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Guess rating and provide advice |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Well, you said this before and I pointed out that while I might have played players from your club, you weren't the people I was referring to. And even if sandbagging is not the primary factor, it clearly is a factor. Again, having a high number of improving players would make no difference if they went out of the area to play tournaments. California is a big state, but I travel to NY, MD and NJ to play tournaments so my ratings are up to date. Many of the clubs I go to (Lily Yip, MDTTC, Westchester) also have training programs, but their players don't go to Nationals and make huge rating jumps because they play tournaments with lots of other players and have their ratings up to date consistently. If I spend the rest of the year strictly in leagues, I guarantee you that I will win an event at Nationals in December if I play. Wanna bet?
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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NL while technically U make a good point the reality is that USATT tournaments are basically revenue generating events and brackets other then open are artificial boundaries both age and point brackets to generate interest in the tournament and draw a larger audience to the event which pays the overhead. The rating system supports the tournament seeding brackets so the system tends to reinforce itself creating a variety of mismatches within various brackets. Its all about revenue generation rather then fair play and even competition, so for those players most concerned with sandbaggers they can play open level.
Best of luck this weekend at Sac
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beeray1
Premier Member Joined: 07/03/2008 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 5169 |
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The california regional thing is a myth to me. It has everything to do with the fact that a lot of players get streaks of coaching, or are up and coming, and are quick to play better than their rating because of improvement. There are just a lot of improving players all the time. Nothing to do with some standard 'regional difference'. But for a normal club or tournament player, My experience in the last 3 years going to play in CA says that a 1600 player is a 1600 player. If the inflation were so severe, then I would have no chance in a single match of beating and/or competing with players higher rated than myself who are local to CA while I'm from Iowa- yet I have done it. So either I'm severely under-rated (despite that fact that my rating has been basically the same range since I started tournament play) or it's bogus. That doesn't mean i've done WELL in CA, but I have beaten higher rated players and had very close matches with players 2-300 points above me- even more, just like any player does at any given time. If a 1500 player there were a 1900 player out here, there's NO chance that would happen AT ALL.
Something I think is important to take into account is perception of someone's level. You'll hear a lot of extra credit given from people watching a player if they simply have good looking technique, or can do something really standard but make it look good. That might have a bit to do with Mr. Rochester.
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Only the most well-established national chain franchises can exist in Watertown, and even some of those fail. Mom and Pop operations die the first year at a 60% rate. The local market is so not interested in TT right now, I would require a very large flashing neon sign advertizing free beer and a photo op with the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders and that still might not generate enough traffic to pay the lease. That doesn't mean it is hopeless, it just means it is financial suicide to open a club in Watertown right now. The POTENTIAL market in US for TT is SO HUGE I would be foolish to disregard it. Besides, I don't really plan on staying in an area that you measure snowfall by the foot or yard when it snows, I retire in a couple weeks and it is off to phase two anyway.
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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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As much as we do not like paying a lot of money, we have to know that a national organization that doesn't get a boatload of money from government has to make money to exist. We could all argue about how those monies generated could be used, but we gotta acknowledge that they gotta make money or they go away. Sure sandbaggers are around. A really motivated person will find a way to beat any system, whether it is a numerical rating system or a divisional system. If all there was for a tourney was the OPEN even, then only a few elite players would have any chance to win. It would be utterly hopeless for anyone else and they would soon realize that and not go to tourneys. That is why there are different levels identified to give players a BETTER OPPORTUNITY to compete vs players AROUND their level, so they have a MORE FAIR CHANCE to COMPETE and WIN. We could argue the last part too, by by and large, this system is much more effective than having just the OPEN. |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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The Class System Design .. at .. USA Hobby Table Tennis Coalition .. on Facebook .. cannot be manipulated by sandbaggers .. read the About Page .. |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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I believe strongly that even in a divisional system, one can take advantage. You just keep your division lower than your true skill and lose where there is an objective measurement component.
If there is more subjective judgment by an authority, then that is the only way to move up a sandbagger specialist. However, you do that and that sandbagger might not participate much and get moved down later. You try to make elevation to a division permanent... just look at my situation. I was strong Div 2 city in my local area in Korea, that ended up being short of 2000. I have been so long out of practice, have older eyes, venues have worse contrast lighting now and I am injured. I am lucky to play at a 1600 competitive level. A player in my situation would not be competitive in that division and would not be motivated to participate in competitions.
Any way you slice it, you wont get rid of sandbagging, unless you get rid of sandbaggers, then unless you got a super explosion in growth in the sport, removing them from participation in competition is almost like pulling the trigger on bird shot aimed at Ur foot. |
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aerial
Super Member Joined: 01/11/2015 Location: NY Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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So I am kind of sorry I commented on mts's comment talking about my matches against juniors in the bay area because it is has definitely derailed this thread's original purpose on commenting on hookumsnivy's game...
here is a thread I have made compiling all the comments that have nothing to do with what this thread was meant for. I tried to include everyone's concerns they mentioned in this thread and put it in the OP.
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bes
Super Member Joined: 04/26/2014 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 201 |
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Guessing ratings is tough. Both players have some skills and hit some pretty strong shots. But neither seems able to serve short more than 1 out of 10 (being generous). The guy in green has about the most 2-speed backhand I've ever seen. It looks about "beginner +" most of the time, then, once in a while, he rips one at a ~1800 (maybe better) level. The penholder does a pretty neat, and unusual flat rpb punch - but misses a bit too often. Many of his rpb loops look more like a banana flip - but occasionally he rips one pretty good. Both players move pretty well. Both usually attack to pretty good spots. Both have solid (if a bit inconsistent) forehands. Both miss way too much.
I'm guessing they are in the 1400-1600 range, but could be a little higher. My guess is based solely on "who at my club do I think they could a) beat, b) play close to, and c) have little chance against. In other words, it is a big guess! The shakehands player has a really solid forehand. With better serves (more variety, more spin, and SHORT!), better returns (less tentative - especially on the backhand), and a reliable (at least consistently "ok") backhand, I can see him playing over 1800. Maybe well over... The penholder seems to get good spin on his serves and he moves them around well. More short serves would be nice. I'd like to see him find a "middle" gear. He misses way too many openings and attacks. If he can be more patient and get more balls on the table, I can see him playing 1800-ish as well. bes
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hookumsnivy
Gold Member Joined: 11/04/2010 Location: Syracuse, NY Status: Offline Points: 1599 |
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Serving short is over rated. If your opponent has shown that he will not attack a long serve, there is nothing wrong with serving long. It's harder to return a long serve short, so it can be advantageous.
I think I (the penholder) have more service spin. I agree with you on the missing middle gear.
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sahiggs100
Silver Member Joined: 04/23/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 518 |
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I have to agree with hookumsnivy about the short serves thing. We all think short serves are better because we see the pros and high level players serve short a lot. At this level long serves will test the opponent much more. Short serves should still be used but if your opponent is having trouble with long serves or not attacking them effectively then you are going to get more outright points or an advantage by the long serve.
Of course everyone should develop good short serves as well because you will face opponents that you will need to use them.
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Blade: Nexy Lissom
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tabletennisx32
Member Joined: 07/27/2014 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 74 |
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Btw, who in this chat in this chat is planning for next US Open or Nationals? Just curious.
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tabletennisx32
Member Joined: 07/27/2014 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 74 |
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He looks 1400-1499 from his footwork and his serve. I'm talking about Pen.
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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I'll be there. |
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alphapong
Silver Member Joined: 05/11/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 622 |
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I think we will have 10 or 12 going.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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As I have told you previously, this is not true. Serving short is overrated to the extent that you can get away with it the way you do it, but there are advantages to short serves, especially a short backspin and no-spin combo. Most people push short serves, so being able to serve no-spin short will earn you a good attackable third ball at any level if people misread it as backspin. In addition, many players can't push short serves short, so you will get a long ball to attack. The other problem with serving long is that it creates third balls that are harder to time with the backhand. This is one of the reasons why you don't find short serves valuable - you don't attack enough with your backhand. Also, the returns to short serves are far more predictably controllable than the returns to long serves. Based on what you served and where, you can get an idea of the typical responses pretty quickly. Finally, as you get better, there are opponents who will safely return most of your serves throughout the match, but when things get critical, will show their true colors and start looping your serves. The only way to prevent this is to have the discipline to serve short at crucial points in the match. If you get good enough to see the results of such bad habits as you get better (and I am trying to fix mine), it will be a good thing. Getting a serve to be strictly double bounce short (as in low and not long enough to loop) is something that is best practiced early. If you serve lazy long to higher rated players with the right skills, you will be picking up the ball because guys have developed the racket head speed to overpower just about anything that comes long with a relatively closed motion. I am getting to a point where you can serve anything slow to my backhand and I can wipe it out with a similar stroke every time if it comes long. Most players can do that on their forehand as well. You don't want to be facing that kind of pressure in a match when you haven't practiced your short serves.
Edited by NextLevel - 04/20/2015 at 8:06am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Exactly. Moreover, there is a huge difference between good long serves and lazy long serves which are not fast and deep and just drift long. The former should be part of a good server's repertoire - the latter is the kind of stuff that leads to embarrassment when you play a looper and find that you can't start any rally because your serves are putting you on the defensive.
Edited by NextLevel - 04/20/2015 at 8:02am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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hookumsnivy
Gold Member Joined: 11/04/2010 Location: Syracuse, NY Status: Offline Points: 1599 |
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I'll have to record a match where I serve the vast majority of the balls short to prove to everyone that I can do it at will. I tailor my serves to the opponent.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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It's not just about doing it - there is a whole game style tied to it that takes time to develop. Part of the problem is that you don't attack lazy long serves fairly consistently so you don't see the danger. You take the balls early over the table rather than waiting for them to come long when you can really punish that ball. Think about it sometime - have your practice partner serve to you and see whether you can tell whether the ball will come long or not. You will be surprised how many balls you think are short are going to come long and you could loop with heavy topspin to different parts of the table to put your opponent under pressure. Because you don't do so, you don't have the spider sense of what you are giving your opponent an opportunity to do. You and aerial should look at this closely as this kind of sensitivity to long serves sends your level up quickly. At first, most people who learning serve short tend to have serves that are high and are easy to attack and push long to dangerous sports because they don't get the first bounce deep enough on the opponent's side or the short serve is slow. To produce an optimal short serve under pressure is demanding when you are not at your home club or practice spot. Even top rated players mess it up all the time. What most lower rated players don't want to deal with is the short push or being rushed by a push because their serve is too high, and this is okay if they aren't specializing in lazy long serves. Lazy long serving is a hard habit to break. I am going through the pains right now, and it is no fun, because you need to be able to serve repeatedly short with variation and deception or your opponent will be able to repeat the ideal response to your serve at will. If I had consistent fast serves, I would be good, but those are also hard to master as well.
Edited by NextLevel - 04/20/2015 at 8:44am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Snivey, consider this about serving short... Do you remember when I serve short underspin and you or someone nets it, then nexy serve I serve same serve, but with very little spin to get a really easy ball to open or a push that is out?
BH-Man isn't doubting your ability to serve short. I am just saying there are a few ways to do it that will work with your attacking skills and support you landing percentages. I know you have a good step-in FH kill and an RBP BH when you want it. Thing is, you should be angling to get into more predictable and high percentage situations and prevent the opponent from getting set and into a rhythm. Another aspect to consider is when you serve short and opponent doesn't try a very fast push, and tries to bump it short or a meatball medium depth, is that you have a LOT of time to get set and it is much easier to open (especially on BH wing) vs such a slow ball that you do not have to track for the entire length of the table. You are surprisingly more consistent vs these balls then even a medium push from behind the table. You simply SEE it better. There isn't much ball to follow and read it much better.
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hookumsnivy
Gold Member Joined: 11/04/2010 Location: Syracuse, NY Status: Offline Points: 1599 |
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Hookumsnivy thinks it's funny when people refer to themselves in the 3rd person
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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+1. Mid distance Loopers, lobbers and choppers get some of their effect from having the ball travel a long path to you and you have to time the ball. The forehand is more tolerant of timing errors, but the backhand unfortunately, being a shorter stroke, not so much. So short serving is extremely helpful for backhand players in that regard. There are some old school players who just do not know how to attack over the table, so you can serve them short and know they are going to push or give you a soft return every time. You might also get something similar when you serve long sometimes, but occasionally, when they need the point, they are going to detonate that ball on you. But by serving short, you are restricting their options a bit more. There are short serving tricks that you can use to beat players very easily. I won't describe some of them here, but I will hint at one. There was a guy I played whose league rating was high 2100s (and USATT high 1900s, borderline 2000) and everyone was surprised that I beat him twice as a 1900 player in USATT events, even though he was beating 2200 players in leagues. But the simple truth was that all I had to do was serve short. Because I knew he would push (he just couldn't flick). And that meant that if I didn't load the ball, I would get a light ball back (the height didn't matter as long as it wasn't loaded), and then I would simply use my backhand to load the ball in any direction or if the ball came long enough, do a barely over the table forehand loop. Serving lazy long too often just because someone isn't attacking your long serves is going to leave your game in need of a serious overhaul as you get better because breaking habits is hard.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Don't get started and have Der_Echte chime in. :)
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