Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Some thoughts and anxieties from an older learner
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Some thoughts and anxieties from an older learner

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Simon_plays View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 05/02/2015
Location: Vietnam
Status: Offline
Points: 1073
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Some thoughts and anxieties from an older learner
    Posted: 05/15/2015 at 1:06am
Hi everyone,

Sorry for taking up a whole new topic with my first proper post but I hope the things I'd like to raise here can lead to some interesting discussion from more seasoned players.

I'm a 32 year old beginner who's only started playing 9 months ago. In this time I've almost exclusively played with a coach, about three times a week, so as to get good basics first. Below are some questions that I have. I much appreciate if anyone cares to share their thoughts on any of the points.

1) How long will it take me till I can play with more experiences players without it feeling like they're doing me a favour? I've had a look at the thread about hitting with higher and lower players but what's people's estiamte on this?

2) As I'm older, should I try and train my fitness as much as younger players, or will this wreck my knees etc?

3) Following the advice of my coach I bought a TB Spirit with Tenergy 80 on the FH and Tenergy 64 on the BH. However, I worry that this setup might slow my progress and lead to me picking up bad habits. Any thoughts?

4) Do I have to learn the cross-step to become a decent player? I just can't seem to manage it.

5) What sort of level can I hope to reach with 3 sessions with a coach a week?

6) Will learning serves get easier soon?

7) Will returning serves ever get easier?

8) My coach beats me left-handed (he's right-handed...) whenever we play. Should this worry me.

Any answers much appreciated. StarSmile
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14822
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2015 at 3:05am
1.  Depends on what level of player, but you probably can already.  Practice is also different from match play.  In match play, the biggest obstacle is your ability to return the opponent's serve and the quality of your serve (and first attack).  At the lower levels, you may be able to do okay, though you may struggle against players with serves slightly or significantly above their level.  At the higher levels, its rarely the rally that will be your problem, you won't even get to it.  But once you can track the ball and return basic topspin balls, people can hit and rally with you unless they believe in elitist TT culture (which is unfortunately still alive in many parts of the world).

2.  It depends.  TT is not about fitness per se, even though being fit helps.  It's really about strokes.  If you are concerned about your knees, don't do anything that puts them under pressure beyond general play (its hard to avoid basic knee usage in this sport given the speeds you have to move around at and how low you have to sometimes get).  IT's possible to get relatively good without bending your knees if you understand how to play and have a coach who is ready to support you through it.

3.  The setup is fine.  There are reasons to get slower setups, but always use what your coach recommends.  Most bad habits are formed in the absence of coaching.

4.  I don't know what a cross-step is.  Just kidding, to become a decent player, NO.   I never cross step, though to be fair, I am 6 ft 1 with long arms.

5. Any level you can reasonably achieve depending on many factors like your basic talent level (especially for reading spin), your coach's expertise, your choice of game style etc. .  But the bottom line you can get really good.  I rarely get more than one coaching lesson a week, though as I have gotten better, I have played almost every day - I want to make a major push to maximize my level as I don't know how much longer I will have time to play this much.

6.  It's all about practice.  You have to go through long periods of intense practice to get your serves really good, though really good depends on the level of opposition.

7.  Yes, it's the part of the sport that responds the most to experience.  The biggest advice I will give you is to use proper strokes you have practiced or shorter versions of them to return serves, not generic blocks or weird light touches of the ball or blocks (yes, the block should not be used to return serves by someone really trying to get better).

8.  No - I would do the same to most of my students as well.  It of course depends on how good he is, but still, that is not a problem.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
smackman View Drop Down
Assistant Moderator
Assistant Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 07/20/2009
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 3264
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2015 at 6:53am
why do you play, fun, fitness?
don't worry about how good your coach is , and if you can play games against others and give the feed back to your butterfly agent coach (just jokes)
Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website
Back to Top
BRS View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 05/08/2013
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1583
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2015 at 2:41pm
1) That depends more on whether the more experienced player is a jerk than on you.  Once you can block well then most players will not mind hitting with you.  They may not want to play matches, but you can practice like the other thread says. 

2)  Not unless it's something you want to do for yourself apart from TT.  Time spent on training skills will do much more for your game.

3) Don't think too much about equipment.  If you are developing bad habits with coaching 3x week, perhaps change the coach, not the setup.

4) There are very decent players who don't take any kind of step, due to age, disability, or just not feeling like it.  Crossover footwork is probably not going to be the reason you lose matches.  If someday it is, worry about it then, not now.

5) In how many years?  Starting at 32 you aren't going to the olympics, but you can get awfully good with that amount of coaching.  Unless you have some goal with a deadline it's probably better to just enjoy learning and not put extra pressure on yourself.

6) No.  Learning and practicing serves sucks and anyone who says different is crazy or lying.  

7) Yes and no.  Returning the serves of your regular opponents will get easier over time. Then you will start beating those opponents and move on to new ones with better serves.  So returning serves will probably always be the hardest thing, but it won't be the same serves from the same people.

8) If he couldn't beat you left-handed, should he really be coaching you?  You are an adult beginner with 9 months experience, and he is a coach who has played for how long?  Never worry about losing to your coach.  When you can beat your coach, worry.

Your approach sounds brilliant, and I am jealous.  I hope you will post again when you start playing more matches with ordinary players or competing, and tell us how well all the coaching prepared you for it. 

Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14822
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2015 at 2:59pm
BRS,

I agree with all your answers except #6. It does get easier, at least for me it did. Once you have the basics down, the real issue is whether the serves support what you are trying to do with your game. If they do, then you will be using them so often that a point comes when you almost don't need to practice them because you have used them enough to know what the typical responses are to your basic(s) serve and what to do to the ball when you don't get them. When they don't, the nightmare begins all over but you know the basics of other serves.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
BRS View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 05/08/2013
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1583
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2015 at 7:15pm
Fair point NL. I should just say learning serves hasn't gotten easier for me playing three years. I practice serve around two hours a week to very little effect. OP has a coach (and probably more talent despite that 1000 post thread) so will do better.
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14822
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2015 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Fair point NL. I should just say learning serves hasn't gotten easier for me playing three years. I practice serve around two hours a week to very little effect. OP has a coach (and probably more talent despite that 1000 post thread) so will do better.

Well, how much instruction on serves did you have for those years?  And how much third ball practice?

In my experience, the quality of the serve is not as important as whether it produces a predictable passive return for third ball attack.  The main reason I would have liked to have learned Brett's serves earlier is that the serves would have grown with me as I learned more TT, but not so much because I think that having great serves changes your approach to TT.

I know to 2100+ juniors, one 17 and one 13 who had a different approach to serves coming up in the game.  The 13 year old received serve instruction early and grew with a very good pendulum serve.  It consistently troubled his opponents and often lead to popups and easy third balls.  However, his stroke development was relatively slow as a result.

The 17 year old pretty much could only serve no spin or light backspin for a long time.  In a related development, he had problems pushing or getting heavy backspin on the ball.  So what he worked on was being able to pounce aggressively on any return to his serve.  His stroke development was rapid.

In both cases, if you nullified what both players wanted you to do to their serve, they struggled.  But if you popped up the ball against the 13 year old, you got into a trouble.  A passive return, not so much until recently.  The 17 year old rarely ever got popups so he was used to attacking safe returns.  But if you attacked his return, he was less comfortable until recently.

So if I had to guess, BRS, your problems have far less to do with the absolute quality of your serves but your understanding of how they fit into your game.  You can serve *anything* as long as you know that it is not going to be crushed at your playing level and that you know how to attack the typical returns to gain an advantage in the point.  Your coach is likely pushing you to develop serves that will last you throughout your career, and that is best.  But in all honesty, if you have a decent third ball attack and you know the kinds of balls you like to attack, your serve just has to produce those kinds of balls as typical returns.  It doesn't have to confuse the opponent or win the point outright.

I was one of the relatively lucky players who figured out a long time ago that I could not move/recover well enough to attack behind a pendulum serve so I developed a backhand pendulum serve.  Over time, I made it better and better.  I later developed forehand serves largely to round out my understanding of the game.  I remember the first time I worked with my coach on third ball attack and trying to feel impressive, I tried to attack with my forehand.  And after seeing my backhand attack, my coach asked me what he felt my best shot was.  I said my backhand attack.  And he said, serve to the backhand, get a ball back to the backhand, then attack!  Nowadays, most people avoid the forehand by default, so I don't have to work for my attacks, but I have worked on my forehand attack long enough that it is no longer chopped liver. But I serve backhand largely because after I serve, I am in position to play my best shots against my favorite spin  (topspin backhand, backhand smash, hooking forehand, down the line forehand)

Nowadays, most of my serves are relatively (to me at least) light backspin but I adapt to my opponent. IMO, just learn how to serve straight backspin, no spin, then regular pendulum backspin and topspin, then reverse pendulum backspin and topspin (not the SERVES but the SPINS - for example, a typical backhand pendulum serve is a reverse serve as is a tomahawk and a reverse tomahawk is a pendulum serve) and then figure out how to place them to positions on the table that get you the kinds of balls you like to attack.  Make sure the balls are low to the net so they are not easy to attack (usually double bounce short).    The reason you have all the spins is that they all require you to produce different racket angles to return them and you never know which of the racket angles that your opponent has not practiced returning tight on some side of the table.  A different philosophy is to avoid the tactical nonsense and just get your main serve spin and spin variation so good that ready or not, you deal it out and let the opponent suffer with the spin level and the variation/deception.  

Once you have the serves, figure out how much spin you are comfortable attacking behind.  This is critical and is best done through practice.  I have played lots of players, even 2200 players, who serve me this ridiculously spinny ball and when I just chop it and pop it up, it is so loaded that they loop it into the net.  IT usually means that they haven't figured out how to touch/overpower their ball when it comes back loaded.  There are some players as well who serve sidespin and never adjust when the ball breaks on the return.

Finally, when practicing attacking behind your serve, you need the returner to give you both backspin and topspin returns so that you don't get locked into attacking one kind of ball.  It's a common problem.  I had quite a few matches in my U1800 days when I would play someone and I would push to him and get killed, but immediately I started running over to use my backhand to topspin the ball, even a weak topspin return would win the point outright.

But to cut a long story short, the most important part of modern serving is what you do behind your serve.  If I had to guess, your serves are probably more than good enough for what you do already.  IT's really the third ball attack that needs work/practice.

The thing is that getting a passive attackable return should be seen as a victory.  A popup or push into the net is icing on the cake.


Edited by NextLevel - 05/15/2015 at 8:45pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
shay2be View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 04/20/2011
Location: usa
Status: Offline
Points: 750
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shay2be Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2015 at 10:01pm
Haha... alright I am 99% sure I am the 17 year old NextLevel is talking about...
Here's what I learned and noticed compared to other people of all levels...
Serves.... I played with a no spin serve till about 1700, then I got a underspin serve and now, I still primarily use an underspin serve...
The reason why it has worked for me is that I use the underspin serve, and not anything else because people are just too comfortable attacking topspin and even sidespin and as like NL said, I am most likely going to get a push... 
Thus, I got pretty good at looping push...
On the other hand, when I play lower level players, I have to work much harder and make sure I loop every ball while others may simply serve them off the table...
Yes, my serves are weak, but they certainly made me stronger in the long run...
Pushing... i sucked at pushing and still my pushing sucks... so what is the solution to this solution???
Don't push... or intentionally push long and get ready to counter! 
Timo Boll ZLC
Xiom Vega Japan
Tenergy 80 - FX
Rating: 2065
Back to Top
JacekGM View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/17/2013
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2356
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2015 at 1:33am
Simon_ , my guess would be that at 32 you belong to the younger minority at this forum, so don't worry about age-related disabilities, yet...

Edited by JacekGM - 05/16/2015 at 1:34am
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
Back to Top
LUCKYLOOP View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/27/2013
Location: Pongville USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2800
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2015 at 2:48am

Here is a website for beginners and developing players, especially older newbies. It has tips, videos and links:

website

You can even watch a 58 shot topspin rally by a couple of over 60 active players.
Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max
Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX
HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX
Back to Top
Tt Gold View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/22/2014
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1302
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2015 at 6:57am
I think your equipment is not perfect for you if you want to make the most progress possible you should defenitly switch to slower equipment maybe get an Aleppo but there's defenitly no need for tenegy
Back to Top
diedona View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 07/13/2014
Location: Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diedona Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2015 at 11:42am
Hey Simon, welcome aboard!

1) It depends on the player. There will be a lot of jerks around there, as there are nice people. If you can, watch a game that you feel you can play and ask the player. It's like dating, i think :P

2) If you can, improving fitness and body in general might help your game endurance, but i don't think it's mandatory. Are you able to stand and make the strokes, block, serve, ocasionaly move around? Of course, if you want to go far away from the table in a loop x loop, like pro players, you might need more speed, endurance, strength... It's a matter of what you want x what you can x what you need.

3) If your coach told so, who am i to disagree? :) Just a question... Have you played with an all-wood blade before? TB Spirit has arylate-carbon on it. I think T80 is good to begin with, at least juding from it's attributes. T64 is fast, wouldn't it be strange for your backhand to get used to? That's the only question on my mind.

4) As NL said, no. But it might be a tool in your games, it's like question 2.

5) It depends! haha sorry, can't really answer that. Everyone is different, your potential is virtually unlimited, but as others said, dont setup for being a pro, olympic or whatever, it's just pressure that might ruin the fun. Aim to get a nice position on the local competition first :)

6 - 7) It depends! On you, on your coach, on your adjustments, on your experience...

8) Nothing to worry about. My first coach beat me with his left hand (right handed) and with short pimples (he's an inverted offensive), playing penhold (he plays classic grip).

All in all, just go playing for the fun! Wether trainning, playing, mixing... Just don't forget to have fun.
Xiom Aria - ST
Xiom Vega Europe 2mm (bh & fh)
Back to Top
wilkinru View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/28/2015
Location: Las Vegas
Status: Offline
Points: 604
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2015 at 3:27pm
Sounds like you need to have some fun.

Get some matches in (and against lesser skilled ones too).

Be being coach starved - I tend to end up playing lots of matches. However you seem to be on the flip side of it. I may need some correction in my stokes, but you may need the drama of a 14-16 game where you lose to a net-edge!

Go play some people! Have some fun and even experiment a little while doing so.


Back to Top
cole_ely View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6895
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2015 at 11:47am
You're probably better off as a 32 year old beginner than you would be as 32 year old basement champion who has played a ton but in the wrong form.  You don't have to break bad habits.  The flip side of that is you won't have the soft hands and table time of an experienced player.  Overall it's a wash really.
Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Back to Top
cole_ely View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6895
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2015 at 11:48am
Oh, and your racket is not too slow, and you really don't pick up bad habits from having a racket too slow.  You pick up bad habits from having a racket too fast, which your setup is.  

Under coaching though, it's probably reasonable.  I know some coaches believe in starting on one blade that you will use for life, more or less.


Edited by cole_ely - 05/19/2015 at 11:49am
Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 2.154 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2024 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.