Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Reflections on Grip, Spin and Playing Surfaces
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Reflections on Grip, Spin and Playing Surfaces

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Online
Points: 14842
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Reflections on Grip, Spin and Playing Surfaces
    Posted: 06/21/2015 at 12:14am
After much reflection, I have concluded recently that my rally strokes and serves are about where they should be even though they could clearly be better, and my major areas for improvement are reading and manipulating spin, especially short/over the table balls.  So I would like to share some of the recent results of my reflection that may help some of you who find spin and the existence of so many playing surfaces complicated.  The article should probably have a million diagrams but that is for a later time.

In addition, there is often a negative reaction  to pips players, mostly by inverted table tennis players who learn in environments dominated by inverted players.  I would like to explain why this occurs and give the inverted players who feel this way some intellectual and practical tools for dealing with these issues.

Many of these thoughts are still growing and imperfect, and I would appreciate any corrections or criticisms.

Here are the conclusions, which I will discuss in more detail in the ensuing paragraphs.  They may seem mostly like common sense, and to some they may be, but it took me some reading and four years of playing to get to them. 

1.  Grip and racket head speed are what produce spin or stop spin.
2.  Grip has two components, the surface component and the sponge/mechanical component.
3.  The grippier the surface, the greater its ability to stop and impart spin based on its own direction.
4.  Rather than confuse yourself thinking about the different surfaces, think in terms of the amount of grip the surface of your opponent has.
5.  Ultimately, given the time scales at which TT will play, intellectual understanding is no substitute for practicing against these surfaces.
6.  The best practices are ones where these surfaces are used in conjunction with whatever surfaces you typically play against so that the contrast in strokes forces the brain to read, plan and execute based on the ball read.

1.  Grip and racket head speed are what produce spin or stop spin.

The speed at which the racket is moving and the grippiness of the rubber are what impart spin onto the ball.  The Faster the racket is moving as it grips the ball, the more spin is imparted given the same kind of contact.  Grip is simply friction - when a surface is grippy/tacky, it slows down the ball rotation and if the racket is moving fast enough and the surface is grippy enough, reverses it.  This is what happens with inverted rubbers and what allows an inverted player to return a topspin with a countertopspin/topspin block with relative ease ease.  More on that in point 3.

2.  Grip has two components, the surface component and the sponge component.

The surface component of grip is often the easiest to consider and is derived from any things, including the friction/grippiness of the surface and the elasticity of the rubber surface.  While I don't want to get too detailed, the sponge/mechanical component is based on the idea that if the ball is allowed to sink into sponge and distort the rubber more (vs. a wood surface which would not allow for much penetration), the ball can be exposed to more pips per surface area and this allows the ball to be gripped better than if there was no sponge where all the stress would be left to the topsheet to handle. 

3.  The grippier the surface, the greater its ability to stop and impart spin based on its own direction.

The over-generalized hierarchy of rubber grip is something like this.

inverted/pips-in (always with sponge) > short pips-out with sponge > medium pips-out with sponge
> short pips-out OX > medium pips-out OX > long pips-out with sponge <=> anti-spin > long pips-out OX > frictionless long pips > frictionless anti

The way to think about it is this - let's say your opponent topspins the ball to you and you want to return the ball with heavy topspin the ball back to the person.  Well, you have to stop the ball from rotating in the direction towards you and send it back rotating with topspin towards your opponent.  With inverted rubber, this is generally possible, as inverted rubbers have sufficient surface grip to stop the ball from spinning in any direction and invert the direction within reasonable spin levels produced by most people.  The optimal contact points on the ball to stop the spin and the racket head speed to make it go back to the opponent as topspin are critical, but most inverted rubbers have the ability to do this.  The same with heavy backspin - inverted rubbers are generally able to stop the spin and have the spin go back to the opponent as backspin.

When we get short pips rubbers, this begins to change, but not so much.  Short pips rubbers cannot stop and reverse with heavy topspin the highest amounts of topspin.  Depending on how you play, this may be a good or a bad thing.  Very rarely, the levels of topspin are so heavy that the ball sometimes slips off and goes back as light backspin.  On other occasions, the balls are stopped and reversed with topspin, but with less topspin than the same stroke would produce with inverted.  The lesser topspin or light backspin are both what some people refer to as dead balls.

However, when a ball doesn't have much spin, short pips are able to impart significant spin on the ball.  Also, short pips can add significant spin in the same direction as the ball is already rotating (hence, they can chop back heavy topspin into backspin, loop heavy backspin into topspin and are good for continuing/adding sidespin to serves, where most inverted returners tend to go against the spin.

As we go lower and lower on the hierarchy, the lower rubber grip reduces ability of the rubber to stop and invert the spin.  Lets's look quickly at long pips - those surfaces tend to have less friction so they are almost completely unable to stop spin so they almost always continue the spin, no matter what ball comes in once it is spinning decently - hence heavy topspin will be returned as either light or heavy backspin, depending on the stroke from the player, and heavy backspin will be returned as either light or heavy topspin.

If the behavior of long pips is confusing, or you just need more clarity on what it means to stop (or go against) vs. continue (or add to) the spin, this article by Greg Letts is very helpful and is an online classic for TT players who need to intellectually understand long pips.


4.  Rather than confuse yourself thinking about the different surfaces, think in terms of the amount of grip the surface of your opponent has.

This is one of the main points of this article.  Too often, the question is how to play against short pips vs. medium pips vs. long pips vs. anti-spin, when the real issue is whether the surface has the ability to stop/impart spin or not.  While there are small nuances of sponge that affect relying mostly on surface grip (especially when dealing with people who use well worn inverted rubbers as well as some cases of anti-spin and long pips), if you know how grippy your opponent's equipment is, then you largely have all you need to know about the rubber.  You can then have an idea of how much he can put on his serves with his wrist action if anything, and whether your spins will be inverted (behave the same way that they do vs. inverted rubbers) or reversed (behave as they do vs. long pips or lower friction rubbers).  

Over time, in order to read spin better, you will have to realize that even inverted players may or may not be utilizing the grippy potentials of their rubber.  In the end, you learn to play the ball while thinking about how the amount of grip the surface you are playing against impacts the stroke.

5.   Ultimately, given the time scales at which TT will play, intellectual understanding is no substitute for practicing against these surfaces.

All of this is theory, and TT is a very fast game - you need to hit with players who use various kinds of equipment with different levels of grip to get used to the idea that a surface with less grip can produce a different result from the one you are used to playing against.  Our minds simply tend to use certain visual cues to read spin and many of these are tied to the stroke the player is playing against us.  In order to force the mind to look for more clues, we need to diversify the situations we expose our mind to in order to stop it from looking just at the stroke and to force it to account for the nature of the surface being used, which will often sound a little different from inverted at the very least.  

One of the benefits of using an inverted/pips-in surface is that it is the surface that allows you to generate the most spin once you develop the timing and the strokes to use inverted surfaces optimally.   Therefore, you can just about add or reduce spin to any ball that comes from another surface that can't produce spin, the only caveat being that you need to read the spin on the ball somewhat accurately to learn how to handle the ball.  But given the stabilizing nature of spin, you don't need to be 100% accurate in your read - you just need to be accurate enough to know how to contact the ball and generate enough spin to keep the ball under control and on the table.  Inverted also allows you to play at different distances so you can play further from the table to give yourself more time to respond to the faster balls, or closer to the table to pick up the slower balls.

Since spin enables you to control the ball more easily and stabilize the flight using the Magnus Effect, inverted rubbers make it easy to keep the ball on the table with spin strokes, both slow and powerful.  Along with ITTF regulations that limit the amount of grip one can design into pips-out rubbers, this advantage of pips-in rubbers over pips-out rubbers has made the exclusive use of pips-out almost non-existent at the top level in the modern game today.

The critical thing is that one needs to learn how to generate topspin with one's stroke.  Players who complain a lot about pips tend to be players who have never practiced much against them or who do not have strokes in their arsenal that can add spin to spinless balls.  Once you have both kinds of strokes and play against surfaces with different levels of grip, you will complain about pips much less.

6.  The best practices are ones where these surfaces are used in conjunction with whatever surfaces you typically play against so that the contrast in strokes forces the brain to read, plan and execute based on the ball read.

Ideally, your best practice player is a twiddler who uses diverse surfaces.  Or at least, spend 1 minute hitting against one surface/spin and one minute hitting against another surface/spin.  This will force your mind to look for cues other than the stroke to figure out what is on the ball.  If you simply practice against long pips exclusively, your mind will have a stroke, but will not be using the stroke based on reading the ball.   While this might help to learn a stroke, it will not help retain the information for actual match play, which is when it is most critical.

This is still a work in progress, but I would appreciate comments and thoughts from everyone.  Thank you a million if you read this far. 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
BRS View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 05/08/2013
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1587
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/21/2015 at 2:51pm
Another interesting read, NL. I never thought about pips this way. One of the things that bothers me the most vs. 0X is the change of pace. They can send the ball back so slow and soft, when an inverted player could not.
Back to Top
BRS View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 05/08/2013
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1587
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/21/2015 at 2:55pm
And what do you do with a dead ball that is low over the table? Can't push it, or it will pop up. Tough to topspin with any pace, cause it's low. But if you topspin soft they will hit your sorry topspin viciously. You can pattycake it back, but that is awful.
Back to Top
vvk1 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/14/2009
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1925
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/21/2015 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

And what do you do with a dead ball that is low over the table? Can't push it, or it will pop up. Tough to topspin with any pace, cause it's low. But if you topspin soft they will hit your sorry topspin viciously. You can pattycake it back, but that is awful.


Long and low deadballs are quite attackable with topspin with practice. As to short dead serves, watch this starting from 2.45 mark.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoKAdtfpEVA

The key thing is get to the ball and not to go under it.

Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Online
Points: 14842
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/21/2015 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

And what do you do with a dead ball that is low over the table? Can't push it, or it will pop up. Tough to topspin with any pace, cause it's low. But if you topspin soft they will hit your sorry topspin viciously. You can pattycake it back, but that is awful.


Thanks for the kind words, BRS.

You can push or flick a short no-spin ball - you just don't have any spin to help you but you can generate some if you topspin-flick. When you push, you can't go beneath the ball as it will pop up, but using a more closed angle works as does going round the side.  You can also bump it softly or flick it softly and hope for the best.  if you have the control and awareness, you try to put it where your opponent will not attack it as easily (weaker side, elbow) and if you miss, it was probably just a good shot anyway.

OX pips are not slow by themselves but are mounted on slow blades and don't generate spin to control their speed or react to spin to and keep the ball's energy with elasticity.  The lack of sponge also doesn't allow for spin sensitivity in that things bottom out quicklier, but this can depending on the player be a bad thing as sponge can have a cushioning effect against heavy spin.  The lack of reaction to spin is the source of most slowness. But it comes at the cost of making it harder to manipulate heavy levels of spins with pure athleticism.


Edited by NextLevel - 06/22/2015 at 5:23pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
BH-Man View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5042
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2015 at 12:24pm
Don't forget those who are GREAT at mastering hand pressure at impact, regardless of the surface, these players can REALLY slow it down or ricochet it like crazy.
Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc
Back to Top
bes View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 04/26/2014
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 201
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2015 at 4:03pm
I think this is a clever way to think about different surfaces.  Might really help some folks understand them.  I totally agree that "knowing/understanding theory" and "comfortable playing against" are very differnent things and the second ONLY comes with significant experience and practice.

bes
Back to Top
roundrobin View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/02/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4708
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2015 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

And what do you do with a dead ball that is low over the table? Can't push it, or it will pop up. Tough to topspin with any pace, cause it's low. But if you topspin soft they will hit your sorry topspin viciously. You can pattycake it back, but that is awful.

If you can't prevent your return to be attacked, your last resort is to always place it deep right to the center end point of the table (just push it, bump it or roll it quickly).  You will be in excellent position to block or counterattack the next shot as your opponent won't have any good angle to work with.


Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986.
Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association.
My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red

Back to Top
roundrobin View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/02/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4708
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2015 at 4:40pm
Nice analysis NL.  Regarding No. 3, the amount of grip on your own rubber also dictates the racket speed you must be able to produce when trying to reverse/overpower oncoming ball's existing spin.  This minimum racket speed is also the reason why it's very difficult to slow down a very spinny ball with grippy inverted rubbers.  




Edited by roundrobin - 06/22/2015 at 5:38pm
Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986.
Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association.
My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red

Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Online
Points: 14842
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2015 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Nice analysis NL.  Regarding No. 3, the amount of grip on your own rubber also dictates the racket speed you must be able to produce when trying to reverve/overpower oncoming ball's existing spin.  This minimum racket speed is also the reason why it's very difficult to slow down a very spinny ball with grippy inverted rubbers.  



Thanks for the insight, roundrobin.  I think this is probably obscured by the fact that inverted players need and use lots of racket angles and contact points in addition to racket head speed to do their manipulation, while less grippy surface players tend to have fewer racket angles and relatively smaller swings on heavy spin balls because they don't need as much speed.


Edited by NextLevel - 06/22/2015 at 4:56pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
smackman View Drop Down
Assistant Moderator
Assistant Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 07/20/2009
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 3264
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2015 at 6:51pm
all players will get it wrong in all games, over looping, under looping, not picking the spin 100% just part of table tennis and learning in games and after games
 overall a good read but I started reading you were happy but could do better so thought it was going to be all about you

 and are all your favourite coaches from Australia, Brett Clarke, William Henzelland Greg Letts and why do you think those players/coaches/bloggers and others like them and Alois Rosario and Jeff Plum from pingskills are so good at convaying information
Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website
Back to Top
TTFrenzy View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/16/2012
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 369
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTFrenzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2015 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

And what do you do with a dead ball that is low over the table? Can't push it, or it will pop up. Tough to topspin with any pace, cause it's low. But if you topspin soft they will hit your sorry topspin viciously. You can pattycake it back, but that is awful.

its a matter of spin perception,correct reading/guessing of opponent's serve and fast reaction with your feet to take good position over the table. if you are not good at receiving dead balls like that then the safest way is to push long and fast. there is no need for the push to be spinny but fast paced and land near the endline, then you just wait and couterloop or block over the table. now if your opponents is really fast then i guess you are f**** anyway, cause he is faster than you and he attacks no matter the serve you make or he makes.

Dead ball serves are not a problem of their own, its the 3rd/4th ball scenario that can give headache to a player, especially when his style cannot out play his opponent.

timo boll for example most of the times falls for ma lin's dead serves.

ma long yan an fang bo and zhang jike know ma lin so well that they get really fast to the ball and flick it no matter low it is so his dead serve doesnt work against them. there are many factors that play huge role on the outcome

hope I helped!
my TT blog!



Join & follow my TT blog ! Mental and Physi
Back to Top
wanhao View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/14/2014
Location: south east asia
Status: Offline
Points: 122
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wanhao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2015 at 8:33pm
So much theories..spend more time practising in the correct way will help one improve..
Back to Top
Argothman View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 12/20/2013
Location: The stars
Status: Offline
Points: 551
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argothman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2015 at 9:57pm
I disagree. Practice without purpose will not lead to improvement - the path to success begins before the first step is taken.


Edited by Argothman - 06/23/2015 at 9:58pm
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.328 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2024 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.