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Play of Genius. Blocking skills.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2015 at 7:53pm
"A thing worth having is a thing worth cheating for".  W. C. Fields

Words to live by, whether you're a little nipper getting his first sheets of boosted Tenergy 80FX(YZ) from a proud parent or an aging battle scarred veteran squeezing half a tube of Krazy Glue onto his already questionable long pips a few hours before drawing down in the over 100 division of the World Veterans' Table Tennis Championships.  Family fun for everyone.  Disneyland, only without Mickey Mouse, Minnie Mouse, or Donald Duck.  Just Goofy.

No more happy hour for the time being in Hard Rubber Heaven.  All the immortals, on viewing this sad present state of affairs from high above, began binge drinking triple shots of Bullett bourbon, resulting in an inability to stay on their ermine lined barstools for long, uncontrollable laughing, weeping, or singing all 135 verses of "The Wild Looper" or "One of the Has Beens (A Chopper [Blocker] I Mean)" at the top of their Heavenly lungs. 

Once sanity is restored to table tennis, the Mechlovitz Bar and Grill in Hard Rubber Heaven is expected to reopen. This may take a while.


Edited by berndt_mann - 08/01/2015 at 10:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2015 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

When you said "....Subsequently another team did take a look and all was legit.  Just goes to show how easy it is to misjudge these things.....", do you mean that the rubber has a big rectangle stamp on the right-hand side? If it is, you are a  better lawyer than Johnnie Cochran LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL


I mean that the players saw that the rubber was an approved for USATT hardbat play and it did not appear to be modified in any way. I have no idea what you mean by referring to a big rectangle stamp.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clannewton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2015 at 12:37am
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

the ball that return from the impact have extreme "reverse" spin is IMPOSSIBLE if rubber is legal.

Pimple rubber have minimum friction in ITTF RULE this is the motivation because in this moment best flictionless is antispin (like ABS---BAD--SPIN PARASITE ecc...)and not pimple rubber but frictionless pimple have most destructive return (ball have some strange return).
If long pimple rubber work like total frictionless is 100% modified and NOT RESPECT THE RULE but in turnament not exsist friction test this is the problem.Confused
in my team me have 3 player that use it and know very well this rubber Wink 

Sorry.  You are looking at fuzzy video and at best are only making a reasonable guess.

At this year's US Open I was fairly convinced that one team we faced un Hardbat Doubles must have some odd non-legal rubber on their rackets.  But the match had already started and we hadn't looked at their rackets.  So I made no issue of it.  Subsequently another team did take a look and all was legit.  Just goes to show how easy it is to misjudge these things.  And in this case it wasn't fuzzy video, but was me directly playing the match.

When I used inverted, I regularly had people asking me if I had anti-spin on my backhand when I had tacky 729 of some kind. 

The way to know is to examine the rubber directly.  Everything else is a guess at best.
Just curious, when you said "another team examined the rubber and it was legit".
What means did they determine that the rubber was not altered to attain the frictionless factor that was not there when the rubber was produced?  I was at one other NA team tournaments and watched Pushblocker have his frictionless rubber examined by a umpire, and the only thing he did was wipe a ball across it and Pushblocker in an almost baiting attitude inquired where was that documented as a legitimate test for testing the pips friction and inquired where in the rule book was this test documented, to which there was not an answer.  So it appears as long as the rubber is sanctioned on the ittf/usatt equipment list, the rubber is legal(no matter how it is treated/doctored/altered) as there is no procedure documented to officially test the friction factor.  Now that does not take into to consideration the moral and ethical questions this raises such as is it cheating if they can't test it or you don't get caught?  There was a long discussion about this on a prior posting with lots of hurt feelings, so maybe that does no need to be rehashed.  But the gist of the rule about not altering the rubber has been violated by pip players(frictionless) and non-pip players(boosting) alike.  I believe Jun Mitzutani went on a unofficial hiatus for a short time to protest the boosting on the pro level to no avail. It is unfortunate the rule makers place this temptation scenario in front of the players as to many are unable to resist the temptation. It becomes less of a game/sport when the rules that are there are unenforceable.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanMcg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2015 at 1:50am
I am sure that Pushblocker would never use a treated rubber in tournament. Yes, he uses long pimples that are more suited for the blocking style (having longer, thinner, more spaced out pimples with less friction) but I doubt that he would ever intentionally treat or modify a rubber to use in tournement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2015 at 2:26am
Looking thoroughly at those videos I see a very experienced player who knows what he's doing. His blocks may be difficult to deal with , but his FH was equally deadly. I saw few times his opponents missed even his push.....not to mention his serves. I have played few times this type of players and although I am very good against traditional LP defenders , I can't do much against this type of gentle and thouchy blocks....and just to add that from time to time I play guys who have treated their LP's,but that never really bothered me like for example years ago I was horrified by Boomerang and similar... My two cents
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clannewton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2015 at 9:51am
Originally posted by IanMcg IanMcg wrote:

I am sure that Pushblocker would never use a treated rubber in tournament. Yes, he uses long pimples that are more suited for the blocking style (having longer, thinner, more spaced out pimples with less friction) but I doubt that he would ever intentionally treat or modify a rubber to use in tournement.

Don't bet your life on that assumption!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2015 at 8:27am
the Italian leaflet for a game without "cheaters  "


Questo testo viene mostrato quando limmagine è bloccata
 
Questo testo viene mostrato quando limmagine è bloccata
IN ATTESA DELLA FITET
Il 17 giugno abbiamo inviato alla Fitet di Roma e a tutte le sedi regionali la proposta finale, sostenuta da 31 società e da oltre 200 giocatori, che hanno aderito alla campagna "Io gioco pulito".
Il 3 luglio la Federazione nazionale ha risposto con la seguente email: "la proposta sarà oggetto, appena possibile, di approfondimento da parte del Consiglio Federale".
E' ipotizzabile che il prossimo Consiglio Federale si terrà in ottobre, per cui aggiorneremo tutti gli interessati non appena avremo una risposta ufficiale. Nel frattempo però è opportuno che ogni sostenitore della campagna faccia pressione presso la propria Federazione Regionale, chiedendo quali iniziative intenda intraprendere per combattere il fenomeno delle gomme truccate.
Chi volesse aggiungere il proprio nome all'elenco degli aderenti, oppure far aderire la propria società alla campagna, può inviare un'email a [email protected], scrivendo nell'oggetto "Io gioco pulito".
 
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BOOSTERIZZO E ME NE VANTO
Ai campionati italiani di Torino, mentre circolavano numerose magliette della campagna "Io gioco pulito", due tifosi del taroccamento (Gianluca Corrente e Michele Valentino, nella foto a fianco ), presentavano la loro personale campagna "Io boosterizzo" con un testimonial d'eccezione: un arbitro federale, che evidentemente non considerava particolarmente grave l'autodenuncia dei due taroccatori.
I due coraggiosi esponenti del TT Arcadia di Torino non rappresentano un caso isolato. Secondo alcuni dei più noti allenatori italiani, contattati a Torino, sembra che i primi 100-200 giocatori d’Italia non possano fare a meno di boosterizzare, per riuscire a competere ad alto livello. 
Sembra inoltre che a livello internazionale si tratti di una prassi normale, per cui ogni squadra è dotata di esperti boosterizzatori, che riescono a eludere i controlli dell'ITTF (anche se la lista dei giocatori pescati con gomme aventi spessori fuori norma negli ultimi anni è in netta crescita). 
In effetti sono pochissimi i giocatori di alta classifica che hanno aderito alla campagna "Io gioco pulito", per cui l'idea che  a un certo livello l'illegalità sia molto diffusa non è poi così strampalata, anche se diffondere l'idea che "così fan tutti" potrebbe essere un alibi per giustificare i taroccatori.
 
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LE ANTITOP MODIFICATE SBANCANO A TORINO 
Le nostre magliette, che sono molto piaciute ai boosterizzatori, hanno stimolato anche l'innata creatività dei modificatori di antitop. Al centro della foto a fianco si distingue Claudio Maccabiani, esponente di punta della tendenza tecnica più cool dell'anno, di cui Roberto Negro è il leader indiscusso: l'uso di antitop, a cui viene sostituita la gommapiuma per migliorare il controllo e fatte opportunamente invecchiare per avere la massima scivolosità della superficie, con cui ottengono le micidiali inversioni di rotazione della pallina che hanno fatto la fortuna delle puntinate trattate (ormai però facilmente identificabili, come hanno dimostrato le recenti esclusioni dai tornei lombardi di alcuni noti puntinati "trattati"). 
Maccabiani, che per un decennio è stato uno dei massimi esponenti lombardi nell'uso della puntinata con tecnica " a muretto", negli ultimi 3 anni ha montato un antitop Tony Hold invecchiata di 10 anni (come il cognac XO invecchiato in botte...) e ha scalato la classifica, portandosi dalla posizione 596 all'attuale 269, nonostante i suoi 37 anni.
A giugno si sono visti molti epigoni di Negro e Maccabiani fare man bassa di titoli ai campionati italiani di Torino: Carbotta ha vinto il titolo nel singolo maschile quarta, Pinzoni  il singolo maschile 5a, Cristofaro il doppio misto 4a e Castagno il doppio maschile 4a. Se a questo si aggiunge che lo scudetto di serie A è stato vinto grazie alla vittoria al quinto set di Negro su Conciauro, nella partita decisiva, si può ben dire che il 2015 è stato un anno d'oro per le antitop. 
Nel mese di maggio ho inviato alla Fitet una richiesta di chiarimento regolamentare, in quanto ritenevo che la sostituzione della gommapiuma costituisse un illecito, in quanto l'omologazione riguarda l'intero rivestimento (gommapiuma + topsheet).
Il regolamento a mio avviso parla chiaro, ma per ​​avere un parere ufficiale bisognerà aspettare il Consiglio Federale. Nel frattempo stiamo facendo alcuni test di laboratorio per verificare l'invecchiamento artificiale (con lampade a infrarossi e UV), in modo da poter riscontrare oggettivamente l'eventuale trattamento delle gomme. 
Maggiori approfondimenti tecnici sono disponibili sul forum tennis-tavolo.com al link http://tennis-tavolo.com/threads/io-gioco-pulito.40676/
 
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UNA CAMPAGNA PER LA LEGALITA'
Indipendentemente dalle risposte che otterremo dagli organismi federali, è stato già raggiunto un grande risultato: ci sono tanti giocatori che non temono di essere controllati e tante squadre che si impegnano a controllare i propri giocatori, perchè non si rassegnano all'illegalità sportiva.
Per dare ulteriore visibilità alla campagna mandatemi le vostre foto con la magliette: chi fosse interessato ad averle mi contatti via email ([email protected]).
 
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RISPETTO DELLE REGOLE 
A tutti coloro che non hanno ancora ben chiaro il significato di lealtà sportiva consigliamo la visione di questo filmato
 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2015 at 4:29pm
Wow ,so enlightening....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2015 at 4:57pm
if anyone is interested to join or adhere to their society campaign can send an email to : [email protected]
and will receive material and information about it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2015 at 6:23pm
Man Habesohn is like world #50, and the other guys is killing him!

I think the other guy is not anywhere close to top 50 in the world?

Originally posted by Eric Fountain Eric Fountain wrote:


^ Switch paddles with the user and try playing them with it. My money is on them. 



   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2015 at 7:31pm
Might it possibly be time once again to let the players' intrinsic skills and not the rubbers and/or substances used to doctor them dictate how the sport of table tennis is to be played?  In no other racquet sport is this sort of Keystone Kops latitude allowed to happen.  This would be slapstick, if there weren't fair amounts of money involved at the highest levels of play and nice little trophies plus bragging rights and something to put on your mantlepiece for those of us who toil or who have toiled away in the coal mines of the lower levels. 




Edited by berndt_mann - 08/04/2015 at 7:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 1:01am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Might it possibly be time once again to let the players' intrinsic skills and not the rubbers and/or substances used to doctor them dictate how the sport of table tennis is to be played?  In no other racquet sport is this sort of Keystone Kops latitude allowed to happen.  This would be slapstick, if there weren't fair amounts of money involved at the highest levels of play and nice little trophies plus bragging rights and something to put on your mantlepiece for those of us who toil or who have toiled away in the coal mines of the lower levels.
Dear Berndt, is this another of those "in the good old days of hardbat" teasers?  😴

And what the hell are "player's intrinsic skills"?  I'm only aware of learned skills, and all of those learned skills are gained by holding a piece of equipment.  Which inevitably means that those skills are equipment specific; e.g. if I learn to chop with short pimples then what I learn will be different from what I would have acquired playing with antispin or LP or hardbat or inverted.  Those learned skills are only transferable to a limited degree - and watching Waldner playing hardbat is clear evidence of that.

Taking your purple prose out of it, I think there is something in what you say.  I certainly believe that doctoring rubber is a form of cheating, regardless of the nonsensical arguments that it requires greater skill to play with corrupted rubber than with sheets straight out of the packet.  But the bottom line is that players will cheat because they are convinced that they are inadequate without "an edge".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 1:23am
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/intrinsic

in·trin·sic

/inˈtrinzik/

adjective

1. belonging naturally; essential

I believe that it is possible to argue that the skills and techniques essential to successful play at the sport of table tennis, however one may choose to define or quantify that measure of success, may be inculcated in players through extensive practice and achieved without recourse to table tennis rubbers with exceptionally spinny or obstructive properties that in addition cannot be doctored or tampered with without rendering such rubber useless for successful competitive play. IF the only currently permissable rubber meeting these criteria proves to be that rubber which used to be known before the advent of long pimpled rubbers as short pimpled rubber without sponge, or "ordinary pimpled rubber", so be it.  Perhaps, Tassie52, you being an extremely clever fellow, can think of or come up with a viable alternative.

And of course one has to learn how to play table tennis skillfully with any type of rubber doctored or undoctored, including hard rubber (not advisable to doctor).  I'm not denying that.  But if you can think of a way to tamper with hard rubber in a manner so as to give it the same playing properties as Tenergy 80FX National Team (don't care which nation) or Hurricane 3 Neo National Team blue sponge or all of the TSP Curl long pipped rubbers, just drop me an e-mail through this forum.

Cheers,



Edited by berndt_mann - 08/05/2015 at 2:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 3:01am
You have to reach a goal at a time , in this moment need 3 things :

1 ) a secure method of detecting the booster

2 ) a safe method for the control of the minimum of friction

3 ) the extension of the minimum of friction for all rubber 
( do not understand why it was made ​​just for pimple ) For points 1 and 2 would not even change the rules but only to enforce the existing
one is therefore only a matter of will " policy " and would already be a big win for
the game .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 4:48am
Andras you could start your own post so more people could see what you are trying to do

and berndt I skim you unless the post is about hardbat
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 5:46am
Dear smackman,

Feel free to skim any post I write, unless of course about hardbat.  I do not read every post you write either.  I'm sure that your feelings are not hurt, and I assure you that neither are mine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 6:03am
(Tassie52)  ....Which inevitably means that those skills are equipment specific; e.g. if I learn to chop with short pimples then what I learn will be different from what I would have acquired playing with antispin or LP or hardbat or inverted.  Those learned skills are only transferable to a limited degree - and watching Waldner playing hardbat is clear evidence of that...

Which inevitably leads in my mind to ask why these skills should be equipment specific, or why any skill employed in any racquet sport should be dependent to any overly influential extent on the multiplicity of striking equipment available, doctored or not, to strike a ball or shuttlecock? 

You are correct, however, that some table tennis skills are, or at least seem to be, "equipment specific."  I have watched both Waldner and Joo Se Hyuk playing hardbat, and can attest that their learned skills with their sponge rubber rackets are hardly completely transferable when competing or playing for funsies against players whose learned skills have made the more successful transition from sponge play to hard rubber play.

(Tassie52)  But the bottom line is that players will cheat because they are convinced that they are inadequate without "an edge".

My.  A Perry Mason moment.  As convincing an argument for cheating as I have ever read.  The entire Chinese National Team inadequate without "an edge"?  Fang Bo a mere mortal without whatever booster he uses or comes built into whatever rubber he uses?  You are surely aware that the I do it because everybody else is doing it argument is not ethically sustainable.  It would be as ethically unusual to maintain that because you are a thief (I do not mean you specifically), and all of your cohorts are thieves, that thievery gives you a moral edge over working honestly for a living even if you do get caught.


Edited by berndt_mann - 08/05/2015 at 6:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 7:15am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

 ....Which inevitably means that those skills are equipment specific

Which inevitably leads in my mind to ask why these skills should be equipment specific
This is the disingenuous intro. to what you're really trying to say.  Of course skills are equipment specific.  Aussie Rules players can't kick a soccer ball to save their lives any more than Ronaldo can boot a Sherrin. Novak Djokovic would never win another pro tennis event if he was forced to use Roy Emerson's racquet. Let's see if Tiger Woods can drive 300 metres using a cricket bat.  

Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

or why any skill employed in any racquet sport should be dependent to any overly influential extent on the multiplicity of striking equipment available, doctored or not, to strike a ball or shuttlecock?
And this is what you really want to say, isn't it, Berndt?  You cannot reconcile yourself to the fact that we're using 21st century technology when you believe we should still be living in the 1950s.  The "overly influential extent" you so lament is, of course, another person's bread and butter.  It's all about preferences.  There is no Commandment that says, "Thou shalt all use hardbat".

Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

But the bottom line is that players will cheat because they are convinced that they are inadequate without "an edge".
The entire Chinese National Team inadequate without "an edge"?  Fang Bo a mere mortal without whatever booster he uses or comes built into whatever rubber he uses?
Word games, Berndt.  If the "entire CNT" are boosting their rubbers then it can only be because they believe it gives them some advantage over playing with unboosted rubber.  That is, their performances would be inadequate.  (And the last time I checked, Fang Bo was a mere mortal.  I'm fairly confident that he will die sometime in the next 90 years.)

Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

You are surely aware that the I do it because everybody else is doing it argument is not ethically sustainable.  It would be as ethically unusual to maintain that because you are a thief (I do not mean you specifically), and all of your cohorts are thieves, that thievery gives you a moral edge over working honestly for a living even if you do get caught.
Berndt, you're not putting words in my mouth, are you?  Surely you don't think that I condone the "he did it first" line of justification for cheating?  I'm pretty much on record declaring that cheating is cheating regardless of who is doing it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 8:19am
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

Andras you could start your own post so more people could see what you are trying to do

and berndt I skim you unless the post is about hardbat


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 12:36pm
The examples you gave are different sports, or same sport different era, so I don't think they are good examples. Of course Tiger can't drive 300 m with a cricket, because he ain't a cricket player. The question is if he can drive 300 m with some other top golf pro's equipment? I know nothing about golf but I think the answer should be Yes?

The same goes for Djokovic using Federer's racket. Pretty sure he can win another grand slam with that?

Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

 ....Which inevitably means that those skills are equipment specific

Which inevitably leads in my mind to ask why these skills should be equipment specific
This is the disingenuous intro. to what you're really trying to say.  Of course skills are equipment specific.  Aussie Rules players can't kick a soccer ball to save their lives any more than Ronaldo can boot a Sherrin. Novak Djokovic would never win another pro tennis event if he was forced to use Roy Emerson's racquet. Let's see if Tiger Woods can drive 300 metres using a cricket bat.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Victor_the_cleaner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 1:37pm
This guys is a very different player than Pushblocker, and much more skilled. I have very little doubt he would have won with any rubber. His belly was a big handicap, but I can see he has great touch and his FH is just nasty. Pushblocker has no FH at all and relies totally on confusion and misjudgement of the spin. Very different that this dude. This dude's got great touch man, short stop, long in the corner, knuckle ball, and what about the serve? That serve was nasty for a non pro. Pushblocker's serve is like nothing. This guys is really good, and this argument about the rubber really pulled the thread in the wrong direction. It really doesn't matter if he treated the rubber at all, as it doesn't matter if you comply with an arbitrary idiotic decision by a corrupt bureaucracy. There is absolutely nothing immoral in that, and certainly nothing illegal, as there is no international or domestic law that refers to properties of TT rubber. Thats just the truth, and mind you I hate choppers, and I think 'boosting' is a fancy label that people use for the otherwise stupid action of reducing the density of a rubber. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

... There is absolutely nothing immoral in that, and certainly nothing illegal, as there is no international or domestic law that refers to properties of TT rubber. ...  

There are international and national laws that say you are not allowed to alter the rubber.

2.4.7 The racket covering shall be used without any physical, chemical or other treatment. 

Proving that the rubber is or isn't altered is problematic, but it remains that altering it is illegal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 4:14pm
(Tassie52)  This is the disingenuous intro. to what you're really trying to say.  Of course skills are equipment specific.  Aussie Rules players can't kick a soccer ball to save their lives any more than Ronaldo can boot a Sherrin. Novak Djokovic would never win another pro tennis event if he was forced to use Roy Emerson's racquet. Let's see if Tiger Woods can drive 300 metres using a cricket bat.

Apples and oranges, Tassie52.  True but irrelevant, Tassie52.  You know as well as I that I was talking specifically about table tennis players using today's table tennis equipment.  Table tennis players need not be able to kick a soccer ball, boot a Sherrin, use Roy Emerson's racquet, or hit a golf ball 300 meters using a cricket bat.  Disingenuous, Tassie52, as is your claim to divine what I am really trying to say.

(Tassie52)  And this is what you really want to say, isn't it, Berndt?  You cannot reconcile yourself to the fact that we're using 21st century technology when you believe we should still be living in the 1950s.  The "overly influential extent" you so lament is, of course, another person's bread and butter.  It's all about preferences.  There is no Commandment that says, "Thou shalt all use hardbat".

I stopped living in the 1950s as of January 1st, 1960.  And it's not all about bread and butter or preferences.  It's about whether altering table tennis rubbers is ethical and what if anything can or should be done about that. 

No, there is no Commandment that says, "Thou shalt all use hardbat."  If you can think of another way to make table tennis fairer and more honest please do so.  So far you have, despite decrying cheating, yet to propose an alternative solution.


Edited by berndt_mann - 08/05/2015 at 4:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 5:14pm
if the player in the video has good skills I (and I am not strong) game as Ma Long.
I work because his forehand pulls the ball returning after a block with his
irregular rubber and the ball is easy but really easy for kill loop.
Its services (probably his best shot) is all top-side spin  function because it blocks the ball back with his rubber irregular.
Without that rubber he does not win a game against players much weaker than those seen in the video exactly as the Dott. neubauer  would not win any title veterans. IMHO

In addition, the opponent has many disadvantages:
It can not serve because it would return a ball side spin very difficult to play.
can not serve short because the rubber with the strong push.
It can serve not only spin or slight back spin long to get back a playable ball to the player who receives it is a huge advantage.
If your opponent makes a top spin and he blocks with the irregular rubber ball that will return the will be impossible to another top spin only be placed in the other side of the camp, I player using the rubber irregular know and prepares shot (kill loops) with great anticipation.
If the player plays with inverted rubber side-top spin or side ----- back spin the ball back is very difficult to manage.
The player with the rubber when irregular blocks a topspin does not need to change the angle of the racket according to the spin coming just to put the rubber ball in front of his block will be almost impossible for his opponent to make another top spin without going to the network even if his shot will be high on the table

I can go on for several pages to write down all the inconsistencies of this type of tires
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 5:43pm
This is becoming too big of a discussion and way out of the original thread.....Nonsenses coming out of enviousness

Edited by Kolev - 08/05/2015 at 5:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurokami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 5:51pm
755 is legal. our kid choppers use 755. it's mixed half-long pips. so you can play both SP hits and LP chop though not as strong with either. they played US Open up to 2200 no problem.

those guys don't play LP well. it's not really the rubber. we have kids here who practice vs LP all the time and they will basically never miss from the underspin going into the net.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:


Without that rubber he does not win a game against players much weaker than those seen in the video exactly as the Dott. neubauer  would not win any title veterans. IMHO


You can say the same thing about the opponent using spinny inverted.  Take it away and his chances of winning diminish greatly.

Change any player's rubber drastically and their ability to win is likely to drop dramatically.  How else can a 1900-is hardbat player like myself defeat a younger, better, and clearly superior 2700 level player? 

Larry Hodges used to routinely defeat sub-2000 level players using a clipboard for a paddle. That doesn't mean that a bare piece of pressboard is inherently a better playing surface or inherently unfair.  It just means Larry is skilled in using it and most sub-2000 level players aren't generally skilled or clever enough to deal with it well.


 




Edited by wturber - 08/05/2015 at 7:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2015 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

if anyone is interested to join or adhere to their society campaign can send an email to : [email protected]
and will receive material and information about it.
If the long pips player altered his rubber, maybe it is because he's tired of playing against all the boosted rubbers.


Edited by wturber - 08/05/2015 at 7:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2015 at 2:26am
LOLLOL
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

if anyone is interested to join or adhere to their society campaign can send an email to : [email protected]
and will receive material and information about it.
If the long pips player altered his rubber, maybe it is because he's tired of playing against all the boosted rubbers.


LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

Me cheater because people cheater very impressive !!!!!DeadDeadDead
Table tennis is very good sportOuchOuchOuchOuchOuch

If you read we wont stop ALL cheaters NOT only the long pimple player.
If people cheaters need stop the cheaters not  compensate for cheating betterClap


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Victor_the_cleaner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2015 at 11:56am
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

... There is absolutely nothing immoral in that, and certainly nothing illegal, as there is no international or domestic law that refers to properties of TT rubber. ...  

There are international and national laws that say you are not allowed to alter the rubber.

2.4.7 The racket covering shall be used without any physical, chemical or other treatment. 

Proving that the rubber is or isn't altered is problematic, but it remains that altering it is illegal.
wturber, this is not a law, as the governments have monopolized that area. ITTF creates arbitrary, I would say, rules for the game of table tennis. This is not a law and nobody will go to jail or get fined for treating rubber with stuff. People have developed a fetish to those rules and call them law. Here is a new law, I am writing it right now:
#1. Thau shall not make idiotic table tennis rules!
Is that law now? But it has the same legal strength as the entire ITTF rulebook. 
Breaking stupid table tennis rules is not only immoral, but sometimes necessary. People should not blindly follow authority, no matter who the authority. Remember, even the US government used to think that it is OK to own other human beings as property and more recently to put its own citizens in concentration camps. 
All government bodies are made of corrupt and incompetent humans who always pursue their personal interests first. People need to wake up and sniff the roses and protest when they see something stinks. Remember the Nuremberg Trials. People were post factum convicted for not only following the law but taking explicit orders. 
Accepting everything that ITTF throws at us only emboldens them to further and further pursuing monetizing the sport. We can soon be playing with 50 mm ball in 5 point games with a 1 foot net. They don't care. Whatever will bring more money from audience and TV rights, that will be the next law.
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