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Hardbat vs heavy topspin

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jrscatman View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07/08/2015 at 2:08pm
Hello,

When using a hardbat against heavy topspin what is the best strategy to use?
I find if I try to counter loop it, it goes long. I can chop but it's quite hard to keep the chop down, usually sits up for an easy kill. 

Thanks in advance

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2015 at 2:17pm

Chop heavy topspin .. attack backspin ..

Work on your chopping technique
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2015 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Hello,

When using a hardbat against heavy topspin what is the best strategy to use?
I find if I try to counter loop it, it goes long. I can chop but it's quite hard to keep the chop down, usually sits up for an easy kill. 

Thanks in advance


Use a controlled block at the height of the bounce over the table.  Your wrist must be super-relaxed to time it correctly.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2015 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Hello,

When using a hardbat against heavy topspin what is the best strategy to use?
I find if I try to counter loop it, it goes long. I can chop but it's quite hard to keep the chop down, usually sits up for an easy kill. 

Thanks in advance



Use a controlled block at the height of the bounce over the table.  Your wrist must be super-relaxed to time it correctly.






Assuming the heavy topspin is from an inverted rubber player .. which is the higher percentage return .. chop or block ?

Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 07/08/2015 at 2:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jt99sf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2015 at 2:40pm
This all heavily depends on the skill level of each player. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jt99sf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2015 at 2:47pm
all methods will work... practice, practice, practice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote gnopgnipster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2015 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


Chop heavy topspin .. attack backspin ..

Work on your chopping technique
Ditto + work on chop/blocks over the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2015 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

 

Assuming the heavy topspin is from an inverted rubber player .. which is the higher percentage return .. chop or block ?

Against a high level player, it's much harder to chop as you don't know where the ball is coming at a very fast speed.  You will have to move much faster and cover a longer distance to chop the ball than to block it gently over the table.  Against a low level player you can do whatever you want...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2015 at 4:12pm
Using a hardbat against heavy inverted topspin is like going up against a guy with a chainsaw armed with only a backscratcher.  Expect to get cut up a bit, and it's only satisfying if you emerge victorious with a whole skin.

All of the techniques suggested by the above contributors are sound, provided you have the experience and ability to incorporate them.

Here is a tactic I found useful at the North American Teans back in 1999 against 1600-1800 heavy young topspinners, some coached by Jack Huang.  None knew what a hardbat was, let alone what a hardbat could and couldn't do.  What I did was let their loops drop to mid-calf level, let the topspin and sidespin decelerate somewhat, then chop them back with a downward and forward scooping motion.  This, when successful, would often elicit a weak return, as looping human, as opposed to robotic underspin was not their forte, in which case I could run around my backhand and crush that weak return into their playing armpit with my forehand.  Warning:  this will louse up your hb to hb chop, contacted, depending on oncoming speed and your distance from the table, at waist to knee level.  

Warning number 2:  playing hardbat against inverted or inverted antispin/long pips all the time will definitely censoriously muck up your beautiful classic hardbat technique.  It's been the ruin of many a poor boy, and I, oh Lord, was one.  



 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2015 at 12:14am
Thanks for the suggestions they are very helpful. 
berndt - since majority of the players at my club only play with inverted rubber, I am forced to try and improve my hardbat technique against inverted players. However, it you're suggesting playing against inverted players is not the right thing to do, I may have to reconsider my strategy.

I didn't think playing hardbat against inverted rubbers will be a problem in terms of developing proper hardbat techniques. 
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Push and block till you get a loose one then smash
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2015 at 1:38am
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Hello,

When using a hardbat against heavy topspin what is the best strategy to use?
I find if I try to counter loop it, it goes long. I can chop but it's quite hard to keep the chop down, usually sits up for an easy kill. 

Thanks in advance

 
Best strategy is to block off the bounce and send them left and right to get them on the run. Watch He Zhi Wen for more ideas.... :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2015 at 2:15am
Hi jrs,

I was kidding, I was kidding, I was kidding.  Maybe I just gotta use the proper emoticon(s).  It's an inverted, antispin and long pipped world out there, and has been (not my idea, BTW) for a good four decades.  While the old masters played beautifully and you could actually tell one from another, it's now 2015 and you can play hardbat using sponge oriented techniques.  You just have to modify your offensive strokes to go forward through the ball a bit more and and to chop both as a plan B and to arrive at an all-round game.

You may also choose to be an historically informed hardbatter and employ strokes used by the greats of yore.  Heavyspin is the first player I've seen to successfully reproduce the Barna backhand, complete with pirouette.  Scott Gordon's strokes are Reisman derived, and Steve Berger is Dick Miles reincarnated.  Scott Johnson also has a lot of Reisman in his classic game.  

Guys like Jim Butler, Dan Seemiller, Eric Owens, Freddie Gabriel, Samson Dubina do quite well with a sponge oriented approach.  John Tannehill with his all-round game is something of a tweener, equally capable of attacking and defending from both wings.  His footwork is also ridiculous (that is, exceptionally good).

For my part, from 2000-2005 I played penhold/reverse penhold with a custom made 6-ply cph SuperHock plastered with Leyland.  For the rpb I first copied Ma Lin, and after that Wang Hao.  This heretical and contrarian approach worked pretty well for me after the adoption of the 40 mm. ball, but it took the better part of a year to accomplish the rpb down the line and the fh and rpb bh chops.


Edited by berndt_mann - 07/09/2015 at 2:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2015 at 3:03am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Hi jrs,

I was kidding, I was kidding, I was kidding.  Maybe I just gotta use the proper emoticon(s)...  

LOL ...what can I say but:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2015 at 12:32pm
I would add that you can also block the looped ball on the rise as opposed to the top of the bounce.  If you can deaden the ball, this can be an effective ball because it not only gets back to the looper fairly quickly, but it doesn't move out off of the table well.  It can really change the pace of the rally and throw off the other player's timing.  Of course, higher level players will adjust relatively quickly, so a steady diet is not recommended. 

One last item, even when blocking, you might want to try a small amount of topspin wrist movement at contact to ensure good contact with the ball. Just a little "micro-twitch" of movement.  Nothing big.  I think this helps ensure good contact and grip on the ball.  If you hold the racket dead still, the odds of having the high spin ball skid off of the hardbat are, IMO, higher.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2015 at 3:18pm
I think that blocking advice applies to inverted also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2015 at 4:11pm
Here's a stratagem you might use, jrs, without having to change a single aspect of your hardbat game.

This is what the USATT rules have to say about racket examination:


2.4.8 At the start of a match and whenever s/he changes his/her racket during a match a player shall show the opponent and the umpire the racket s/he is about to use and shall allow them to examine it.


Use this rule to your full advantage.  Before a match begins or should your opponent change his racket during a match, inform your opponent in a Jack Palance bass that brooks no possibility of refusal that you are going to examine every square inch of his racket:  rubber(s), topside and bottomside, and blade.  Pretend to look for signs of doctoring with substances such as Falco Revolution No. 3, Love Potion No. 9, Chanel No. 5, Dianchi Oil, paraffin oil, olive oil, or Watco Danish Oil.  Then say in a polite tone of voice, "nope, no signs of tampering anywhere; go ahead and put your rubbers back onto your blade."

Naturally, your opponent will want to do the same thing to you.  But you'll still have an edge.  While his inverted looks as flat as an Abilene pancake and his long pips as curled as an unstuffed burrito, your hard rubber, cloth backed if you're sensible, will be no major problem to reglue back onto your blade.

You can stand by whistling a happy tune while your opponent furiously tries to reglue his shot to crap rubber onto his totally undoctored blade.

Once the match begins, let your apoplectic opponent do what he wants.  No sense in trying to murder someone bent on committing suicide.



Edited by berndt_mann - 07/09/2015 at 9:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2015 at 4:32pm
Hmmm Berndt thanks, oh look weather out side is delightful....me I go play big Tennis without all the equipment issues. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2015 at 8:27am
Not getting the opponent into a situation to break out the heavy loop is good preventive medicine. If you are able to play off the bounce medium speed or as fast as you can still keep it on the table and hit the player's middle pocket, you will generally stay away from the dreaded heavy loop. That isn't feasible all the time. So you got some things you can do.

RR pretty much covered it - chopping isn't an easy proposition and isn't so high percentage. 

WT has great advice on how to block in one way - changing hand pressure. Often, a looper is looking for the ball to come back with a little topspin and a certain pace, so he/she is positioned for that... but if the block is slower and has no spin or light underspin, the ball wont kick, it might even brake upon hte bounce and then the opponent is seriously out of position and off time - double trouble. Better players will adjust, so as noted, this cannot be the default response 100% of the time.

I like the soft block to side angles idea as a variation. Surprisingly, many loopers of even 2000ish level are not very consistent getting these back with a high enough percentage.

A fast block with a firm hand is good too if sent to pocket or wide.

Those are your options. I agree with you that hitting those, unless they are high has a very fine line for error, it often isn't worth it and that is why you wrote your original post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2015 at 9:42am
Thanks BH-Man, also part of the problem I realize is that in my normal game I like to play off the table. So I think subconsciously, I was playing mid distance. So I need to play close to the table try the suggested shots. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2015 at 10:38am
If you are dead set on playing 3 ft or more off the table, then your options are limited to chopping (which wasn't working vs this guy) countering (which is tough as your margin for error is very small) or varying your hand pressure on whatever softer shot you choose (block, retrieve, soft counter). The variation of a very soft hand at impact will get a lot of players to setup for their finish in a position that is too far back and they will make errors reaching for a ball that doesn't go as far deep as they thought.

Another thing to do from that distance is to kill the spin and make a no-spin ball at only medium pace right at their crossover that lands deep. That shot has a lot of potential, but you really have to have soft hands and precision. Masters of hand pressure at impact (whether they are hardbat or inverted players) can do stuff like this and it messes up a lot of opponents.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2015 at 10:44am
I still believe that until this guy shows me he has TT footwork and can get into position, that quick or at least medium blocks to his crossover will handcuff and shackle this guy into submission or a high error rate. Taht will make him play softer and give you  (if you stay close to the table) a chance to make a hard impact short swing stroke to make very fast drives that will trouble this guy a lot.

If this guy, who was bossing the points almost at will who NOW has his sweet time luxury taken away, he will be WAY more uncomfortable attacking and after his misses too many, will play more "Safe" and that is where you apply the tourniquet pressure on him with fast shots hit on the rise.

In this scenario, suddenly, this guy who was in charge is running for the hills.



hehe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2015 at 10:40pm
Darn, I thought there was gold in them thar hills!

Good suggestion, I think I'll try the blocks close to the table, I need to improve my blocking in my regular game as well. So this might be a good way to practice my blocking. 

Also, I want to try and minimize the amount of wrist and pressure use to control the ball. Usually in tight situations or matches - it's hard to control these 2 things. So if I can reliably control the ball without using  precise wrist/pressure adjustments - that would be better. No idea if that's possible or not but will try.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 5:09pm
The two 2000+ full time hardbat players who go to Boston TTC BOTH do the same thing to me to try to keep me from attacking with heavy spin. They try to get me into quick rallies, or be real deceiving with the wrist on the serve and me my play a soft return where they take the initiative and make a fast "dead" spin rally that they are more in control of than I.

I believe you were simply giving this opponent WAY too much time to setup and be comfortable. Find ways to take away that time and play closer to table and attack first and see what happens. If you cannot or are unwilling or decide it is better to NOT attack, then move him around with hte blocks or block it back right at hiz pocket as fast as you can comfortably control it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/14/2015 at 12:17am
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

The two 2000+ full time hardbat players who go to Boston TTC BOTH do the same thing to me to try to keep me from attacking with heavy spin. They try to get me into quick rallies, or be real deceiving with the wrist on the serve and me my play a soft return where they take the initiative and make a fast "dead" spin rally that they are more in control of than I.

I believe you were simply giving this opponent WAY too much time to setup and be comfortable. Find ways to take away that time and play closer to table and attack first and see what happens. If you cannot or are unwilling or decide it is better to NOT attack, then move him around with hte blocks or block it back right at hiz pocket as fast as you can comfortably control it.
Yes after couple of weeks of thinking. It's so obvious I should stayed at the table and make him play different game than what he's used to. I'll be ready next time! There is always a next time!
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