It has been pretty poorly handled from the start. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
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Right now I'm going through one ball a night on average with NP 40+. The balls are costing me about three times what I paid for DHS 3* celluloid balls.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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LOG1C1AN
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I've been playing with the XSF seamless ball exclusively for the last month. I play 5 days a week for 3 hours average. I hit the ball hard on the FH side. In that time I have broken a grand total of one ball.
I realize it's pure personal preference, but I like this ball better than the celluloid balls. I paid $2 a ball for the batch I have, but when I restock, I have found a place where I can buy 144 Yinhe balls (XSF rebranded) for $144, so at $1 a ball I will save a lot of $$$ from what I formerly paid for Nittaku celluloid balls. I also have 12 of the Nittaku Premium 40+ from Paddle Palace. I also like this ball, but I'm saving them for the last week of practice before Nationals. Btw, my club just held a 1 star tournament using the Nittaku Sha 40+ balls and the tournament director told me they had a a lot more broken balls than before. |
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wturber
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To clear old stock.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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tom
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NL, I cannot comment on the pricing of the XSF balls since I have not used or seen the pricing of any of their equipments before the plastic ball. A more legitimate comparison would be between the same ball level (eg. premium vs.premium) of the same made.
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NextLevel
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I would have ignored what he said had roundrobin not talked about the top provincial players/coaches at his club describing the ball as playing on their rackets as if they used "speed glue" when they used the XSF ball. So whether it is hyperbole or not, the opinions are similar enough IMO that they warrant mentioning.
Now if you haven't used the ball at length or played matches, it is one thing. Note that the XSF is probably the lightest and softest of the balls currently being made. IF you've been using the other balls, XSF is fairly different. It grips pretty well, has good feel, and can be ripped with confidence (but still has less spin if you are too lazy to spin it).
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
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The XSF balls are ITTF approved 3* ball - I don't know what XSF used/sold before the new ball came out, but I know that ITTF approved 3* celluloid balls were mostly the same so I am not sure what you are trying to say. There was Giant Dragon, but I don't believe I could get Giant Dragon at less than $1 per ball, so it was still within that $1-$2 range. I'm trying to make it clear that there is a plastic 3* ball that is durable and plays pretty well (see Logic1an above for a sample experience). It doesn't play exactly like celluloid, but people who use it sometimes prefer it to celluloid. It is as cheap as a $1 in some contexts. I used to get 3* ITTF balls for $2 per ball personally (sure, some clubs had cheaper rates), so I know that this ball is not expensive. Since it lasts longer than celluloid and is harder to crack (though it can crack more violently), charging a premium would not be out of place were that to be the case.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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tom
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easier to handle the short balls, I have heard comments to support that. what I am saying is I have not used or noticed XSF equipment before their plastic ball so I have nothing (from the same brand) to compare the plastics to either in pricing or quality. Most people say XSF balls are the closest to cell (as many did not get their hands on a NP) but the thing is they are not commonly used in tournaments so the competitors have to get use to the brands being used - see why people are complaining?
Edited by tom - 11/21/2014 at 1:44pm |
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tom
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"The XSF balls are ITTF approved 3* ball - I don't know what XSF used/sold before the new ball came out, but I know that ITTF approved 3* celluloid balls were mostly the same so I am not sure what you are trying to say"
what I am saying is to compare the pricing of the plastic to cell, one have to compare the comparable level of product of the same brand. eg. you cannot compare the pricing of a new top level sedan from Cadillac to that of Mercedes but only to the one it replaced (from Cadillac)
Edited by tom - 11/21/2014 at 1:54pm |
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Baal
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Arguably this is true. Certainly XSF are more durable. No doubt at all. Very good balls. TDs should adopt these. I am another person who likes them better than celluloid. Price is good too. I doubt that there are many people on this forum who have played with as many different types of 40+ balls as I have, or for as long. All of the Chinese seamed balls have the problems JimT mentions. NP40+ is too expensive and not very durable but play pretty well. |
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lineup32
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A good review of the current situation will add that ITTF made it clear that only international level players and tournaments would need to change. Considering that many of these new balls were and are still in the developmental stage it made no sense for National or local clubs to become early adopters so while ITTF is not without fault the early rush by national and local clubs that are 99.9% recreation level play to use any of these new plastic balls make little or no sense. Most if not all international level players have access to training sites that will give them the necessary exposure to these new balls no need to force or introduce recreation level play until all the developmental issues regarding manufacturing new plastic balls have been completed.
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