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    Posted: 08/09/2015 at 11:49am
What are the best cardio exercises to build endurance for the legs, specifically the quads and calves? Those are the two muscles that tired the quickest for me.

I've heard skipping could be good for the calves.
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walk up stairs or hills - very helpful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2015 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

walk up stairs or hills - very helpful.


True, but not much beats cycling especially if you practice sprints and/or vigorous hillclimbs.
I've never met a TT-cyclist who had any endurance issues.


Edited by Tinykin - 08/09/2015 at 12:28pm
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Plain long-distance jogging.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crackfst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2015 at 3:39pm
jogging is very ineffective(no real leg training it's just cardio). by far the best one i can recommend is hill or stair sprints
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you must be kidding ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2015 at 4:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2015 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

walk up stairs or hills - very helpful.


True, but not much beats cycling especially if you practice sprints and/or vigorous hillclimbs.
I've never met a TT-cyclist who had any endurance issues.
In addition to your point, an exercise bike with an adjustable resistance level for the average person is a much better workout than actually cycling outdoors, as you will be working your legs harder unless you are cycling at extremely high speeds outdoors, where resistance is increased.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2015 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

In addition to your point, an exercise bike with an adjustable resistance level for the average person is a much better workout than actually cycling outdoors, as you will be working your legs harder unless you are cycling at extremely high speeds outdoors, where resistance is increased.

Or uphill.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2015 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

In addition to your point, an exercise bike with an adjustable resistance level for the average person is a much better workout than actually cycling outdoors, as you will be working your legs harder unless you are cycling at extremely high speeds outdoors, where resistance is increased.


Or uphill.



Like I said, average. But uphill always helps if you are referring to the point I made about speed increasing resistance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2015 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

In addition to your point, an exercise bike with an adjustable resistance level for the average person is a much better workout than actually cycling outdoors, as you will be working your legs harder unless you are cycling at extremely high speeds outdoors, where resistance is increased.


Or uphill.


Like I said, average. But uphill always helps if you are referring to the point I made about speed increasing resistance.
Yes.  "Uphill" provides the resistance instead of speed/wind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2015 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

In addition to your point, an exercise bike with an adjustable resistance level for the average person is a much better workout than actually cycling outdoors, as you will be working your legs harder unless you are cycling at extremely high speeds outdoors, where resistance is increased.


Or uphill.


Like I said, average. But uphill always helps if you are referring to the point I made about speed increasing resistance.

Yes.  "Uphill" provides the resistance instead of speed/wind.

Surely the resistive forces would be higher at a higher speed, limiting the cyclist to a terminal velocity and eventually to a slowdown though?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2015 at 12:49am
Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

walk up stairs or hills - very helpful.


True, but not much beats cycling especially if you practice sprints and/or vigorous hillclimbs.
I've never met a TT-cyclist who had any endurance issues.

I'm hesitant to recommend cycling for purposes of improving table tennis, even though I very much enjoy cycling anyway.  I have a couple of friends that are former professional racing cyclists and they both still have exceptionally strong legs.  That is, I find that their motion for small footwork to be inefficient.  That is, if you need someone to run down a ball 12 feet away, they'll both do great, but if you move the ball over 2 inches, they tend to lean rather than do the micro-footwork needed.

That said, I would recommend a mix of methods:

1) Cycling that includes hills and/or interval training (this is where you change your cadence).
2) Stair climbing, or jumping rope, or even elliptical machine (assuming you have an elliptical that requires a high leg lift or uses an inclined plane such as Percor).
3) Squats with weights.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2015 at 3:28am
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

 
Surely the resistive forces would be higher at a higher speed, limiting the cyclist to a terminal velocity and eventually to a slowdown though?

I'm riding up a 10% grade.  I have an 18% grade nearby if I need it. Note that my speed on the 10% section is around 6-7mph.  If I push a higher gear, I can increase the needed effort by a very large amount.  Larger than I can effectively push.

Dynamically, wind resistance is a bit different than hill climbing. I think you can make either work for you if you want.  That's why I said "or."  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2015 at 3:33am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

[
I'm hesitant to recommend cycling for purposes of improving table tennis, even though I very much enjoy cycling anyway.  I have a couple of friends that are former professional racing cyclists and they both still have exceptionally strong legs.  That is, I find that their motion for small footwork to be inefficient.  That is, if you need someone to run down a ball 12 feet away, they'll both do great, but if you move the ball over 2 inches, they tend to lean rather than do the micro-footwork needed.

That said, I would recommend a mix of methods:

1) Cycling that includes hills and/or interval training (this is where you change your cadence).
2) Stair climbing, or jumping rope, or even elliptical machine (assuming you have an elliptical that requires a high leg lift or uses an inclined plane such as Percor).
3) Squats with weights.


I agree.  You don't want to do only cycling.  After cycling I do a driving pitter-patter routine on my toes where you alternatively drive your right and then left foot as quickly as possible while in a semi-squat position.  Coach Li calls it "tippie-tap" (as near as I can understand what he's saying.)  The idea is to do this at a very high speed.   I think this helps with the small steps you are talking about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2015 at 9:10am
Dimitrij Ovtcharov recommends the barbell squats and I think they are fantastic!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2015 at 11:34am
Originally posted by ppgear ppgear wrote:

What are the best cardio exercises to build endurance for the legs, specifically the quads and calves? Those are the two muscles that tired the quickest for me.

I've heard skipping could be good for the calves.

table tennis multiball drills.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2015 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Dimitrij Ovtcharov recommends the barbell squats and I think they are fantastic!!

Heavy barbell squats literally saved my knee before it was too late and I'm not sure I'd still be playing table tennis without them.  Can you provide the source where Ovtcharov says he recommends barbell squats for TT players? I'd be interested to read it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2015 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Dimitrij Ovtcharov recommends the barbell squats and I think they are fantastic!!

Heavy barbell squats literally saved my knee before it was too late and I'm not sure I'd still be playing table tennis without them.  Can you provide the source where Ovtcharov says he recommends barbell squats for TT players? I'd be interested to read it.

That's not surprising - so long as good form is used and you don't train for maximum lift.  

One of the reasons I started doing hill climbs on the bike is for the out-of-the-seat climbing.  That workload,  is similar to doing heavy leg work such as squats.  I find the hill climbs are therapeutic for my knees. 

Ichiro Ogimura was fond of leg work as well.
"To combat a multi-time World Champion like England’s Richard Bergmann, “Ogimura knew he would have to arm himself with a devastating sponge smash that could kill a rally in one fell swoop. This required lower-body agility, so, in addition to his 10-kilometer runs in Inokashira Park, he began to frog-jump four kilometers while carrying a 40-kilogram dumbbell on his shoulders."



Edited by wturber - 08/10/2015 at 4:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2015 at 4:30pm
I've been doing squats - since I noticed I was terrible at bending my knees.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/11/2015 at 2:55pm
Running (for pure endurance) and skipping rope for the strength.
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