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Play of Genius. Blocking skills. |
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berndt_mann
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"A thing worth having is a thing worth cheating for". W. C. Fields
Words to live by, whether you're a little nipper getting his first sheets of boosted Tenergy 80FX(YZ) from a proud parent or an aging battle scarred veteran squeezing half a tube of Krazy Glue onto his already questionable long pips a few hours before drawing down in the over 100 division of the World Veterans' Table Tennis Championships. Family fun for everyone. Disneyland, only without Mickey Mouse, Minnie Mouse, or Donald Duck. Just Goofy. No more happy hour for the time being in Hard Rubber Heaven. All the immortals, on viewing this sad present state of affairs from high above, began binge drinking triple shots of Bullett bourbon, resulting in an inability to stay on their ermine lined barstools for long, uncontrollable laughing, weeping, or singing all 135 verses of "The Wild Looper" or "One of the Has Beens (A Chopper [Blocker] I Mean)" at the top of their Heavenly lungs. Once sanity is restored to table tennis, the Mechlovitz Bar and Grill in Hard Rubber Heaven is expected to reopen. This may take a while. Edited by berndt_mann - 08/01/2015 at 10:51pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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wturber
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I mean that the players saw that the rubber was an approved for USATT hardbat play and it did not appear to be modified in any way. I have no idea what you mean by referring to a big rectangle stamp.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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clannewton
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Just curious, when you said "another team examined the rubber and it was legit". What means did they determine that the rubber was not altered to attain the frictionless factor that was not there when the rubber was produced? I was at one other NA team tournaments and watched Pushblocker have his frictionless rubber examined by a umpire, and the only thing he did was wipe a ball across it and Pushblocker in an almost baiting attitude inquired where was that documented as a legitimate test for testing the pips friction and inquired where in the rule book was this test documented, to which there was not an answer. So it appears as long as the rubber is sanctioned on the ittf/usatt equipment list, the rubber is legal(no matter how it is treated/doctored/altered) as there is no procedure documented to officially test the friction factor. Now that does not take into to consideration the moral and ethical questions this raises such as is it cheating if they can't test it or you don't get caught? There was a long discussion about this on a prior posting with lots of hurt feelings, so maybe that does no need to be rehashed. But the gist of the rule about not altering the rubber has been violated by pip players(frictionless) and non-pip players(boosting) alike. I believe Jun Mitzutani went on a unofficial hiatus for a short time to protest the boosting on the pro level to no avail. It is unfortunate the rule makers place this temptation scenario in front of the players as to many are unable to resist the temptation. It becomes less of a game/sport when the rules that are there are unenforceable.
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Nittaku Violin FL-L
FH Donic Bluefire m-1 max BH Donic Bluefire m-2 max Cocoa Beach TTC, Florida |
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IanMcg
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I am sure that Pushblocker would never use a treated rubber in tournament. Yes, he uses long pimples that are more suited for the blocking style (having longer, thinner, more spaced out pimples with less friction) but I doubt that he would ever intentionally treat or modify a rubber to use in tournement.
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Kolev
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Looking thoroughly at those videos I see a very experienced player who knows what he's doing. His blocks may be difficult to deal with , but his FH was equally deadly. I saw few times his opponents missed even his push.....not to mention his serves. I have played few times this type of players and although I am very good against traditional LP defenders , I can't do much against this type of gentle and thouchy blocks....and just to add that from time to time I play guys who have treated their LP's,but that never really bothered me like for example years ago I was horrified by Boomerang and similar... My two cents
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clannewton
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Don't bet your life on that assumption! |
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Nittaku Violin FL-L
FH Donic Bluefire m-1 max BH Donic Bluefire m-2 max Cocoa Beach TTC, Florida |
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andras
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the Italian leaflet for a game without "cheaters "
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Kolev
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Wow ,so enlightening....
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Hallmark Carbon Extreme (x3)
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andras
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if anyone is interested to join or adhere to their society campaign can send an email to : [email protected]
and will receive material and information about it.
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ZingyDNA
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Man Habesohn is like world #50, and the other guys is killing him!
I think the other guy is not anywhere close to top 50 in the world?
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berndt_mann
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Might it possibly be time once again to let the players' intrinsic skills and not the rubbers and/or substances used to doctor them dictate how the sport of table tennis is to be played? In no other racquet sport is this sort of Keystone Kops latitude allowed to happen. This would be slapstick, if there weren't fair amounts of money involved at the highest levels of play and nice little trophies plus bragging rights and something to put on your mantlepiece for those of us who toil or who have toiled away in the coal mines of the lower levels.
Edited by berndt_mann - 08/04/2015 at 7:32pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Tassie52
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And what the hell are "player's intrinsic skills"? I'm only aware of learned skills, and all of those learned skills are gained by holding a piece of equipment. Which inevitably means that those skills are equipment specific; e.g. if I learn to chop with short pimples then what I learn will be different from what I would have acquired playing with antispin or LP or hardbat or inverted. Those learned skills are only transferable to a limited degree - and watching Waldner playing hardbat is clear evidence of that. Taking your purple prose out of it, I think there is something in what you say. I certainly believe that doctoring rubber is a form of cheating, regardless of the nonsensical arguments that it requires greater skill to play with corrupted rubber than with sheets straight out of the packet. But the bottom line is that players will cheat because they are convinced that they are inadequate without "an edge".
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berndt_mann
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http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/intrinsic
in·trin·sic/inˈtrinzik/adjective I believe that it is possible to argue that the skills and techniques essential to successful play at the sport of table tennis, however one may choose to define or quantify that measure of success, may be inculcated in players through extensive practice and achieved without recourse to table tennis rubbers with exceptionally spinny or obstructive properties that in addition cannot be doctored or tampered with without rendering such rubber useless for successful competitive play. IF the only currently permissable rubber meeting these criteria proves to be that rubber which used to be known before the advent of long pimpled rubbers as short pimpled rubber without sponge, or "ordinary pimpled rubber", so be it. Perhaps, Tassie52, you being an extremely clever fellow, can think of or come up with a viable alternative. And of course one has to learn how to play table tennis skillfully with any type of rubber doctored or undoctored, including hard rubber (not advisable to doctor). I'm not denying that. But if you can think of a way to tamper with hard rubber in a manner so as to give it the same playing properties as Tenergy 80FX National Team (don't care which nation) or Hurricane 3 Neo National Team blue sponge or all of the TSP Curl long pipped rubbers, just drop me an e-mail through this forum. Cheers, Edited by berndt_mann - 08/05/2015 at 2:21am |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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andras
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You have to reach a goal at a time , in this moment need 3 things :
1 ) a secure method of detecting the booster
2 ) a safe method for the control of the minimum of friction
3 ) the extension of the minimum of friction for all rubber
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smackman
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Andras you could start your own post so more people could see what you are trying to do
and berndt I skim you unless the post is about hardbat
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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berndt_mann
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Dear smackman,
Feel free to skim any post I write, unless of course about hardbat. I do not read every post you write either. I'm sure that your feelings are not hurt, and I assure you that neither are mine. |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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berndt_mann
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(Tassie52) ....Which inevitably means that those skills are equipment specific; e.g. if
I learn to chop with short pimples then what I learn will be different
from what I would have acquired playing with antispin or LP or hardbat
or inverted. Those learned skills are only transferable to a limited
degree - and watching Waldner playing hardbat is clear evidence of that...
Which inevitably leads in my mind to ask why these skills should be equipment specific, or why any skill employed in any racquet sport should be dependent to any overly influential extent on the multiplicity of striking equipment available, doctored or not, to strike a ball or shuttlecock? You are correct, however, that some table tennis skills are, or at least seem to be, "equipment specific." I have watched both Waldner and Joo Se Hyuk playing hardbat, and can attest that their learned skills with their sponge rubber rackets are hardly completely transferable when competing or playing for funsies against players whose learned skills have made the more successful transition from sponge play to hard rubber play. (Tassie52) But the bottom line is that players will cheat because they are convinced that they are inadequate without "an edge". My. A Perry Mason moment. As convincing an argument for cheating as I have ever read. The entire Chinese National Team inadequate without "an edge"? Fang Bo a mere mortal without whatever booster he uses or comes built into whatever rubber he uses? You are surely aware that the I do it because everybody else is doing it argument is not ethically sustainable. It would be as ethically unusual to maintain that because you are a thief (I do not mean you specifically), and all of your cohorts are thieves, that thievery gives you a moral edge over working honestly for a living even if you do get caught. Edited by berndt_mann - 08/05/2015 at 6:33am |
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bmann1942
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Tassie52
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andras
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ZingyDNA
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The examples you gave are different sports, or same sport different era, so I don't think they are good examples. Of course Tiger can't drive 300 m with a cricket, because he ain't a cricket player. The question is if he can drive 300 m with some other top golf pro's equipment? I know nothing about golf but I think the answer should be Yes?
The same goes for Djokovic using Federer's racket. Pretty sure he can win another grand slam with that?
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Victor_the_cleaner
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This guys is a very different player than Pushblocker, and much more skilled. I have very little doubt he would have won with any rubber. His belly was a big handicap, but I can see he has great touch and his FH is just nasty. Pushblocker has no FH at all and relies totally on confusion and misjudgement of the spin. Very different that this dude. This dude's got great touch man, short stop, long in the corner, knuckle ball, and what about the serve? That serve was nasty for a non pro. Pushblocker's serve is like nothing. This guys is really good, and this argument about the rubber really pulled the thread in the wrong direction. It really doesn't matter if he treated the rubber at all, as it doesn't matter if you comply with an arbitrary idiotic decision by a corrupt bureaucracy. There is absolutely nothing immoral in that, and certainly nothing illegal, as there is no international or domestic law that refers to properties of TT rubber. Thats just the truth, and mind you I hate choppers, and I think 'boosting' is a fancy label that people use for the otherwise stupid action of reducing the density of a rubber.
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wturber
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There are international and national laws that say you are not allowed to alter the rubber. 2.4.7 The racket covering shall be used without any physical, chemical or other treatment. Proving that the rubber is or isn't altered is problematic, but it remains that altering it is illegal.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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berndt_mann
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(Tassie52) This is the disingenuous intro. to what you're really trying to say. Of
course skills are equipment specific. Aussie Rules players can't kick a
soccer ball to save their lives any more than Ronaldo can boot a
Sherrin. Novak Djokovic would never win another pro tennis event if he
was forced to use Roy Emerson's racquet. Let's see if Tiger Woods can
drive 300 metres using a cricket bat.
Apples and oranges, Tassie52. True but irrelevant, Tassie52. You know as well as I that I was talking specifically about table tennis players using today's table tennis equipment. Table tennis players need not be able to kick a soccer ball, boot a Sherrin, use Roy Emerson's racquet, or hit a golf ball 300 meters using a cricket bat. Disingenuous, Tassie52, as is your claim to divine what I am really trying to say. (Tassie52) And this is what you really want to say, isn't it, Berndt? You cannot reconcile yourself to the fact that we're using 21st century technology when you believe we should still be living in the 1950s. The "overly influential extent" you so lament is, of course, another person's bread and butter. It's all about preferences. There is no Commandment that says, "Thou shalt all use hardbat". I stopped living in the 1950s as of January 1st, 1960. And it's not all about bread and butter or preferences. It's about whether altering table tennis rubbers is ethical and what if anything can or should be done about that. No, there is no Commandment that says, "Thou shalt all use hardbat." If you can think of another way to make table tennis fairer and more honest please do so. So far you have, despite decrying cheating, yet to propose an alternative solution. Edited by berndt_mann - 08/05/2015 at 4:36pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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andras
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if the player in the video has good skills I (and I am not strong) game as Ma Long.
I work because his forehand pulls the ball returning after a block with his irregular rubber and the ball is easy but really easy for kill loop. Its services (probably his best shot) is all top-side spin function because it blocks the ball back with his rubber irregular. Without that rubber he does not win a game against players much weaker than those seen in the video exactly as the Dott. neubauer would not win any title veterans. IMHO In addition, the opponent has many disadvantages: It can not serve because it would return a ball side spin very difficult to play. can not serve short because the rubber with the strong push. It can serve not only spin or slight back spin long to get back a playable ball to the player who receives it is a huge advantage. If your opponent makes a top spin and he blocks with the irregular rubber ball that will return the will be impossible to another top spin, only be placed in the other side of the camp, I player using the rubber irregular know and prepares shot (kill loops) with great anticipation. If the player plays with inverted rubber side-top spin or side ----- back spin the ball back is very difficult to manage. The player with the rubber when irregular blocks a topspin does not need to change the angle of the racket according to the spin coming just to put the rubber ball in front of his block will be almost impossible for his opponent to make another top spin without going to the network even if his shot will be high on the table I can go on for several pages to write down all the inconsistencies of this type of tires |
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Kolev
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This is becoming too big of a discussion and way out of the original thread.....Nonsenses coming out of enviousness
Edited by Kolev - 08/05/2015 at 5:53pm |
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Hallmark Carbon Extreme (x3)
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kurokami
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755 is legal. our kid choppers use 755. it's mixed half-long pips. so you can play both SP hits and LP chop though not as strong with either. they played US Open up to 2200 no problem.
those guys don't play LP well. it's not really the rubber. we have kids here who practice vs LP all the time and they will basically never miss from the underspin going into the net.
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Viscaria
H3N/T05 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65345&KW=&title=feedback-kurokami |
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wturber
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You can say the same thing about the opponent using spinny inverted. Take it away and his chances of winning diminish greatly. Change any player's rubber drastically and their ability to win is likely to drop dramatically. How else can a 1900-is hardbat player like myself defeat a younger, better, and clearly superior 2700 level player? Larry Hodges used to routinely defeat sub-2000 level players using a clipboard for a paddle. That doesn't mean that a bare piece of pressboard is inherently a better playing surface or inherently unfair. It just means Larry is skilled in using it and most sub-2000 level players aren't generally skilled or clever enough to deal with it well. Edited by wturber - 08/05/2015 at 7:27pm |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
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If the long pips player altered his rubber, maybe it is because he's tired of playing against all the boosted rubbers. Edited by wturber - 08/05/2015 at 7:31pm |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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andras
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Me cheater because people cheater very impressive !!!!! Table tennis is very good sport If you read we wont stop ALL cheaters NOT only the long pimple player. If people cheaters need stop the cheaters not compensate for cheating better |
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Victor_the_cleaner
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wturber, this is not a law, as the governments have monopolized that area. ITTF creates arbitrary, I would say, rules for the game of table tennis. This is not a law and nobody will go to jail or get fined for treating rubber with stuff. People have developed a fetish to those rules and call them law. Here is a new law, I am writing it right now: #1. Thau shall not make idiotic table tennis rules! Is that law now? But it has the same legal strength as the entire ITTF rulebook. Breaking stupid table tennis rules is not only immoral, but sometimes necessary. People should not blindly follow authority, no matter who the authority. Remember, even the US government used to think that it is OK to own other human beings as property and more recently to put its own citizens in concentration camps. All government bodies are made of corrupt and incompetent humans who always pursue their personal interests first. People need to wake up and sniff the roses and protest when they see something stinks. Remember the Nuremberg Trials. People were post factum convicted for not only following the law but taking explicit orders. Accepting everything that ITTF throws at us only emboldens them to further and further pursuing monetizing the sport. We can soon be playing with 50 mm ball in 5 point games with a 1 foot net. They don't care. Whatever will bring more money from audience and TV rights, that will be the next law.
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