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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2015 at 6:36am
Seriously NL, you think it is too soon for him to do fh-bh switching, or randomly placed feeds to his FH?   He's not going to play a super athletic style, I agree, but the man wants to play, not just develop a perfect stroke for balls hit identically to the same spot. If you don't learn to adjust your swing and or your body to meet the ball under real conditions it is hard to adjust later. Take it from somebody who has spent 95% of his training time with a robot.

Maybe this video was only an example and he already gets plenty of live play, the video didn't say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2015 at 9:20am
Andy is a pretty aggressive learner and he has been doing varied drills in lessons with coaches.   His condition and fitness level haven't helped him move easily, and my view is that in general, he has tried to hit the ball too hard and fast early and therefore hasn't developed a feel for ball control or grooved a proper stroke outside of bounded practice. On the other hand, he hasn't been playing that long either and we all do this stuff a bit differently so maybe he will pick up ball control later.

It's hard to break the addiction to hitting the ball hard once it sets in. I wish I knew how to break it smoothly in adult learners.

When asked to move, unless you have a good stroke and are ready for it, the first things that tend to fall apart are the body rotation and the backswing. So my preference is that someone have their stroke/timing at a decent level before building in movement.

Where I may agree with you is if the coach had him move pretty slowly so he could do the footwork correctly at his own pace and build in the right backswing elements consistently. But he does his multiball at a far faster pace than I ever have. It might explain my issues but I am also sure the pace explains some of his. I have seen 2700 players hit to kids at his level and you would be amazed at how slow they go with the kids on multiball. But we all want to be good yesterday, but fail to realize that rushing hurts us more than it helps.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2015 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

It looks like a good shot, but I think Andy needs to start adding movement right away. If his robot has a random feature that would work, or find a partner to train with. Because grooving strokes with a robot past a certain point can be detrimental to actual gameplay. Movement would also show up the stance deficiencies you mentioned.

BRS, there is footage of Andy training footwork on his channel. 

There are some considerations here. First of all, does Andy know how to move? Then does he know how to swing and move at the same time? If someone is moving and then playing their shot after they move, the timing can be even worse and they won't have time to do that in a match regardless. If they are using poor footwork, they may be cementing bad habits there. 

In Korea, they make you do hours of shadow footwork early on, so you know how to move when you get to the table. It's a very interesting approach and probably a good one. In the West, people (especially kids) would be more reluctant to spend a few weeks just doing shadow play.

I finished part 31 of LTT yesterday, but haven't posted it on ttEDGE yet. Incidentally, It's about your forehand pivot footwork during match play. You have some work to do there.

Cheers,
Brett


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2015 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Seriously NL, you think it is too soon for him to do fh-bh switching, or randomly placed feeds to his FH?   He's not going to play a super athletic style, I agree, but the man wants to play, not just develop a perfect stroke for balls hit identically to the same spot. If you don't learn to adjust your swing and or your body to meet the ball under real conditions it is hard to adjust later. Take it from somebody who has spent 95% of his training time with a robot.

Maybe this video was only an example and he already gets plenty of live play, the video didn't say.

BRS, training with a robot 95% of the time isn't optimal and has a lot of issues. Training with a robot 30% of the time is more realistic. But when you started out, your shots weren't the best, now you can play proper strokes on both sides. Yes, we have to translate this into match play however it will take time.

NextLevel is talking a lot of sense imo, but I have an open mind towards this topic as well. I said I am a fan of the Korean strategy as I've seen results myself.

Anyway, we have recently moved more towards footwork in LTT and let's do more. If you don't have access to partners, we should think creatively about how to improve your footwork. For example, pivot and cross footwork combos and more shadow play. Let me work on it.

Cheers,
Brett
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2015 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Brett Clarke Brett Clarke wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Seriously NL, you think it is too soon for him to do fh-bh switching, or randomly placed feeds to his FH?   He's not going to play a super athletic style, I agree, but the man wants to play, not just develop a perfect stroke for balls hit identically to the same spot. If you don't learn to adjust your swing and or your body to meet the ball under real conditions it is hard to adjust later. Take it from somebody who has spent 95% of his training time with a robot.

Maybe this video was only an example and he already gets plenty of live play, the video didn't say.

BRS, training with a robot 95% of the time isn't optimal and has a lot of issues. Training with a robot 30% of the time is more realistic. But when you started out, your shots weren't the best, now you can play proper strokes on both sides. Yes, we have to translate this into match play however it will take time.

NextLevel is talking a lot of sense imo, but I have an open mind towards this topic as well. I said I am a fan of the Korean strategy as I've seen results myself.

Anyway, we have recently moved more towards footwork in LTT and let's do more. If you don't have access to partners, we should think creatively about how to improve your footwork. For example, pivot and cross footwork combos and more shadow play. Let me work on it.

Cheers,
Brett


To clarify, when you say the Korean strategy, are you referring to drilling to death?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2015 at 1:58pm
In his prior post, Brett said that Koreans do footwork off the table without hitting balls for weeks/months before learning how to move at the table. This makes them move better when asked to do footwork drills with their strokes later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2015 at 3:56pm
modern robots are a must in the U.S. given the small number of active players at any level.  The problem for many players in areas that lack nearby clubs is finding suitable coaching and challenging players yet in an area like the San Francisco Bay the issue now is that with so many clubs forming the number of players per club is decreasing further limiting coaching and player options.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/16/2015 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

Originally posted by Brett Clarke Brett Clarke wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Seriously NL, you think it is too soon for him to do fh-bh switching, or randomly placed feeds to his FH?   He's not going to play a super athletic style, I agree, but the man wants to play, not just develop a perfect stroke for balls hit identically to the same spot. If you don't learn to adjust your swing and or your body to meet the ball under real conditions it is hard to adjust later. Take it from somebody who has spent 95% of his training time with a robot.

Maybe this video was only an example and he already gets plenty of live play, the video didn't say.

BRS, training with a robot 95% of the time isn't optimal and has a lot of issues. Training with a robot 30% of the time is more realistic. But when you started out, your shots weren't the best, now you can play proper strokes on both sides. Yes, we have to translate this into match play however it will take time.

NextLevel is talking a lot of sense imo, but I have an open mind towards this topic as well. I said I am a fan of the Korean strategy as I've seen results myself.

Anyway, we have recently moved more towards footwork in LTT and let's do more. If you don't have access to partners, we should think creatively about how to improve your footwork. For example, pivot and cross footwork combos and more shadow play. Let me work on it.

Cheers,
Brett


To clarify, when you say the Korean strategy, are you referring to drilling to death?

As NL said, I was referring to off-table footwork training when starting out. But yes, they drill the players to death, even when doing the footwork training. It can be 8 hours a day with punishment for failing to bend the knees enough.

It's a different topic, but drilling players to death is interesting too. Some players react well to it and most react poorly to it. I think one of the attributes of a good coach is the ability to know how to train different players, depending on their mental makeup.

Cheers,
Brett
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2015 at 4:41pm
A great way to improve your strokes is to use shadow-swinging as there is no pressure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2015 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I know a table tennis guru who uses a golf club to emphasize the mechanics of the forehand and underline how smoothness is important; I need to remember where I saw that.


I hear he is Australian too. What do they know about table tennis?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2015 at 6:25pm
FYI, all Australians know about kangaroos and table tennis technique. 

Here, watch the stupid video instead 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2015 at 6:41pm
"If you get it wrong, the club won't swing and you'll know it..." - Brilliant!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2015 at 7:05pm
Why is it when I watch a video I've watched before...I see yet more technique details? I think it's because these techniques are not easy and it takes me time to build off of more simple, less correct versions of the technique. In this example I am seeing much more on how the wrist quickly moves the paddle into a closed racket angle. Right now my angle stays closed for the whole shot and I'm missing out on a good amount of wrist action (not all as my wrist currently is loose enough to go side to side).

This constant new discoveries on the same content is to the point where perhaps Brett should continue to make videos of topics already covered but with new footage. This is what most magazines do. How many new top 10 tips for losing weight can possibly go into a magazine?

My club mates have complimented me on the loop with things like "that's a weapon now!", "you get some good pop on that forehand", "before all you did was backhand and now [forehand loop motion & smile]".

However I'm watching these silly videos again and smile...there's more power (and consistency) to be had!

It's getting to the point where I'm basically a TTedge fanboi and the mods might be thinking I'm an advertisement disguised as a lower level player.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boliao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2015 at 8:53pm
That's why we keep hearing "Practise, Practise, Practise".
With improvement comes appreciation of the finer details.
Sometimes I can still hear echoes of "loop like the bear" ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2015 at 11:18pm
The forehand really looks good, considering the guys backhand is his smoking shot.  I feel more comfortable just smashing flat into those by putting my body into them.  

I do understand the feeling that there is a lot of safety in those long strokes when you can afford the time.  I couldn't do it at all right now with any consistency.  I would certainly call it an advanced stroke and a low percentage shot for the guys I play with.

I don't know, it's hard for me to envision a flat hit not being the best option for a ball that high and spinny.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2015 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by Brett Clarke Brett Clarke wrote:

A great way to improve your strokes is to use shadow-swinging as there is no pressure.

The one thing I will say for Andy is that his shadow training as improved the general waist rotation and body turn and made it feel more natural for him to do while swinging.  Even as the stroke being grooved was imperfect, the physical effects on his hip/waist/core/shoulder rotation were great for him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2015 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

The forehand really looks good, considering the guys backhand is his smoking shot.  I feel more comfortable just smashing flat into those by putting my body into them.  

I do understand the feeling that there is a lot of safety in those long strokes when you can afford the time.  I couldn't do it at all right now with any consistency.  I would certainly call it an advanced stroke and a low percentage shot for the guys I play with.

I don't know, it's hard for me to envision a flat hit not being the best option for a ball that high and spinny.  

Flat hitting/smashing against topspin has gone out of table tennis as counterspinning has proven to have better risk to reward in general. At an elite level, it's actually quite rare to see anyone smashing anything but a lob these days . 

I do understand that a flat hit may still be the best option if one doesn't have the time or environment to practise counterspinning. It can however be surprising how quickly you can make the change if you are prepared to put in a few hours and make a few errors during the transition.


Edited by Brett Clarke - 09/18/2015 at 3:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2015 at 4:17pm
Right now if I'm close to the table I tend to counter (flat hit) a very spinny top spin. This is even more true if it has side spin. For me this just presents more of the face of the paddle and reduces my errors. I just don't feel like I have time for most of the balls to prepare a loop - this might change eventually.

A step away from the table I find the flat hit pretty ineffective - the need to apply spin and power becomes more important. Plus with the added time I feel I can execute this shot with a good chance of winning the point (at my current level).

Does it eventually just turn into looping everything all the time? That was my friend's advice - "just loop everything".


Edited by wilkinru - 09/18/2015 at 4:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2015 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

Right now if I'm close to the table I tend to counter (flat hit) a very spinny top spin. This is even more true if it has side spin. For me this just presents more of the face of the paddle and reduces my errors. I just don't feel like I have time for most of the balls to prepare a loop - this might change eventually.

A step away from the table I find the flat hit pretty ineffective - the need to apply spin and power becomes more important. Plus with the added time I feel I can execute this shot with a good chance of winning the point (at my current level).

Does it eventually just turn into looping everything all the time? That was my friend's advice - "just loop everything".

Hey wilkinru, when people have trouble counterspinning from close to the table, it's often because they don't bend their knees enough. Check out how low Ma Lin is when making a counterspin at the table. 

Next time you try it, bend you knees as much as you can and just see how different the shot feels.

It's almost at the point now where top players are just topspinning everything on the forehand.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2015 at 4:30pm

Here is an analysis of NextLevel's forehand block.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2015 at 4:40pm
Guys, as you can see, I am still learning to move and counterspin so take it easy on me...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2015 at 6:45pm
I do the exact same thing when blocking NL.

Heck lately I've been caught with really slow balls that I expected to have to block at my shoulder and have been "counter" hitting them like that over the table. It is the most physically demanding shot - I have to get as low as possible and absolutely muscle the ball. Punishment for not doing a correct shot!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2015 at 12:56am
Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

I do the exact same thing when blocking NL.

Heck lately I've been caught with really slow balls that I expected to have to block at my shoulder and have been "counter" hitting them like that over the table. It is the most physically demanding shot - I have to get as low as possible and absolutely muscle the ball. Punishment for not doing a correct shot!

Yeah, I started out that way.  IT looks amazing when it works.  Unfortunately, unless you use pips or something to slow down the ball, as the loopers get stronger, it gets harder to block like that.  If you take the ball that early, enjoy it while it lasts because at a certain level, it becomes almost impossible.


Edited by NextLevel - 09/20/2015 at 12:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coach K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2015 at 11:12pm
Coach C,

I love your point at the end of the video about establishing neural pathways. I am planning on devising a revolutionary system of improvement based on this - could you share your thoughts about some ideas I have planned for off-the-table training? This includes not only shadow stroking, but devices such as sitting at our computers with our feet in ready position, perhaps even sacrificing the chair to stand in the ready position and build leg/core strength, and holding our forks at dinner in the grip of a neutral racket hold. While this surely is NOT meant to be a substitute for training, I've always believed that small adjustments like this could make just the slightest difference, and anybody will a competitive edge will be sure to do so.

-Coach K
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2015 at 12:47am
Originally posted by Coach K Coach K wrote:

Coach C,

I love your point at the end of the video about establishing neural pathways. I am planning on devising a revolutionary system of improvement based on this - could you share your thoughts about some ideas I have planned for off-the-table training? This includes not only shadow stroking, but devices such as sitting at our computers with our feet in ready position, perhaps even sacrificing the chair to stand in the ready position and build leg/core strength, and holding our forks at dinner in the grip of a neutral racket hold. While this surely is NOT meant to be a substitute for training, I've always believed that small adjustments like this could make just the slightest difference, and anybody will a competitive edge will be sure to do so.

-Coach K

If you have shown the efficacy of your program on students, I am sure it will have many followers.  Brett taught me the reverse serve using frisbee tossing as a pedagogic device, so I know such methods have potential.  Feel free to share the result of your work with students.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2015 at 3:05pm
Watch NextLevel battling with forehand cross footwork. He gets off to a slow start and then owns it by the end.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2015 at 3:18pm
I told you guys I was finally going to do footwork... My strokes are being wasted without it...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/24/2015 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

I told you guys I was finally going to do footwork... My strokes are being wasted without it...

NextLevel, Can we please see you doing some Pivot Forehands, as per this video?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/24/2015 at 11:55pm
I do it a lot already, Brett. I am not sure that it belongs in my game and I think I overdo it. But if you take apart my current pivot in private, I might be motivated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2016 at 5:59am
Here is my latest video in this series with NextLevel.




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