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Hardbat vs heavy topspin |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Posted: 07/08/2015 at 2:08pm |
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Hello,
When using a hardbat against heavy topspin what is the best strategy to use? I find if I try to counter loop it, it goes long. I can chop but it's quite hard to keep the chop down, usually sits up for an easy kill. Thanks in advance |
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Chop heavy topspin .. attack backspin .. Work on your chopping technique |
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Use a controlled block at the height of the bounce over the table. Your wrist must be super-relaxed to time it correctly. |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Assuming the heavy topspin is from an inverted rubber player .. which is the higher percentage return .. chop or block ? Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 07/08/2015 at 2:39pm |
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4951 |
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This all heavily depends on the skill level of each player.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4951 |
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all methods will work... practice, practice, practice.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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gnopgnipster
Silver Member Joined: 07/22/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 877 |
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Hardbat: Valor Champion/FH/BH-Valor Premier-OX
Regular:Valor Big Stick FH-Apollo II & BH-Globe 979 OX |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Against a high level player, it's much harder to chop as you don't know where the ball is coming at a very fast speed. You will have to move much faster and cover a longer distance to chop the ball than to block it gently over the table. Against a low level player you can do whatever you want... |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Using a hardbat against heavy inverted topspin is like going up against a guy with a chainsaw armed with only a backscratcher. Expect to get cut up a bit, and it's only satisfying if you emerge victorious with a whole skin.
All of the techniques suggested by the above contributors are sound, provided you have the experience and ability to incorporate them. Here is a tactic I found useful at the North American Teans back in 1999 against 1600-1800 heavy young topspinners, some coached by Jack Huang. None knew what a hardbat was, let alone what a hardbat could and couldn't do. What I did was let their loops drop to mid-calf level, let the topspin and sidespin decelerate somewhat, then chop them back with a downward and forward scooping motion. This, when successful, would often elicit a weak return, as looping human, as opposed to robotic underspin was not their forte, in which case I could run around my backhand and crush that weak return into their playing armpit with my forehand. Warning: this will louse up your hb to hb chop, contacted, depending on oncoming speed and your distance from the table, at waist to knee level. Warning number 2: playing hardbat against inverted or inverted antispin/long pips all the time will definitely censoriously muck up your beautiful classic hardbat technique. It's been the ruin of many a poor boy, and I, oh Lord, was one. |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Thanks for the suggestions they are very helpful.
berndt - since majority of the players at my club only play with inverted rubber, I am forced to try and improve my hardbat technique against inverted players. However, it you're suggesting playing against inverted players is not the right thing to do, I may have to reconsider my strategy. I didn't think playing hardbat against inverted rubbers will be a problem in terms of developing proper hardbat techniques.
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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thatguy
Super Member Joined: 08/21/2014 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 330 |
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Push and block till you get a loose one then smash
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Best strategy is to block off the bounce and send them left and right to get them on the run. Watch He Zhi Wen for more ideas.... :)
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-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Hi jrs,
I was kidding, I was kidding, I was kidding. Maybe I just gotta use the proper emoticon(s). It's an inverted, antispin and long pipped world out there, and has been (not my idea, BTW) for a good four decades. While the old masters played beautifully and you could actually tell one from another, it's now 2015 and you can play hardbat using sponge oriented techniques. You just have to modify your offensive strokes to go forward through the ball a bit more and and to chop both as a plan B and to arrive at an all-round game. You may also choose to be an historically informed hardbatter and employ strokes used by the greats of yore. Heavyspin is the first player I've seen to successfully reproduce the Barna backhand, complete with pirouette. Scott Gordon's strokes are Reisman derived, and Steve Berger is Dick Miles reincarnated. Scott Johnson also has a lot of Reisman in his classic game. Guys like Jim Butler, Dan Seemiller, Eric Owens, Freddie Gabriel, Samson Dubina do quite well with a sponge oriented approach. John Tannehill with his all-round game is something of a tweener, equally capable of attacking and defending from both wings. His footwork is also ridiculous (that is, exceptionally good). For my part, from 2000-2005 I played penhold/reverse penhold with a custom made 6-ply cph SuperHock plastered with Leyland. For the rpb I first copied Ma Lin, and after that Wang Hao. This heretical and contrarian approach worked pretty well for me after the adoption of the 40 mm. ball, but it took the better part of a year to accomplish the rpb down the line and the fh and rpb bh chops.
Edited by berndt_mann - 07/09/2015 at 2:34am |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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LOL ...what can I say but: |
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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I would add that you can also block the looped ball on the rise as opposed to the top of the bounce. If you can deaden the ball, this can be an effective ball because it not only gets back to the looper fairly quickly, but it doesn't move out off of the table well. It can really change the pace of the rally and throw off the other player's timing. Of course, higher level players will adjust relatively quickly, so a steady diet is not recommended.
One last item, even when blocking, you might want to try a small amount of topspin wrist movement at contact to ensure good contact with the ball. Just a little "micro-twitch" of movement. Nothing big. I think this helps ensure good contact and grip on the ball. If you hold the racket dead still, the odds of having the high spin ball skid off of the hardbat are, IMO, higher.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2337 |
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I think that blocking advice applies to inverted also.
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Here's a stratagem you might use, jrs, without having to change a single aspect of your hardbat game.
This is what the USATT rules have to say about racket examination: 2.4.8 At the start of a match and
whenever s/he changes his/her racket during a match a player shall
show the opponent and the umpire
the
racket s/he is about to use and shall allow
them
to examine it. Use this rule to your full advantage. Before a match begins or should your opponent change his racket during a match, inform your opponent in a Jack Palance bass that brooks no possibility of refusal that you are going to examine every square inch of his racket: rubber(s), topside and bottomside, and blade. Pretend to look for signs of doctoring with substances such as Falco Revolution No. 3, Love Potion No. 9, Chanel No. 5, Dianchi Oil, paraffin oil, olive oil, or Watco Danish Oil. Then say in a polite tone of voice, "nope, no signs of tampering anywhere; go ahead and put your rubbers back onto your blade." Naturally, your opponent will want to do the same thing to you. But you'll still have an edge. While his inverted looks as flat as an Abilene pancake and his long pips as curled as an unstuffed burrito, your hard rubber, cloth backed if you're sensible, will be no major problem to reglue back onto your blade. You can stand by whistling a happy tune while your opponent furiously tries to reglue his shot to crap rubber onto his totally undoctored blade. Once the match begins, let your apoplectic opponent do what he wants. No sense in trying to murder someone bent on committing suicide. Edited by berndt_mann - 07/09/2015 at 9:50pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Hmmm Berndt thanks, oh look weather out side is delightful....me I go play big Tennis without all the equipment issues.
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Not getting the opponent into a situation to break out the heavy loop is good preventive medicine. If you are able to play off the bounce medium speed or as fast as you can still keep it on the table and hit the player's middle pocket, you will generally stay away from the dreaded heavy loop. That isn't feasible all the time. So you got some things you can do.
RR pretty much covered it - chopping isn't an easy proposition and isn't so high percentage. WT has great advice on how to block in one way - changing hand pressure. Often, a looper is looking for the ball to come back with a little topspin and a certain pace, so he/she is positioned for that... but if the block is slower and has no spin or light underspin, the ball wont kick, it might even brake upon hte bounce and then the opponent is seriously out of position and off time - double trouble. Better players will adjust, so as noted, this cannot be the default response 100% of the time. I like the soft block to side angles idea as a variation. Surprisingly, many loopers of even 2000ish level are not very consistent getting these back with a high enough percentage. A fast block with a firm hand is good too if sent to pocket or wide. Those are your options. I agree with you that hitting those, unless they are high has a very fine line for error, it often isn't worth it and that is why you wrote your original post.
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Thanks BH-Man, also part of the problem I realize is that in my normal game I like to play off the table. So I think subconsciously, I was playing mid distance. So I need to play close to the table try the suggested shots.
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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If you are dead set on playing 3 ft or more off the table, then your options are limited to chopping (which wasn't working vs this guy) countering (which is tough as your margin for error is very small) or varying your hand pressure on whatever softer shot you choose (block, retrieve, soft counter). The variation of a very soft hand at impact will get a lot of players to setup for their finish in a position that is too far back and they will make errors reaching for a ball that doesn't go as far deep as they thought.
Another thing to do from that distance is to kill the spin and make a no-spin ball at only medium pace right at their crossover that lands deep. That shot has a lot of potential, but you really have to have soft hands and precision. Masters of hand pressure at impact (whether they are hardbat or inverted players) can do stuff like this and it messes up a lot of opponents.
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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I still believe that until this guy shows me he has TT footwork and can get into position, that quick or at least medium blocks to his crossover will handcuff and shackle this guy into submission or a high error rate. Taht will make him play softer and give you (if you stay close to the table) a chance to make a hard impact short swing stroke to make very fast drives that will trouble this guy a lot.
If this guy, who was bossing the points almost at will who NOW has his sweet time luxury taken away, he will be WAY more uncomfortable attacking and after his misses too many, will play more "Safe" and that is where you apply the tourniquet pressure on him with fast shots hit on the rise. In this scenario, suddenly, this guy who was in charge is running for the hills. hehe.
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Darn, I thought there was gold in them thar hills!
Good suggestion, I think I'll try the blocks close to the table, I need to improve my blocking in my regular game as well. So this might be a good way to practice my blocking. Also, I want to try and minimize the amount of wrist and pressure use to control the ball. Usually in tight situations or matches - it's hard to control these 2 things. So if I can reliably control the ball without using precise wrist/pressure adjustments - that would be better. No idea if that's possible or not but will try. |
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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The two 2000+ full time hardbat players who go to Boston TTC BOTH do the same thing to me to try to keep me from attacking with heavy spin. They try to get me into quick rallies, or be real deceiving with the wrist on the serve and me my play a soft return where they take the initiative and make a fast "dead" spin rally that they are more in control of than I.
I believe you were simply giving this opponent WAY too much time to setup and be comfortable. Find ways to take away that time and play closer to table and attack first and see what happens. If you cannot or are unwilling or decide it is better to NOT attack, then move him around with hte blocks or block it back right at hiz pocket as fast as you can comfortably control it.
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Yes after couple of weeks of thinking. It's so obvious I should stayed at the table and make him play different game than what he's used to. I'll be ready next time! There is always a next time!
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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