considerate or bad coaching?

(to Baal)  I just got finished watching some of a match between Ma Long and Timo Boll which took place in 2012.  Both gentlemen, being world class players, have I presume reverse pendulum serves as well as conventional pendulum serves.

Neither player serves legally, though Timo Boll's serves are somewhat more legal than Ma Long's.  Boll tosses the ball slightly backward, hiding contact with his body.  Ma tosses the ball more backward, hiding contact with his head.  No faults were called in the 15 minutes of the match I watched.

Back in the good old days of 1998, I remember watching Christophe Legout playing Jean-Michel Saive at the U.S. Open in Houston, TX.  Legout had a vicious illegal slider of a reverse pendulum serve curving away from Saive's forehand which was a point winner provided he got it across the table.  Which sometimes he didn't.  His contortions were amazing to behold, and the ball bouncing off the edge of the table almost back into the stands after a fluffed serve even more so.




Edited by berndt_mann - 02/27/2015 at 6:38pm

Actually, ttTurkey, on reconsideration it may well have been a reverse reverse pendulum serve, wondrous to behold, but short lived, as only Legout and Damien Eloi could bring one of those suckers off, some of the time anyway.

Today the reverse reverse pendulum serve, like the reverse penhold forehand drive (think Roger Federer but with a penhold grip) has been mothballed.  Will we ever see its like again?

And yes, it was impressive.  Or perhaps an optical illusion.  Or perhaps I chugged too many triple espressos.  At any rate, lefties are strange creatures who can do strange things.

This from a natural lefty who became a converted righty.  Sinister, huh?














Edited by berndt_mann - 02/26/2015 at 10:19pm

It does not take much to appall you, does it, Baal?  Perhaps a blatantly illegal serve or two might brighten up your day.

Berndt. When i saw your very first post, i thought you'd be a great addition to the forum. You put a lot of work in your opener and you've seen table tennis through the years. However, I was severely mistaken.

Baal wrote: I dont wonder. None of my business what this guy does with the kid. If he is serving illegally in a tournament call an umpire. Preferably one who is competent. Someone who is not convined that pendulum serves ruined the sport Even though nowadays you better have a reverse pendulum. Which incidentally is almost never hidden.

I haven't checked, but considering the motion and toss (and that you don't want the toss to be different from the "normal"and hence provide a clue about what's coming) I'd bet a bunch get hidden by the head on the downward trajectory. 



Edited by wturber - 02/27/2015 at 10:34am

(geardaddy)Perhaps it is because you don't play the modern game of TT that you don't understand that these issues of so-called illegal activity and equipment are just one relatively minor aspect of the game.  If anything though, this dishonorable behavior is more prevalent and has a bigger impact at the amateur level than the international level (which is not uncommon to any competitive sport).

I've attended clinics run by such notables as Cheng YingHua, Jack Huang and Larry Hodges (who BTW makes it a point to serve legally), and Dan, Randy and Ricky Seemiller.
Carl Hardin, once an International Level Coach, was my coach for playing with inverted sponge rubber from about 1998-2005, when injuries due to falls, among other problems which are really none of your business, forced me to retire from competitive play.

BTW, in a doubles event at the Arnold Classic played in the Columbus, OH convention center in 2005, I, playing penhold/reverse penhold with 2.1 mm Bryce on a Nittaku CP-548 carbon blade, and partnered with Sasa Drinic, then about a 2550 player, managed to reach the finals of that event, losing to Barney Reed Jr. and the then young Austin Priess in a best 2 out of 3 match.  Both Mr. Drinic and I got a check for $75 from Robert Blackwell of Killerspin TT for our efforts.

As for your apparent contention that "dishonorable behavior" as you term it, is common in other sports, yes, to some extent it is.  Americans know about steroid use in baseball, football, and possibly basketball, but can you name a professional tennis player who consistently footfaults, a professional golfer who tosses the ball back onto the green rather than using a club to get there, or are you aware of "dishonorable behavior" among professional racquetball, squash or badminton players?

(geardaddy again) You seem to keep pressing this argument that the HB game back in the day was clean and pure, and that should one of the greats of the past be able to come back to life and pick up one of these "cheater" paddles with sticky, boosted rubber, then they would certainly put these modern day masters of skullduggery to shame.  Popycock.

Read my posts more carefully.  I have neither claimed that the HB game was clean and pure, and have mentioned the disservice to the sport caused by those players who employed finger- and knucklespin serves.  But the HB game back in the day after those serves were banned was cleaner and purer than the table tennis as played today.

And no, I have never claimed that any of the HB greats of the past, were they able to come back to life could put "those modern masters of skullduggery" to shame.  In fact, were you to read my posts more carefully, you'll find I've written just the opposite.  None of the greats of the past, let me repeat, none, would stand a ghost of a chance against the modern masters of skullduggery, no matter what they used, whether that be some variety of Tenergy on a Nittaku Resoud, or any other blade manufactured since the rise of Waldner, which as we all know is when the history of table tennis began.

P.S.:  Not that this matters a great deal, but if you're going to denigrate me, the correct term is "poppycock", not "popycock".


Edited by berndt_mann - 02/27/2015 at 7:51pm

Some conversations and arguments are not worth having. Especially on the internet - I doubt anyone's minds have been changed, ever, by a forum flame war.

Berndt you are correct. I don't care how they call them but do it the same way from one match to the next. I never feared hidden serves c But I would prefer that good serves remain part of good play. I also do not think that Timo Bill serves illegally by any normal reading of ITTF guidance on this. Jay had posted that earlier (how ITTF wants umpires to interpret the rules).

(fatt)  I confess I tend to recognize myself in what you wrote above though. The only bright side of that guy now appears to reduce pna and agtx to the level of altar boys of ping pong posting .

Are you referring to the Christian rock band the Altar Boys by any chance, fatt?

After ten years studying piano, five years voice, and three+ years at the Cleveland Institute of Music, I would hope my musicianship, if not in your opinion my ping pong posting behavior, would be of somewhat higher quality than theirs.

At any rate, what I believe you meant to write, when referring to "that guy" whom I presume to be I, is that "that guy" appears to elevate, not (quote) reduce, pna and agtx to the level of altar boys of ping pong posting (unquote).

That is all right.  We all, even I, make mistakes and I have a pretty thick skin, though now bruised and sunburnished by my sometime forays into the Tucson heat.  And no, I am not laughing out loud at your inadvertent miscue regarding the level or lack thereof of altar boys.  I'm far too gentlemanly a gentleman for that.


Edited by berndt_mann - 02/28/2015 at 7:53pm

In one sense you are quite right, NoRema.  Table tennis, more commonly referred to as ping pong by the millions of recreational players in America who play it, is generally more game than sport, with rules for how to serve, for instance, and how to score (7-0 a "skunk") left to the mutual agreement of the players.

Table tennis is also, as we know, a sport, and a quite difficult and misunderstood sport.  And it is a sport fraught with dilemmas which this child will have to face sooner or later, if he genuinely wishes to play table tennis as the difficult and complicated sport that it is.

That should be up to him, as there are many pursuits that he might choose to pursue that are at least as rewarding as the pursuit of table tennis with the eventual goal of becoming at least a national class, and hopefully an international class, player.

Who knows what changes will be made in the next ten years to the sport, when this child is an 18 year old and ready to play table tennis at at least the national level, should he have the requisite discipline, coaching, and access to practice, match and tournament play with both his equals and his betters? 

International level coach Larry Hodges has pointed out a dilemma he faces when coaching cadets and juniors.  He is a sportsmanlike player who comports with the rules of table tennis.  As others besides myself have posted to this and other forums for at least the last fifteen years, many players do not.  Does he then teach his cadets and juniors to serve legally and to avoid boosting and tuning when there is a very good chance they will be playing against cadets and juniors who neither serve legally and who do boost and tune?

This child's father, a nationally ranked player, obviously knows the difference between serving iegally and serving illegally.  If he insists that his child serves legally, more power to him from the standpoint of good sportsmanship.  Should he continue to permit his son to serve illegally, more power to him from the standpoint of pragmatic competitive table table tennis common practice. 








Edited by berndt_mann - 03/01/2015 at 10:43am

GMan4911 wrote: It's the coach's job to teach a player how to win.  It's the parent's job to teach ethics to their kids.  If a player resorts to cheating to win, then the parents have failed.

tom wrote: popperlocker wrote: GMan4911 wrote: It's the coach's job to teach a player how to win.  It's the parent's job to teach ethics to their kids.  If a player resorts to cheating to win, then the parents have failed.  Depends! Some parents don't care if you cheat and steal, as long as you win.  They could choose to teach the kids the way they want, but doesn't mean they haven't failed as parents if they passed on the the wrong ethics

tom wrote: popperlocker wrote: tom wrote: popperlocker wrote: GMan4911 wrote: It's the coach's job to teach a player how to win.  It's the parent's job to teach ethics to their kids.  If a player resorts to cheating to win, then the parents have failed.  Depends! Some parents don't care if you cheat and steal, as long as you win.  They could choose to teach the kids the way they want, but doesn't mean they haven't failed as parents if they passed on the the wrong ethics Depends! If you are from Athens or Sparta.. You could say the same about parents that teach their children to be dumb sheep, obeying their masters, never leaving the herd.   Never leaving the herd has it ad/disad vantages, but is ethically acceptable:  which culture teach it is ok to cheat and steal?

Hi Pingponger

Your topic reminds me of Ma Long's early day when he just started playing international matches. MaLong back then was penalized quite a few times for not tossing the ball high enough when serving.