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Why do the Chinese top players use H3??? |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Wa. Say it isn't so. Not only have the pros used better equipment than the rest of us, they've speed glued, boosted, tuned, and otherwise souped up already ridiculously souped up rubbers for decades? I can't believe that. I don't want to believe that. And this is nothing new? You wonder: how could the pros have possibly played this decades long souped up, turbocharged, formula one speedster of a sport with equipment inaccessible to mere mortals without some whistleblower reporting this sort of thing to the ITTF? Something ought to be done. Before it's too late. Hmm. Maybe it is already too late, and it has probably been too late for decades.
Edited by berndt_mann - 06/29/2015 at 5:53pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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unstopabl3
Silver Member Joined: 06/16/2011 Status: Offline Points: 685 |
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Maybe you should tell us all these things then to end the mystery :P |
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Clarence247
Silver Member Joined: 02/11/2014 Location: Malta Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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The H3 Provincial and National ARE a lot better... and we ALL have access to the better version through Nittaku H3 Pro.... but people seem to want better at the price of H3 commercial... Nittaku select the highest quality, most dynamic sheets orange sponge has to offer...boosted properly with 2 layers of Falco Long - it's a medium soft (YES medium soft as Adidas P7) sheet of dynamic rubber that keeps giving the harder you hit without loss of control..... |
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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
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seguso
Gold Member Joined: 03/24/2010 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 1619 |
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Having tried a boosted national h3 blue sponge, I believe the correct answer is: nothing beats that rubber for fh. But do not make the mistake to think it is something similar to H3 neo commercial. It is much softer, and more reactive with more catapult. It is much more similar to m1 turbo than to h3 neo commercial. even speed-glued h3 commercial is much harder and slower. And yes, the Chinese boost to the extreme. Of course they do. Just look at their topsheets. Their rubbers are unusable otherwise. (and even so, they never become faster than t05 anyway).
Edited by seguso - 06/30/2015 at 4:48am |
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pg5x - mxd fh & bh - 2015 video
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BaiMile
Member Joined: 10/10/2011 Location: Sofia, Bulgaria Status: Offline Points: 93 |
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Hello Guys,
I have played with Tenergy, ESN rubberrs, then with chinese rubbers, Hurricane 3, Jappanes rubber from Tibhar (Nianmor), YinHe rubbers, lately with Evolution MX-P, so I thing You are mistaken with "fast" and "Jumpy (springy)" rubber. Hurricane 3, even Neo version is not slow rubber. If you moove like hell (like chinese do) you will find ESN and Tenergy rubbers slower. They are faster only when you hit the ball without spin, becouse of the tack.
Edited by BaiMile - 06/30/2015 at 8:52am |
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MLfan
Super Member Joined: 04/23/2015 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 486 |
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Contrary to popular belief, you cannot boost a chinese rubber "to the extreme." Doing that will actually make the topsheet lose its tackiness, and the rubber becomes unstable. You can boost it for sure, but overboosting is definitely possible. CNT members usually play with 40 degree hardness (because only they can handle that hardness), and top-tier players like Ma Long and Zhang Jike use 41 degrees. I'll repeat what I said: chinese players insist on using hurricane because the arc produced is harder to return when compared to arcs produced by euro/jap tensor rubbers. More spin can also be generated from hurricane.
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ahsq
Silver Member Joined: 04/07/2015 Location: The flushing Y Status: Offline Points: 527 |
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Caz the H3 they use is the fricking Nat version. That piece of sheet of rubber costs $120+.
Tell them to use the $15 commercial H3, they will tell you to **** off.
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FS:
Xiom Vega Pro ST 85 grams $80 shipped Donic Waldner Senso Carbo JO shaped ST $40 shipped |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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The fricking Nat version costs $120+ per sheet? Holy Zhuang Ze Dong. I sure hope the members of the Chinese National Team don't have to pay for their rubbers themselves.
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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ahsq
Silver Member Joined: 04/07/2015 Location: The flushing Y Status: Offline Points: 527 |
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they are given a set amount of rubbers per quarter by da governor err government. lol some CNT members sell brand new and/or old ones. Im not saying who.
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FS:
Xiom Vega Pro ST 85 grams $80 shipped Donic Waldner Senso Carbo JO shaped ST $40 shipped |
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tack_and_grip
Member Joined: 05/19/2014 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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+1 Tacky rubber can produce higher spin/speed ratio given proper technique
Edited by tack_and_grip - 07/01/2015 at 12:49am |
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MLfan
Super Member Joined: 04/23/2015 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 486 |
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the CNT members are all given a certain number of rubbers each month. If you're a main player, eg. Fan Zhendong, you get 40 national hurricanes a month to choose from. Yes, they can tell the difference of quality among NATIONAL hurricanes.
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ahsq
Silver Member Joined: 04/07/2015 Location: The flushing Y Status: Offline Points: 527 |
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envy.
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FS:
Xiom Vega Pro ST 85 grams $80 shipped Donic Waldner Senso Carbo JO shaped ST $40 shipped |
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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The corollary to this question does ANY european/japanese or korean (who did not begin training in China/Taiwan or Hong Kong) use H3 national at the highest level? If not (and I doubt it) then one can be pretty sure that:
1. H3 national is not as great as some of you believe 2. It has to do with how one begins their career not the rubber I do not believe for a second that european players could not get the best H3 available if it helped their game.
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MLfan
Super Member Joined: 04/23/2015 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 486 |
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Vanjr, the europeans ARE UNABLE to get the best H3 available. People like Feng Tianwei can only get provincial hurricane...you need to understand how the system works lol. The tenergy that we can buy, is also not the ones that the japanese team/chinese team use. The japanese team gets the best tenergies, and the Chinese team gets the second-best tenergies. The public then gets the rest.
most pros do not switch to hurricane if they started out using euro/jap rubbers because the technique change is too drastic.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I love all these stories. They make it sound like having the best Hurricane makes you a better player.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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bbkon
Premier Member Joined: 04/19/2005 Location: Afghanistan Status: Offline Points: 7260 |
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You touch the sponge of a natversion and the texture is diferent |
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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I cannot believe that DHS would not sell top grade H3 to any top players or clubs so that they could increase their market share. Think how much more crappy commercial H3 they could sell if all the top players used H3? I am sure they could amp up production. I would agree with you that I may not get the top stuff. But DHS is as capitalist as any other big corporation out there. They are there to make money (just want it in RMB I guess:)
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vvk1
Gold Member Joined: 11/14/2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1925 |
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Many people equate "best" with "most expensive". That's basically it. |
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kurokami
Gold Member Joined: 11/08/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1277 |
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you don't understand china lol. anything involving govt control will have an inordinate amount of regulation for IP and domestic trade secrets, incl. national h3. i didn't know until recently speaking to native chinese that though it's much more lax now, they're restricted from moving their primary residence without a permit change LOL. i wonder what they did for jobs if they couldn't find one local. it seems ridiculous to us, but that's an example of controls and authority chn govt has. in any case, you can wait for CNT to change to another rubber set. then they'll start selling what they're using now.
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Viscaria
H3N/T05 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65345&KW=&title=feedback-kurokami |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I am sure these things are true. I am basing my opinion on the level that I have seen some people play -- such as former province team members who are still pretty good but not necessarily real serious anymore. These are people who certainly would not have access to the "best top secret" H3 people here talk about (which I assume people here are correct when they say it is a real thing). This is because they were never good enough in China to get the good stuff (although they are really good by US standards) and because of course they now live in the US. Most people trained and accustomed to Japanese and European rubbers would find the Hurricane can get here pretty unplayable (I know I do but I am not alone) and yet some of these very well trained Chinese guys (one person I have specifically in mind) with absolutely perfect modern Chinese technique love the stuff. This guy (former Fujian province junior team, now a student at the university where I teach, still around 2400 although he rarely plays) also absolutely hated Tenergy when I gave him a sheet. It was almost impossible for him to keep his ridiculously powerful forehand on the table. For awhile we were playing quite a bit. His opinion was that it was what you get used to when you start. My opinion is also based on what happened when a top player here in the US on the advice of a Chinese coach briefly attempted to switch to Hurricane. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Yeah. Some people do equate it with what the CNT do/use. Just because the World Champ is using it, it has to be the best. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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42andbackpains
Silver Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 623 |
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When i first went to China in my late teens and through my early twenties. Which is about 20 plus years ago, native chinese needed special passes to move from province to province. Many of times the passes were attained through bribes and who you know. While us tourist could get through as long as we have our approved travel visas. China was very restrictive to there residents, but today most of the time people can move freely. Like any country, they have there issues with corruption and bribery.
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Mind is willing, but the back goes out too often :P
OSP Ultimate II 88 grams FH Dianchi D w/ Secret Sauce BH Butterfly T05 Red USATT rating keeps going down |
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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The inference is that the world champion would himself try to find the best equipment, and being a professional player, would have every incentive to get the biggest advantage he could on his competitors. Thus, whatever is used by the best players, is likely the best (for them). However, the important thing to remember is that they play a certain way to maximize their effectiveness according to their equipment. The extent that you play like a pro player is the extent that their equipment is appropriate for you.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Thanks, Argothman. I get the logic. Unfortunately, being a CNT wannabe doesn't make you play like a CNT player. But I guess there are worse things on which to waste your time and money.
Moreover, there is a conservatism built into professional sports equipment at the highest level in all sports. Innovations that help play tend to comefrom the lower ranks more often than not and take years to get to the higher levels. Of course, figuring out which innovation will get there is next to impossible. But that also applies to the player who made it there. Copying him is risky if you don't ha r his ability. I love this sport because playing at a fairly high level doesn't require you to play exactly like a top player. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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I agree. While away from the table I enjoy obsessing over professional players' equipment and technique, but when I actually play and train I don't copy them, I play my own style and I practice in a normal way. I think being able to separate your TT obsession from your TT training is important if you want to improve and play well, no amount of copying will make you like the pros.
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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It's not that sponsored players get the best tenergy, they usually get their choice of weight of each rubber.All tenergy is the same (there's no pro version), just the weight is different per sheet just like blades are. Heavier rubbers are a little harder.
Edited by Tk5 - 07/12/2015 at 5:22am |
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MLfan
Super Member Joined: 04/23/2015 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 486 |
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there is a pro version of Tenergy. it even has a different laser marking on the sponge.
DHS already has a HUGE market in China. In fact, 95% (i swear to god) of chinese AMATEUR players play Hurricane and 99% of pro players in China play hurricane. The "national" versions are the rubbers that are cut closest to the center of the big sheet of rubber made in the factories. But the "national" versions are only what the average players in the CNT use. What people like Ma Long use are custom made hurricanes, which are rubbers made specifically to what the player wants. For eg, Liu Shiwen's hurricane is a little different from Ding Ning's. Liu's hurricane is more elastic, while Ding's is slightly tackier. It's all based on the style (this info I got from an inside source here in China). But yes, the world champ IS using the best quality hurricane. DHS won't give other players the top-notch hurricanes because they want chinese players to win lol...shouldn't this be obvious haha
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2338 |
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Evidence? |
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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MLfan
Super Member Joined: 04/23/2015 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 486 |
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of what?
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