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Critique form - FH loop |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Again, this is your opinion and by no means an established fact. The science behind rotational power and momentum is very complicated and that's why even the most highly respected golf coaches in the world cannot seem to come to any definite conclusion. Bubba Watson, who was the longest hitter on the 2014 PGA golf tour at about 320 yards a drive, and he would not subscribe to your theory of restricted hip turn to generate power: Most of this is all over my head and I don't want to keep debating this with you because I already feel bad about hijacking the guys thread. This topic pales in comparison to more important things like timing, a relaxed arm, proper arm movement, etc. anyways.
Edited by Ringer84 - 07/05/2015 at 11:03pm |
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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TTHamme
Beginner Joined: 07/03/2015 Location: Hamme Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Conclusion:
the video posted doesn't really address the problems I feel when spinning with FH. I will try filiming a practice game against a better player to show what I mean Things learnt: -> relax arm more (it's possible I kinda froze because of the camera but certainly not to a large extent) -> get elbow a bit further away from body -> stretch arm more prior to hitting the ball -> don't hop when playing the shot When I think about it this last thing could be my main problem. Bodyweight goes up (and back) instead of forward. This is why when spinning in combination with "fast" (relative of course) movement my right leg is "burning" while my left isn't. Anyway: thank you very much for this detailed information! It's nice to talk with other people about table tennis in such depth. @Ringer84: You didn't hijack this thread . All you did was discuss one of the suggestions already stated. Oh, I just noticed I posted this in the wrong subsection of the forum. Can a mod move the thread please?
Edited by TTHamme - 07/06/2015 at 9:52am |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Don't know the quality of the robot you are using but reducing the spin (and speed, depending on the robot) would have helped as well - it's hard to tell the quality of the spin contact when looping heavy topspin.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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(Baal) An offensive oriented player just needs to hit more shots in a row than the next guy.
So for that matter does a defensively oriented player. This, for reasons too numerous to mention, is not as attractive an option as it once was.
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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SmackDAT
Platinum Member Joined: 01/01/2012 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 2231 |
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Seriously? You look younger than 29
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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Are you defining what it means to win a point? Or do you really think that is what table tennis is, who can hit the most shots in a row? Maybe true at the OPs level but at the higher levels if that is your mindset you won't be hitting more shots in a row than too many players.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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For Christ's sake, why focus on a sentence apart from the whole post?
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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And that is how you stay at 1800 forever or whatever the OPs level is. That fh is 1850 tops. I sense the OP wants to improve and become as good as he can get. If you think he can reach his maximum potential with that fh you are surely mistaken. You need to always be looking to make adjustments, always tinkering with your shots to make them better. I don't care if you are number one in the world. I guarantee Ma Long isn't going to training everyday thinking "hmm my fh is good enough, I'll just keep it the same and not make any changes". I don't mean to be bashing other peoples advice. I think a lot of good thoughts have out on this thread and many people have given the OP solid advice for improving his fh. However, I don't want bad advice to outweigh the good. The quote highlighted in this post and my last post goes against everything I have learned as a player.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Again, criticizing someone without reading the whole post. In fact, fatt was trying to be a good kind coach, something all of us could learn from, including the person who didn't read fatt's full post carefully and see that he made changes!
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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mhnh007
Platinum Member Joined: 11/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Are you the same guy who told Bruce Lee to shorten his punch to half inch .
Edited by mhnh007 - 07/07/2015 at 3:33pm |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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No I read it. He suggested him adding other shots to his game and keeping that shot in the video the same just with different variations. I'm not criticizing anyone. Am I not allowed to point out things I disagree with?
Edited by Tk5 - 07/07/2015 at 3:36pm |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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Umm why not. It stuck out to me and I wanted the poster to elaborate on what he meant by it.
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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Thanks for the clarification. I agree improvements should be a step by step process. It is definitely something to build off of as a foundation.
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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And Nextlevel I like what you said about being a "good kind coach", it certainly opens up future discussion. Maybe that is not my style. In my experience the good coaches that actually care about you just focus on what you do poorly. They are not patting you on the back or complimenting you. Of course when you are able to make the adjustments they are suggesting, they say good to let you know that you have done so successfully. The other day a German coach at the academy I train at told me my reverse serve and my fast serve down the line are ok. I took that as a huge compliment. Of course I am sure even for these coaches it depends on the player. If you are the type that needs gratification to keep you going maybe they do so.
Edited by Tk5 - 07/07/2015 at 4:02pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Sure but there is plenty of elaboration in the rest of his post. His view is that speed is more important than spin and that if you can hit a shot that your opponent cannot return, that is more important than hitting a spinny consistent shot given the distance from which the shot is being taken and the nature of the incoming ball. Therefore, he is not saying "rally to keep the ball on the table" - he is saying "hit a good shot so that it is unlikely to be returned". He also said that if the OP is playing further off the table, then he would like to see more spin. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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Well that wasn't made clear to me by his post. But speed is not more important than spin. Spin, placement, and variation all outweigh speed. There are so many 2300-2550 players that can rip that crap out of the ball. That doesn't make them elite or even competitive at the world level.
Edited by Tk5 - 07/07/2015 at 4:14pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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My biggest problem with many of these threads is how people post without showing their own technique. Maybe if you posted your own technique, then we could understand why you are being harsh. I really believe from personal experience that those who put themselves out to be criticized are brave. I also in the case of fatt, Baal, APW46 and a few others know the level of the critic so I can read their statement in that context. Sometimes, when we are too aggressive in engaging people who we have not gotten familiar with, we can drive away some of the good critics and players who want to contribute more. Or you may not encourage players to post their own video. So please be kind in general. If you want us to take your harsh comments, post yourself and welcome harsh comments so we can see that your rule is truly golden. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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I don't agree with that. I am a private person. I have no interests in putting videos out on the web. I don't think I was not being kind. I was hoping to help the individual and add to the forum. However, if you or anyone else really wants to see a video of my technique, you can send me a PM and I will gladly send you back an unlisted youtube video of myself training (given that you will keep the video and information private). I'm a decent player in the US my rating is just over 2300 and my highest rating is right under 2350, although I feel I am playing at a higher level now after my training. My goal is to be a top player in the US so I have a long ways to go in terms of improvement. I don't think you should have to post your name or video for you to be taken seriously. You should be evaluated by the content of your posts. Given we know who you are do you think you are in a position to be acting the way you do? A serious question because from my limited time on this forum it does seem like you think you are the resident expert. And btw the aggressive manner in which you have acted towards me makes me not want to contribute to this forum.
Edited by Tk5 - 07/07/2015 at 4:40pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I post a lot and play a lot in North America, and yes, the fact that people know who I am places checks and constraints on what I do - they know my level so they can ignore me when I am saying nonsense. At the very least, thanks for sharing your level so that people can evaluate your comments in that context because it helps. If you know the level and background of the poster, it helps you put comments in the right context. There is nothing wrong with being private other than that it places a bigger burden on you to treat other posters carefully since no one can call your bluff on anything you write and your criticism cannot be placed in proper context unless you provide accurate information about yourself otherwise. The main reason I post is that many of the people who post here tend to be people who picked up the game as adults and never had formal training as children. So many of them want to understand how they can improve their games despite not having had formal training, or despite having damaged knees etc. That's where I contribute my experiences having worked at this game as an adult and not having played any serious table tennis as a child. It's very different coming into this game as an adult vs. having had lots of training as a child. Very often, unless a high-level player has trained a competent adult, he tends to minimize the challenges that adults face in getting better. I personally do not find my aggression level any different from yours and if you want to criticize people who are making comments, go ahead. It just helps to have an idea of where you are coming from. My apologies for any discomfort caused. BTW, some people here would love to have an 1850 forehand. Just saying.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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Who do you think I criticized? I disagreed with a section of advice that two people gave and then explained why. Do you see that as criticism? People can have their own opinion. The point of these forums is to encourage debate and discussion in a respectful manner. I may have been opinionated but I don't think I have been disrespectful to anyone. And when I said he had an 1850 fh tops, it wasn't meant as criticism, or as a compliment. I said that because that's what I think.
Edited by Tk5 - 07/07/2015 at 6:33pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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In both cases, both people had extended posts that detailed their fuller thinking which placed those points in context. It seemed a bit weird to ignore that fuller thinking and to interpret specific points by taking them as standalone phrases, which is what it seemed you were doing. When one says a forehand is 1850 at best, it helps to know what level their forehand is or what level the forehands they have coached are (I am barely 2000, btw) . In clubs I play at, the people who make such statements range from perceptive state champs or successful coaches to 1600 players who have never successfully taught someone to loop before.
I think if you have dealt with 1300-level engineers who like to pretend that their supposed understanding of physics qualifies them to speak intelligently about TT technique they do not possess, you will understand where I am coming from. You are not one of them but it helps to be sure. But I am done playing Voltron. Baal will respond if he so chooses. Cheers.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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The first post that line stuck out to me so I commented on it. I didn't really know what he was trying to say so I asked for clarification too. After re-reading it and you paraphrasing it I totally disagree with what he is saying and I offered an explanation above.
The second post I didn't take out of context either. He told the OP to not change anything with his fh and keep it as his "home base" and to instead and different variations which is something I completely disagree with. The OP should change a lot of things with his fh. He then posted again and said that he meant to say that the OP should make improvements step by step. That makes sense to me.
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TTHamme
Beginner Joined: 07/03/2015 Location: Hamme Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Last Wednesday I had a really good training.
Played for 30 mins with a sparring partner practicing my loop from wide FH and middle table. Special attention was paid to more stretch of the elbow before contact. Now my shoulder and triceps are pretty sore. I guess I never really used them before in table tennis. One step at a time... First tournament in 2 weeks.
Edited by TTHamme - 07/10/2015 at 3:54am |
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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Indeed ! the charlatans are quickly spotted that way. |
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Oh, by the way, medical advice should be evaluated not by demonstrating it has worked on one's health or the health of those someone has treated. It should be evaluated based on what has been written.
Sorry, but that is patently ridiculous. People who feel strongly about dispensing advice should at least give evidence of their rating or success - maybe videotape goes too far but it is better than anything else. Someone asking for advice is putting themselves in the position of a patient and they should at least Know the doctor's qualification. It doesn't guarantee accurate diagnosis or treatment but it is far better than the alternatives, which include having players who have never taught others or themselves how to loop giving to all kinds of intelligent sounding advice that never gets to the heart of the matter. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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Your analogy of giving medical advice to posting on a critique thread of an online table tennis forum is "patently ridiculous". Sorry, I didn't know you have to post your table tennis rating before being allowed to state your opinion on this thread. But now I have, so hopefully all is forgiven.
Edited by Tk5 - 07/12/2015 at 5:01am |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I thought it looked pretty good! It's the classic European FH with the locked forearm. You probably trained quite well with it. You have pretty good weight transfer and hip rotation and pretty good footwork which leads to good movement and consistency. Now for more power, there are a few things you can add to your loop to spice it up.
Timing: Try to contact the ball a bit earlier and more in front of your body, especially against topspin. You can think of your racket being angled forward when you hit the ball (although it doesn't actually happen!). Wrist: You need to drop your wrist further in order to relax it more. This will allow you to generate more spin. Also, less slap hitting and a lot more brushing would also do wonders for your power. Loops loaded with spin are extremely difficult to deal with. Elbow snap: Basically relax and let your elbow straighten, then snap forward when you hit the ball. This will make your stroke more fluid and powerful. Use of your shoulder: This is a huge source of power, but albeit may lead to shoulder injuries without strength training. I learnt it from Zhang Jike who really abuses this source of power to the max (which is probably why he has this shoulder cuff injury now!). Basically during your backswing, you move your shoulder blade backwards (your elbow will be tucked near your right middle back, kinda like doing dumbbell rows) and let it explode forward during your swing. With this you can generate huge amounts of additional power without affecting your recovery time much.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Fine, I give up. I will just let you police the ridiculous posts. You break seamless balls so that's a high level right there ;). |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2338 |
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You guys do realise that the OP, having played Belgian 2/1 league, is minimum 2150 and more than likely >2250.
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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I also read that bit ...... did wonder if everyone else did. "In Belgium you have a "super" division followed by first and second league nationwide. I played second league for 10 years and first league for 1 year" The OP prob holds a decent C ranking or maybe higher which makes him a pretty handy player. Guessing there are a few match videos around for us to get a better idea of OP's play. Edited by ghostzen - 07/12/2015 at 6:04pm |
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