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Endurance workouts advice?

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    Posted: 02/26/2015 at 3:31pm
So I came to a realization. At local clubs i can play with the best of them, winning sets against 2000-2100 rated players. However after about 3 sets, i am completely exhausted and will struggle with someone around say 1600.

Now when i go to a rated tournament, there are going to be plenty of sets to be played. Not just 3. So what type of endurance workouts should i be doing to keep physically fit in the correct way for table tennis? I don't want to get rated poorly because i can't keep up long term.


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Do this to the point of exhaustion.  Then do some more.  Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2015 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

However after about 3 sets, i am completely exhausted and will struggle with someone around say 1600.

Hard to believe if you can beat 2100 players normally and then lose to 1600, but anyway...

I figure there are (at least) two possible scenarios.

1. You move like Ryu Seung Min. But after 3 sets, you can't move anymore.

Or:

2. You are too tense and stiff in your strokes. (This was one of my problems.) You need to relax your arm and body after each ball.

Sandiway
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoRema Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2015 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

However after about 3 sets, i am completely exhausted and will struggle with someone around say 1600.


Hard to believe if you can beat 2100 players normally and then lose to 1600, but anyway...

I figure there are (at least) two possible scenarios.

1. You move like Ryu Seung Min. But after 3 sets, you can't move anymore.

Or:

2. You are too tense and stiff in your strokes. (This was one of my problems.) You need to relax your arm and body after each ball.

Sandiway



Sure I can sit there and block and beat any 1600 player. But when I continue to try and play at the higher level I'm too exhausted to keep up the footwork and execute strokes correctly. The fact is after about 3 sets I cannot continue against players at that calibur


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A very effective and decently rapid way is to supplement your TT time with an hour or more of interval walking with a backpack of 20 lbs (of a lot of water, you will be drinking a lot), hopefully where there are hills and you do 40 seconds of normal walking, then 20 seconds of very brisk walking, almost a jog/run, then back to normal walking 40 seconds then another 20 seconds of fast walking...

You are walking normal pace twice as much as you are doing your difficult training interval.
 
You might not be abel to do a full hour at first, that is OK. Start with what you can and try to do a few more minutes more every day until you can do an hour or more. You do not need to run your azz off jogging, interval walking with a some weight will get the job done.
 
You do that every day for a month, you will be miles ahead of where you are in stamina now. There is now way you cannot be out of shape (or out of top shape) and NOT get in better shape by interwal walking that will get you to 90% THR on your intervals.
 
This is very easy to execute, very simple to understand, doesn't require a bunch of expensive equipment, can be done by yourself or with others, doesn't require strict time minimum (but you work towards doing an hour or more a day), can be done indoors if you have a treadmill and weather outside sucks, is very NON-Impact on your joints, and you will start seeing some results after a couple weeks.


Edited by BH-Man - 02/27/2015 at 12:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2015 at 9:53am
There is a principle of specificity when it comes to training.
Unless you have some abnormal weakness that needs to be addressed first,
Use the principle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2015 at 10:27am
Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

There is a principle of specificity when it comes to training.
Unless you have some abnormal weakness that needs to be addressed first,
Use the principle


Sandiway makes an excellent point about specificity.  And given some of the endurance events he's engaged in, he should know. 

"The Specificity Principle simply states that training must go from highly general training to highly specific training. The principle of Specificity also implies that to become better at a particular exercise or skill, you must perform that exercise or skill. To be a good cyclist, you must cycle. The point to take away is that a runner should train by running and a swimmer should train by swimming. "

So, if you already have a general fitness scheme, then the thing to do is to engage in some endurance activity more closely related to playing table tennis or actually involving table tennis movements ... or just play more table tennis at high intensitities.  I'm sure you can imagine some footwork drills.  Former World Champion Ichiro Obimura used to do four kilometers of frog jumps carrying a 40kg weight.

You also might want to consider some re-fueling between games.  You might be surprised at how keeping hydrated and ingesting a little bit of sugar/food between games can help to keep your energy level up.

Given my age (55), that I already play a fair bit anyway, and that I need to ensure adequate recovery and want to avoid additional pounding on my joints, I do hill climbs on my bicycle to augment my fitness level for table tennis.

I consider my particular climbs to be somewhat specific to table tennis in that the greatest period of exertion works my quads, calf muscles and glutes and because this period is roughly equal to the time it takes to play one long game of table tennis - after which you get some recovery.  When I do two or three of these two or three times a week, my table tennis fitness improves substantially.










Edited by wturber - 03/02/2015 at 10:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2015 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

However after about 3 sets, i am completely exhausted and will struggle with someone around say 1600.

Hard to believe if you can beat 2100 players normally and then lose to 1600, but anyway...

I figure there are (at least) two possible scenarios.

1. You move like Ryu Seung Min. But after 3 sets, you can't move anymore.

Or:

2. You are too tense and stiff in your strokes. (This was one of my problems.) You need to relax your arm and body after each ball.

Sandiway


The specific training stuff is paramount but I tend to go with cause #2 as the main reason for losing puff. I noticed it with myself when even after the 2 min knockup I was really tired and breathing heavily.
I now make sure that I breathe in and hold for a 10 count and move around flashing my wrists before I start my matches. But that's me, I am sure others have their own technique for reducing anxiety.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2015 at 2:08pm
Jay what software is that? It gives you google satellite image overlay in a PIP.
Very nice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2015 at 2:13pm
Multi ball drills are supposed to be great for learning to be efficient and relaxed.

If you're tense (you can't breathe properly) or overdo the stroke (backswing or follow through), you cannot possibly survive a bucket of balls at multi ball feed speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2015 at 2:30pm
My opinion is that you should focus on getting strong first if you are not already strong, and THEN start focusing on improving your endurance from there using the suggestions of either BH-Man or wturber.  Taking your squat from 135 to 300lbs, your overhead press from 80 to 150lbs, and your deadlift from 200 to 405lbs will do more to improve your table tennis performance and self-confidence over the next 3 or 4 months than any endurance based program.  




Edited by Ringer84 - 03/02/2015 at 2:45pm
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Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

My opinion is that you should focus on getting strong first if you are not already strong, and THEN start focusing on improving your endurance from there using the suggestions of either BH-Man or wturber.  Taking your squat from 135 to 300lbs, your overhead press from 80 to 150lbs, and your deadlift from 200 to 405lbs will do more to improve your table tennis performance and self-confidence over the next 3 or 4 months than any endurance based program.  

Yeah I agree - I've seen both Kanak Jha & Crystal Wang deadlift 650 lbs - that's why they're at where they're at.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2015 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

My opinion is that you should focus on getting strong first if you are not already strong, and THEN start focusing on improving your endurance from there using the suggestions of either BH-Man or wturber.  


Yes, I think that's right.  Looking at how CNT players bodies have changed since WLQ (highest level of the game) and looking at how one of my practice partners has improved dramatically by getting stronger (amateur level), this just makes really good sense.  Also the nature of our sport.  It's not a 10K.  It seems to me that if you found out the stuff that basketball players do to get stronger, it could really translate well to TT. 

Of course, like sandiway says, you have to mix this with really hard TT drills. 
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Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

Jay what software is that? It gives you google satellite image overlay in a PIP.
Very nice.

Sports Tracker Pro on Android.  I use it with a Zephyr Heart rated monitor.  It will play back with the Google Maps overlay - though it doesn't do it in real time quite right.  I recorded the route using a video camera while it played back on a tablet. I had to do some editing to get the playback to match with the real-time video.

Here's a link to one recorded loop ride.

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Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

My opinion is that you should focus on getting strong first if you are not already strong, and THEN start focusing on improving your endurance from there using the suggestions of either BH-Man or wturber.  Taking your squat from 135 to 300lbs, your overhead press from 80 to 150lbs, and your deadlift from 200 to 405lbs will do more to improve your table tennis performance and self-confidence over the next 3 or 4 months than any endurance based program.  


Yes, strength is important and matters.  That's why I ride hill climbs and not flat endurance runs.  Though you could use sprints if you don't have any hills around.  Out of saddle climbing up a 10% grade (while not in your lowest gear) falls somewhere between strength and endurance training. There's an 18% grade nearby, but that's a little tough on my knees unless I've been training regularly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2015 at 3:54pm
If you get exhausted just after 3 set, then either you are doing something wrong (watch a video of yourself playing, or get someone to watch you play, and figure out where all the energy goes), usually there is too much follow up, hence waist energy, wrong timing, which cause you to swing harder, or lack of anticipation, and needs to run harder on every point, etc..., or you play against an opponent way over your skill level, and can cause you timing, and anticipation going to hell Smile.
 
As for endurance, nothing beat running.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2015 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

My opinion is that you should focus on getting strong first if you are not already strong, and THEN start focusing on improving your endurance from there using the suggestions of either BH-Man or wturber.  Taking your squat from 135 to 300lbs, your overhead press from 80 to 150lbs, and your deadlift from 200 to 405lbs will do more to improve your table tennis performance and self-confidence over the next 3 or 4 months than any endurance based program.  

Yeah I agree - I've seen both Kanak Jha & Crystal Wang deadlift 650 lbs - that's why they're at where they're at.

Yes, I was obviously trying to claim that the best table tennis players in the world are powerlifters and that the strongest player always wins every time.  I'm glad you got the point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2015 at 4:04pm
I do a lot of different activities that are great for cardio/endurance, such as cycling (have raced mountain/road/cyclocross for years), X-C skiing (mostly skating, occasionally race), running, tennis, hockey, etc.  It definitely is an asset to my TT game, as I rarely have any issues getting tired during matches.  Plus these activities can be good for developing the explosive, quick movement that is needed in TT.  Others have often commented to me in how good I am at getting to the ball in extreme cases (and I'm 50 years old!).

What I would recommend is find a cardio activity that you can enjoy and is convenient.  You don't need to do massive amounts of endurance training, but 3 or 4 hours a week is a good base.  Running is always a lowest common denominator for getting a good endurance workout, as it's easy to do anywhere, any time of day, and provides a good workout in a short amount of time.  You really never need do workouts longer than 2 to 4 miles to get what you need for TT.  Cycling, X-C skiing, Rollerblading are all great methods too, albeit they can be less convenient.  Although I'm not a huge fan of indoor workouts at gyms, you can accomplish some good cardio base swimming, on rowing machines, treadmills, or spin cycles, etc (if you can stand the boredom).

So, having an endurance base is good, but as I said before TT requires full body motion, flexibility, and explosive movements too.  Other racquet sports are great cross training, especially Tennis, Badminton, and Squash.  Martial arts training and Rock Climbing are also good, especially for core muscle and flexibility.  Hockey is excellent intense interval and full-body exercise.  Yoga/Pilates are good for strength and flexibility.  Again, try to find something that you enjoy such that it doesn't seem like "work" to do the workout.
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Running is the most time efficient cardio training. Swimming is the best exercise for full-body conditioning, but it's less convenient.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2015 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by geardaddy geardaddy wrote:

Plus these activities can be good for developing the explosive, quick movement that is needed in TT.  ...

... What I would recommend is find a cardio activity that you can enjoy and is convenient.  You don't need to do massive amounts of endurance training, but 3 or 4 hours a week is a good base. ...

  ... Again, try to find something that you enjoy such that it doesn't seem like "work" to do the workout.

All good advice IMO.  My hill climb is a synthesis of what you are saying, but adapted to my personal situation and preferences. I started playing table tennis primarily as a fitness activity because I don't like routinely training in gyms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2015 at 8:01pm
Mr Jay Wturber, in your video (nice!) you ran a STOP sign multiple times... Big smile I presume this is NOT recommended for optimal endurance and/or fitness.
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Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Mr Jay Wturber, in your video (nice!) you ran a STOP sign multiple times... Big smile I presume this is NOT recommended for optimal endurance and/or fitness.

Yeah.  I'm an outlaw. :^)

I'm running them either while riding in bike lanes or on residential streets where I can see hear any cross traffic well ahead of time and where stop signs really don't belong anyway and should be Yield signs at most. I also rode on the wrong side of a divided road for about 100 feet.

Funny.  My brother-in-law observed the same thing with the stop signs.

I commuted for many years and many thousands of miles in Phoenix rush hour traffic and am very much aware of traffic, traffic laws and safety.  I'm especially aware of issues of being predictable for drivers of cars.  Legal behavior or not, my biggest safety risks on this ride are getting rear-ended by a driver not paying attention on the hill climb and flatting a front tire on the fast descent.  
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Nice area, BTW.Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2015 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Nice area, BTW.Thumbs Up

+1 Mr. Turber.  

I did some riding down your way a couple years ago.  Perfect time of year down there.  Didn't make it to the Fountain Hills area, rather mostly mountain biking South Mountain (which was excellent) and did the South Mountain road climb on a road bike too (Awesome climb!)

Went to Tuscon last spring too.  Tremendous riding there.  Mt. Lemmon is a beast of a climb!  I'm jealous.  Clap

I did go for a nice ride yesterday.  Not anything like what you've got though.  This is what it looked like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxKz9Wjq2Dw
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2015 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by geardaddy geardaddy wrote:

Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Nice area, BTW.Thumbs Up

+1 Mr. Turber.  

I did some riding down your way a couple years ago.  Perfect time of year down there.  Didn't make it to the Fountain Hills area, rather mostly mountain biking South Mountain (which was excellent) and did the South Mountain road climb on a road bike too (Awesome climb!)

Went to Tuscon last spring too.  Tremendous riding there.  Mt. Lemmon is a beast of a climb!  I'm jealous.  Clap

I did go for a nice ride yesterday.  Not anything like what you've got though.  This is what it looked like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxKz9Wjq2Dw

The sad thing is that when we moved to Fountain Hills - a place with bike paths and easy access to some good riding highways and roads -  I was no longer doing a lot of riding.

I used to use the South Mountain road climb as part of preparation for longer rides back when I did centuries and the like.  I've never done a ride in Tucson.  And the closes to the river ride you showed was when I took my bike to Denver for a week to stay with my wife who was training (work) there. I'm not a big fan of snow.  I'd rather do your river ride when there's some green in the forest - even if it is humid...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2015 at 4:14pm
Somewhat off-topic, but I've been having some knee issues off my right (push-off) leg.  I kind of thought patella tendinitis.  

My doctor suggested doubling up on ibuprofen to start.  She also suggested that the root of my problems are an imbalance in the strength of my front legs (quads) vs the back legs (hamstring.)

This describes me to a T.  In basketball, I was perhaps the weakest with the hamstring curls, but was perhaps the strongest when I turned over and did the leg kick-out.

She gave me a paper with some exercises, but the good ones seemed to involved gym equipment (hamstring curls.)  The paper suggested not to try to do squat type exercises that take the thigh below parallel to the ground.

So I've been doing three sets of 50 reverse-punches out of a horse stance daily.  That works the hamstrings I think.  Any better suggestions?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2015 at 8:07pm
These work for me for hamstrings:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/strength/exercise/Ex422/hip-raise
(you will see many other variations of the hip raise so you can try out different ones)

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/yoga/exercise/YG-IN-0068/revolved-triangle-pose





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2015 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Somewhat off-topic, but I've been having some knee issues off my right (push-off) leg.  I kind of thought patella tendinitis.  

My doctor suggested doubling up on ibuprofen to start.  She also suggested that the root of my problems are an imbalance in the strength of my front legs (quads) vs the back legs (hamstring.)

This describes me to a T.  In basketball, I was perhaps the weakest with the hamstring curls, but was perhaps the strongest when I turned over and did the leg kick-out.

She gave me a paper with some exercises, but the good ones seemed to involved gym equipment (hamstring curls.)  The paper suggested not to try to do squat type exercises that take the thigh below parallel to the ground.

So I've been doing three sets of 50 reverse-punches out of a horse stance daily.  That works the hamstrings I think.  Any better suggestions?


Here are a few.  Listen to your pain and for a little while at least, stop doing the thing that is causing the pain.  Think about the shoes you are wearing.  Above all, go see a sports medicine specialist since it is often the case that other kinds of doctors are decades out of date.  Trust me on this.  Be careful with ibuprofen or any of the other NSAIDs for any potentially chronic condition like this.  The effect on your stomach can be really really hard (non-zero risk of substantial bleeding that causes quite a few deaths every year), and there are very real cardiovascular risk factors with all of these drugs (latest prescription versions of these come with Black Box warnings from the FDA).  Also, at least some kinds of tendon issues have minimal inflammatory components.  This means the drugs will probably reduce pain but only slightly and probably not better than ice).  Also, it may not be patellar tendonitis, it could be a bunch of things.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2015 at 12:09am
Cole, I think you could be on with the muscle imbalance.
 
When I went to Korea, (and in my last Iraq tour) (Soldiers thank you for the stuff !) my first 3-4 months in Korea I had that real bad. I mean I would have pain walking stairs after TT, sometimes before TT. I lost some weight and did lessons and it worked itself out.
 
Another factor could be nutrition. In US (Especially the area you are in) almost all our meat is contaminated with antibiotics and agricultural chemical residue, then the no-fat moement takes away essential fats needed to process proteins and recover. The milk Korea had is much different with less of the bull crap in the cows' feed. Sodas and energy drinks are LADEN with baddie chems that will sap you too. Diet Sodas worse.
 
For me I think it was a combination of both and doing lessons and matches with better nutrition got it to where I tossed away the patella tracker thing after 6 months.
 
I think the footwear angle Baal is talking about gives problems to a lot of people as well, certainly for runners and TT people are on their feet a lot too. Even if the footwear is new, the form and fit inside might not have the right support and that causes chain reactions too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2015 at 12:13am
OH I gotta say Ibuprofin is super bad for you long term. Great for a rare headache you cant cure by lots of water and/or slepp, but taking that stufff for joint pain is gunna invite a lot worse stuff. Med community in Army hands that stuff out like candy and tells you to take it intsead of figuring out what is going on. They simply are not well versed in sports medicine.
 
We had a 1SG who took LOTS of Ibuprofin for bad knees, he was the top enlisted in company and was gunna run like everyone else, damn the pain and torpedoes. He ended up with a hole in his colon (from overuse of Ibuprofin) and it nearly killed him.
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