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Serve variation in a match |
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1534 |
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Posted: 01/27/2015 at 9:14pm |
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Here's a match where I made good serve choices, so I made a highlight video with some commentary here on a very snowy day in Northeast USA. Besides, I need to redeem myself from how poorly I played in my recent posting of a match vs Rich DeWitt. This match took place when I grounded the British Royal Air Force at the 2014 NA teams. Serve variation is a good thing, but should also have a purpose in the context of the match.
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passifid
Super Member Joined: 01/22/2015 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 348 |
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i love watching your videos. there is such a plethora of forethought to your game. your opponent appears more happy hitting it hard one way then the other and you well, its all placed with a purpose rather then the usual game.
well played heavyspin i have a lot to learn from your game.
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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Your serves are very good! Lots of spin, great mixups! I hope some day to serve that well :D
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acid
Super Member Joined: 04/10/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 420 |
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good serves ! and very fun to watch
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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I like your FH grip block on ball looped at your body. You are expecting and ready for the ball to go to your FH, but it goes at your body, all you can do is swing the bat with your FH rubber facing at and meet the ball... and it is very effective, almost like a Seemiller grip block.
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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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Heavyspin, your relaxed persona is so cool...
Great video and narrative tips... |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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Wow, the gent in red would beat me easily...
I still think your match against Rich was not played that poorly at all.
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Victor_the_cleaner
Gold Member Joined: 12/26/2014 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1428 |
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dude, you are really good. I will say what everyone is thinking: if you lost some weight you can do some real damage. I know its easier said than done; i am struggling myself.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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The gent in red is over 2000. Shoulda coulda woulda beaten him...
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Heavyspin,
At the risk of giving away trade secrets, does one repeat the same variation of a serve over and over until the opponent solves it, or does one throw in the variant to keep the opponent honest before he realizes you have one? |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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kakapo
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2013 Location: Mordor Status: Offline Points: 3430 |
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Very nice services and backhand and forehand blocks
But there is something I have more and more noticed when I watch videos from American players on this forum. I wonder why, in these videos, there are almost never short services. However, I know a lot of you can make very short spiny services (especially you, heavyspin)..... Is this a "frequent" coincidence, or because you absolutely want to give the initiative to the opponent in order to block his shot ? Because you like boum boum style :))) |
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Def play grey grip 94gr, Venus 2 blue 2,2, Neubauer KO extreme 1,3mm
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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Sanga really looked like he had problems with your serve from the point snippets on the video. Almost like he couldn't decide what to do with a return. Attack and get countered or try to keep tight and hope it stays safe enough not to get attacked hard. Were any of the other RAF guys at the match?.
I think Sanga plays in one of the lower divisions in the British league if memory serves. Nice lad. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Maybe I should post my match with Sanga so that people get a more realistic view of his abilities. I played Matt Faulkner as well. They played as a British RAF team.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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Please, don't hesitate, we are waiting...
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I don't think that is true - it is more about levels and the kind of opponent you are facing. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1534 |
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I tend to go with one that works until it stops working, then mix it up but not always. Either approach works, imo. I don't have a scripted game plan for my serves, the choice of serves just comes to me instinctively after 25+ years of tournament play. I doubt my thoughts in the Sanga match were on the same conscious level as my commentary would imply, but most of it was with conscious thought. After reviewing the match, I interpreted what instincts came to me. I certainly note when a special serve is handled well by my opponent. Also keep in mind that from July thru September prior to the teams, I was doing nothing but practicing the Ma Lin serve for my video, so my serve touch was very sharp.
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Victor_the_cleaner
Gold Member Joined: 12/26/2014 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1428 |
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My rule of thumb is always start with long serves. Unless my opp can rip them, i keep going long 90% of the time, using short only when I see him wait too far from table. The nice thing about long serve is that your opponent can't push is short, so unless he attacks it, the return will be a loopable ball. Honestly unless as variation, i don't see the point of serving short vs a blocker, push-blocker, chopper or any other kind of defender. The problem is that most folks over 2000 are loopers and will not let a long serve go unpunished. Even then it can work if it is really well disguised as a short serve. you have to be careful not to do a big back swing. Theres one guy in my club who always reads my long serve motion and steps around and just tees off serve. But this guy's got complete game, not just serve. He's got superb touch, superb timing, i really want to see what he could do if he were fit. Edited by Victor_the_cleaner - 01/28/2015 at 12:11pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Long serves come in different shapes and sizes. Some opponents are inherently weak vs short serves so unless you don't practice attacking higher balls over the table, and even if so, you may be losing something if the main reason you serve long is because the opponent is not attacking. I am not as careful about being double bounce short if the opponent doesn't attack, but serving deliberately long requires fast serves and those even if not attacked can reduce.your time to return the ball as well
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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it depends on what you are feeling and what opponent can do or has shown you what he has not yet done.
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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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My match with Sanga.
My match with Faulkner. Terrible Camera angle. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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You really cannot be serious. A real difference between a 2100 who was once 2300 and a kid coming up into 2100 and trying to maintain there/improve.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Serious, as defined by rating. HS has averaged 2100-2200 the last few years. I'm not counting his drop in rating using LP, HS is not a 1900-2000 level player.
Does HS have a LOT more experience than my opponent in the finals? Sure, prolly more than he has been alive and a decade added to that. Would HS defeat this opponent head to head, even if their rating is pretty close (like within 10-75 points)? I would bet a year of lunch on that if HS uses 2X inverted he wins.
My point was that my opponent's playing level defined by rating was similar to HS level and my opponent used short serves mostly, that at that level some US players use short serves, rely on them. I said that so kakapo would know his idea that US players don't serve short on forum vids isn't always the case. That was all the comment was for. It wasn't to say my opponent is the same player HS is, few are the player HS is.
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Hey NL, Ur game 1 vs Samba, luv how you earned 6-7 points from your underspins he was either eating strawberry jam or not quite seeing the spin. Too bad you made your own errors on FH, and a few on BH. Your two deep/fast serves were so effective - a very point that even at your 2000+ level and vs Samba's level, you don't have to stay short all the time.
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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HS has his reasons for using short, half long or long serves. HS is more than fully capable of deciding what serve to use when and how. His match vid vs Samba was a good example that there isn't a blind dictum that serving short is always gives the strategic advantage. NL's two long serves in Game 1 vs Samba showed that too, both of those serves either won the point, set it up, or gave him a huge advantage in the rally. I have my own reasons for short serves, half long or deep fast and I am not half the tactician or have half the touch and control HS has.
Players who are not USA players reading the internet forums rightfully observe what they observe and wonder. That is good. So is a good player's decisions to not blindly use one type of serve predominantly, unless it getting results easily and reliably, then it is green light game-on.
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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NL, thanks for both the vids, vs Sanga and vs Matt. Good quality recordings. Probably I would not like the lighting. You are still young... have a really nice backhand, and overall great potential. In my club at your rating level we have just two LP defenders, and quite a few natural loopers, most are progressing nicely. In lieu of our little bet on rating we have with you (JGM vs NL-1000), I need to begin to work hard once I get over the current sinusitis/bronchitis that has kept me in bed for the last two weeks.
In the two matches, on a few occasions you did indeed nicely win points by very surprising serve variation. In the Sanga match you could have done better, it looked to me like you did get a little upset by the end, who wouldn't. That guy has got some defensive note to his game, that can be pissing people off, I don't know...
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Usually, many people misread the amount of underspin on my BH serve especially when I serve it with Tenergy 05. The tournament was a useful learning experience as it helped me understand the issues with some of my strokes and some of the things I need to do better. I only made small changes in practice between the tournament and January because I didn't want a radical change to set my level back, but now I have achieved my main rating goal, I am going to revisit my forehand technique especially a bit more radically. On the long serves, here is my view: quality deep serves are effective at any level - they just aren't the preferred serve strategy for a looper. There is a difference between the double bounce serve that drifts too long and the deep fast long serve. The deep fast long serve is actually difficult to consistently execute and takes away time from the server even more seriously than a short serve does if the return is of decent quality.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Young, yes, but with very bad inflammatory arthritis. In real-time, I felt like this: I lost the 4th set when I felt I should have won it and then he made/continued a good tactical change to approaching my heavy push - I didn't have a stroke to adjust to his return once he had pulled me over the table. I haven't rewatched the match recently, so I might feel differently if I did. Today, based on my memory of the match, I would work on pushing some of those balls to his wide forehand with my forehand. I always feel I could have done better but my strokes are what they are at the time of the match and without a coach to help, I have to accept my strategy. I needed a better return to the short forehand serve he was giving me and I didn't have one. But rewatching the match might make me see other things. To just win the bet, all you have to do is work on a specific aspect of your game for a month or two. Just one aspect, probably the best aspect. If you get that more consistent, 200 pts at your level tends to be easy to come by.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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Sorry about your arthritis; that should be largely treatable, I hope. As for the 200 points... well, thanks, but I have been trying for a long time. I got a tripod, will eventually record some new matches.
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I'll reserve judgment until I see you play, but trying is usually not the issue. The problem is technique and practice partners. There are lots of people who come to my club everyday and haven't gotten better in a while. It's not because they are not trying, but because they don't know how to build technique. I know a couple of people who only make it in twice a week but have made large improvements because they work with a coach on their technique. Learning to serve with significant spin and to hit the ball with significant spin tends to go a long way. I tell people all the time that it takes you from one class of players into another class of players so quickly that it's almost cheating. And note I said spin, not speed.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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hookumsnivy
Gold Member Joined: 11/04/2010 Location: Syracuse, NY Status: Offline Points: 1599 |
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Agree 100%, especially in the service department. My rating is largely a function of my serves which have always been very spinny. Against lower level players, if your serve is giving them fits they will worry about it so much that it will impact the rest of their game. I've been on both side of that. A few years ago I played a guy who had a very similar rating to myself, but I owned him on serves. They weren't tricky or anything, just deep, heavy, underspin to his FH (he was a lefty) and some to the BH. He got so fed up after looping and pushing into the net and feeding my FH with slow long pushes that eventually he started lobbing the serve. At the time we were both near 1550. Now I'm finally figuring out how to mix in no-spin serves effectively. It took me the longest time to get it to work properly. A heavy ball followed by a no spin serve (and vice versa) can really mess with someone. A week or so ago I had an opponent at the club say I messed up a serve. He said he was able to see the label but it looked like I meant to make it really spinny. At that moment I knew all that work payed off.
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