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Loop-kill v block (followup) |
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mjamja
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Posted: 11/26/2015 at 2:38am |
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First, let me thank all of you who contributed suggestions to the original thread. I really appreciate the help. Secondly, I am sorry to say that I was not able to get any good video from tonight's session, but I will try again on Friday. I was able to try out several of your suggestions. One of the things I did notice on the video I took was that my "normal loop" stroke was more vertical than it really needed to be against block. When I flattened out the swing plane I got a lower and faster loop with less swing speed and kept about the same amount of spin by having my blade more closed at contact. With the more vertical swing I had actually been opening the blade up as I came forward, but with the flatter swing plane I could keep the more closed angle that I set originally in the backswing. For reference lets call this slower swing speed, flatter swing plane, more closed blade stroke the "improved normal loop". So the first thing I tried was swinging faster with maybe just a little flatter swing plane than the "improved normal loop". Almost immediately I had the ball flight I had been looking for: much faster, a flatter overall trajectory but with a very quick dip down near the end of the table and a low bounce that dipped again as it left the table. I was doing a drill with two loops and then a loop-kill. Multiple times the loop-kill went right under my opponents paddle because of the low trajectory and re-dip after the bounce. I even got the much louder "whack" sound at contact. The next thing I tried was really throwing my weight forward as I hit. This was really a disaster. I started miss-hitting the ball and missed most of the shots even when I did make reasonable contact. I think that by swinging harder and flattening out the swing plane I had already added quite a bit of forward weight transfer. When I tried to add even more it actually made me off-balance. I will work on this more and see if I can find a way to get more weight transfer without getting off balance and see if that helps me pick up any more ball speed. But right now I am pretty happy with the speed I am getting without "extra" weight transfer. The next thing I tried was the open blade method with lots of vertical motion from elbow snap right at contact. It took a little bit to find the right combination of swing plane and timing. But finally I started landing shoots regularly. I got about the same speed ball as with the other method, but I do not think I got nearly the spin. The trajectory was more like my regular loop, lacked that sudden dip at the end, bounced higher, and did not re-dip as it came off the table. It felt like I was hitting a "counter on steroids" shot. Same basic idea as the counter but with much faster body rotation, faster arm speed, and much faster and bigger snap at the elbow at contact. The biggest difference from what I had been doing was using an almost flat swing plane and generating all the spin with the elbow snap instead of trying to generate a lot of spin with an upward swing that grazed the ball. With that upward swing with a neutral blade I either made too solid of contact and hit long with no spin or got the spin with the grazing contact and lost most of the ball speed often resulting in hits into the net. This "counter on steroids" shot reminded me of the shots the other players at the club use to hit balls past me. The method with the closed blade reminded me of the shots that the 2100-2300 level players hit past me and the shots the coach was demonstrating to me during my lesson. It was a productive night. I do not know if I can take any of this into a game. But at least now I have finally executed the type of shot I want to hit and have a basic concept of how I did it. Lots of practice still needed. I will not go as far to say that I see the light at the end of the tunnel, but finally I am at least able to see the tunnel. Thanks again to all of you who contributed. Mark |
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MLfan
Super Member Joined: 04/23/2015 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 486 |
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Loop with an open racket angle!
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2895 |
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Looping against blocks (which have light topspin) even with a neutral blade angle just does not seem to work for me. By neutral I mean blade face is perpendicular to the floor. I seem to have best results when I try to use blade face at 45 deg angle to the floor. In fairness, I do not know the angle with which I am actually hitting the ball. It could be 45 - 70, but it is a closed blade.. Thinking 45 deg blade seems to get me the best results. MLFan, - When you say loop with an open blade are you meaning the Fh blade face is actually pointing slightly toward the ceiling at contact.? If so then it would seem that would mean I have to make contact with the bottom quarter of the ball. Doing that is contrary to what I have read, have been taught, and have seen when hitting against topspin. Mark |
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mickd
Forum Moderator Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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MLfan might be referring to a pure loop stroke, and not the 'loop-kill'. By the way, is there a proper term for that? The term they use in Japanese translated would be 'loop-drive'.
One thing you might be able to try is brushing the ball quicker on the top of the ball when using weight transfer. If your shots are going off the table due to the extra power added from the transfer, the extra spin might bring it back on the table. This way you can get a faster ball with more spin. I'm just theory crafting though! |
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2895 |
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That is exactly what I did that worked best. Faster swing, kept the blade closed, and flatter swing plane. That did put me more on top of the ball (relative to my old loop) and the much faster swing seemed to produce more topspin and more speed than the old loop. I think doing that also produced more forward weight transfer without thinking about doing it. When I tried to "force" the weight transfer everything about my swing just seemed to fall apart and I got real jerky. Still, doing what you describe got me a much faster shot and a trajectory I like. I may need more weight transfer to get even faster shots, but right now I am pretty happy with the speed I produced. Just have to practice enough to be able to produce the shot in game situations. Mark
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Hopper
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Funny thing I tried the same experiment as well last night.
Opening the bat to 45-50 degrees (on light topspin balls from opponent), required a kind of extra acceleration from the elbow at the moment of ball contact in order to prevent an additional drive impact on the ball resulting in overshooting the table. The resulting ball certainly has more power, but I'm not sure about the amount of spin. Felt good anyhow. For sure I continue exploring this concept in the near future. Edited by Hopper - 11/27/2015 at 11:07am |
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MLfan
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Sorry, but "open" I meant around 70-80 degrees. This way, you are maximizing the surface area between the rubber and the ball during contact. This maximizes your consistency and accuracy. Also, obviously you can't maintain this "open" angle exactly the same throughout the stroke, otherwise the ball would fly past the table. The rubber needs to brush the ball along the outer edge of the ball (convex), and how much you do so depends on the height, spin, etc. of the incoming ball :)
If you loop the ball with a closed angle, sure you may be getting a bit more spin but the ball is also going to have much less power. The thing is quality loops are a combination between spin and power. The old style was to brush when you loop. Now it's a combination of hit and brush. There are really only two types of loops. One is the slower one, with more brushing, and the other is the loop that I've described above. The slower one is used when you're not in position, or when the ball has a lot of backspin (ie. from a chopper). Otherwise, you should play the other/regular loop most of the time. Hope it helps :)
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mjamja
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MLFfan, Thanks for the clarification. I will try to do some more experimentation next week and try again to get some video so I can see what I am actually doing instead of what I think I am doing. I will post again if I get the video. Mark
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mickd
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A video will help a lot in figuring out what's actually happening. Personally I think all of these threads should have a video. Take a video and just post it! :)
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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So I have a question.
MLFan is claiming that you should loop the ball with a more open racket angle in order to get more power (and not just spin like with a more closed angle). But in william henzells backhand loop versus block video, he claims we should loop with as closed an angle as possible, because we can get more FORWARDS MOTION on the ball. Is this true? EDIT: i would post the link to the spot where henzell claims thi, but im typing on my phone, and mytt is the worst forum in the world for typing on mobile. Really wish this forum was on tapatalk. Edited by Ringer84 - 11/29/2015 at 11:54am |
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MLfan
Super Member Joined: 04/23/2015 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 486 |
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I seem to recall that Henzell has a rather unimpressive forehand, especially when compared to his backhand. The info I'm giving you comes straight from the provincial team in China guys...
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Yes, William has a weak forehand for am international player. But Ma Long and Zhang Jike as far as I can see do not loop with open paddles and even with my terrible technique, I try to emulate Zhang Jike and his paddle starts out very closed and sweeps into the ball. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Spin83
Member Joined: 01/28/2013 Status: Offline Points: 95 |
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1. finally you admit he has weak forehand..people who know don't need chinese provincial team to tell them
2. you advised people on multiple occasion that emulating ZJK or Ma Long stroke is bad because you need to have chinese stroke..now you are trying the same 3. from the guy who played with Big Dipper which is chinese rubber you should know by now that the reason why they have closed angle is because you can't maximize spin with half open angle 4. nothing personal but you still need to study a lot..which is good..keeps you in mental shape 5. don't emulate zjk move, you don't have the physical ability to do so, find your own stroke..if it's brickster move it's brickster..make it lethal brickster! 6. don't reply this is not a discussion..just a reminder!
Edited by Spin83 - 11/29/2015 at 11:23pm |
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MLfan
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no they don't contact the ball very closed. It only appears that they do because they close the racket angle to keep the ball in the sponge. And they do so incredibly fast because the have the ability to do so. but whatever. I'm tired of this argument lol. For the last time, you contact the ball with a ~70 degree angle and close it afterward to keep the ball into the sponge!
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Spin83
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i know what you mean..not sure about the rest |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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My point is that the contact point changes depending on what you want to do to the ball and this idea that the racket angle needs to be open is fairly weird if what I am doing is in any way similar to what better players are doing. It may very well not be, but I have not seen this supposed 70 degree angle. The racket states out closed and opens up into the ball and can remain closed on some shots or open up more depending on where on the ball you need to contact to make your shot. It's quite possible too that I don't swing anything close to hard enough, and I get that too. But I can't see the racket angle you are talking about on any videos. I have more than enough video online of my looping and I do it mostly with my arm. What I do sometimes is just come round the side as much as possible to maximize contact exposure. But I would never call what I am doing looping with an open racket face. But it's quite possible that I have no clue what I am talking about. Edited by NextLevel - 11/30/2015 at 5:59am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
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I know that English is not your first language, but none of this is true. 1. I said in a response to you that William has been described as having "a top 10,000 forehand". And William says this himself. So how can I be "finally admitt(ing)" that his forehand is weak? 2. I have said that emulating pros in general can be bad for players especially those without coaching because you don't always know what is the core of the technique and what top players are supporting with the talent/athleticism. I actually don't directly emulate these players, but I know my use of just my arm (and NOTHING else) is an attempt to be similar to Zhang Jike and I also know that Ma Long does not loop in just one way. It has nothing to do with whether anyone is Chinese or European etc. 3. I don't think you understand what this discussion is about. 4. You don't have your stroke on camera for the world to see, and when I saw it, it was a good stroke, but nothing that would make me feel my technique isn't better, even with my arthritis. 5. You are just trolling because you can. 6. When you learn to read and write truthful English and stop misrepresenting me, I will consider it.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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just my 2 cents - I have started to play with H3 recently (mostly as a training tool - but could be more - will see how that goes) so I am somewhat interest in this thread because of ML Fan's statements about the loop in particular to Chinese rubber. I see the angles for ZJK and ML closer to 45% (against block) than 70% (or 0%) in the videos but I would have to get a confirmation on what applies to H3 (as videos are sometimes unclear on exact angles)
Edited by tom - 11/30/2015 at 9:53am |
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Spin83
Member Joined: 01/28/2013 Status: Offline Points: 95 |
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You don't know how to hold a racket correctly, and you gonna talk to others about how to make a stroke.
Insulting people on language basis just shows what kind of person you are. Your arthritis is not your biggest handicap. Edited by Spin83 - 11/30/2015 at 11:45am |
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NextLevel
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Yeah, neither does Danny Seemiller and he was once ranked top 30 in the world. I am a known quantity and at this point, unless you put your name or your game in the public domain, I suggest you stop harassing me. You insult players but you have nothing to show that you are anything more than a crank. I have only been playing seriously for 4 years. If you want to continue to pretend that you know more simply because you started training as a child and can't even seriously play at whatever level you really consider yourself to truly be, go ahead. Edited by NextLevel - 11/30/2015 at 12:34pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
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There is no single racket angle for looping the ball. At the higher levels where there is a heavy emphasis on power looping, you can still see that pros (and I can show many videos) are largely looping with closed or somewhat racket angles but they are also adjusting their contact points on the ball to compensate for the incoming spin. But since you are not going to swing half as hard as those guys do consistently, why not just figure out what works for you and stick with it? This weekend, every time I watched a higher level match, I looked at my game and asked myself whether I was playing table tennis. I could only watch three players in my whole division play (one junior girl, one junior boy and one college adult penholder with a limited but powerful game) and feel that whenever I saw them, I could see what the guys in the first division were doing but at a lower level. I just wish someone could give me new knees again. Bring able to throw yourself with abandon behind that ball must be a huge thrill. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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tom
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NL, I want to confirm the angle because 70 degrees is contrary to my current view. I would like to verify his view for theory and possible experimentation. Of course if it might still doesn't work for me even if he is correct, but I like to save time in case he is not correct.
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NextLevel
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This is my understanding of "his view" when I do something like it. I start out by straightening my arm and looping the ball pretty hard. If the ball goes long, I come round the side of the ball more and more and keep trying to keep the trajectory fairly straight so my loop is more corkscrewy but still mostly topspin. That way, I expose a large surface area of my racket to the ball rather than trying to loop the ball from the back head on. But AFAIK, none of this is radically new. IF anyone can translate this video and find the 70 degree racket angle, that would be helpful for some. Edited by NextLevel - 11/30/2015 at 3:12pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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tom
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NL, interesting video but didn't MLF say 70 degrees for non down spin balls as well? This is the point I want to verify. This video discusses power loop against slight down spin. 70 degrees for a power loop against slight down spin with that degree of forwardness of the stroke should be verified as well, even though it is more plausible (than against top spin).
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NextLevel
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IF you loop, you know it is fairly ridiculous to try to hit the ball at the same exact contact point or with the same amount of power for every loop. Even when you loop kill an easy ball, you are mostly using the power of your motion to overpower or add spin to the ball rather than smash it. If a ball is high and you loop with 70 degrees, unless the ball has heavy backspin or you by some miracle swing so far around the side that you swing over it, you are going to loop it off the table. Even in those videos, I don't see 70 degrees. I see players adjusting their contact points and swings to incoming the ball to create whatever effect they have in mind.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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mjamja
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One of the things I noticed in several of the videos was the slight change in the angle of the racket from the point in the backswing when the racket starts forward to the point of contact. In almost every case I see the racket angle becoming less closed. In the past, I have been using the start of the forward swing as a reference for racket angle because in most regular speed videos that is the only point where I could see a clear view of the angle. I was trying to keep that same angle at contact. I think some of that change comes from the motion of the upper body in the pro players. They seem to bend slightly forward (downward) at the waist with the start of the backswing (or at least keep the forward bend they have in their ready position). As they swing forward they straighten up slightly ending up more straight up than their backswing position and even than their ready position. When I do that (slowly) I see the racket angle does become less closed between the end of backswing and the contact point. I, on the other hand, tend to have less bend forward in my ready position and to straighten up what little I have as I rotate back. As I swing forward my racket angle tends to stay more constant between the end of backswing and the contact point. Interesting that if I try to rotate too much in the backswing my left shoulder really dips down and the racket angle gets really closed. As I swing forward I return to the position with the left shoulder higher than the right and get quite a lot of racket angle change (blade angle becoming less closed) before contact. Way too detailed to actually think about when swinging. But, as NextLevel pointed out, it may explain why I need to think about my swing differently from the pros because I am doing extra things they don't do (or vice versa). Physics dictate that to get the same shot they do I need the same motions at contact. However, how I backswing or what angle I set initially may need to be different from the pro's because my mechanics are so different from theirs that I don't get to the contact point the same unless I do something slightly different before contact. Of course if I was young and getting regular coaching I would be trying harder to match "all" of the pro's mechanics. Just glued up my new Yinhe PD437 and hopefully I can do some testing, with video, tonight or tomorrow. Mark |
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Vlad0
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NextLevel keep in mind that there is a possibility after lets say 2-3 years (don't know how often you train) you to be ashamed from yourself for these "i know everything about this game" statements in almost every thread. There is a tendency as stronger a player become the more rarely he writes and vice versa, because you probably know about the circle - knowledge inside/lack of knowledge outside and what happens when it grows. Best regards |
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NextLevel
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Thanks, Vlad0. I do keep that in mind. I find more and more that there is very little I know about this sport, but what I have learned from working with people is that I know enough to help people (and have an idea when I am not/should not). The main difference between me and most players at my level is that most players at my level started much younger than I did and have less empathy with what someone who is older is struggling with. I do find it more important to be helpful than to be 100% right. Hope that helps you understand my attitude to posting. I never had daily training as a junior so most of what I learned came when I struggled to make sense of it. I can't do half the things my coaches want me to do. In fact, very soon, I may not be able to play at all. I do also notice that you, Victor_the_cleaner and Spin83 are likely all from Bulgaria but I don't dwell on it. What I will appreciate is your telling me that I don't have something correct and why. Believe it or not, I have learned a lot from thinking through what MLFan has posted and I don't think of it how he thinks of it but he makes a lot of sense, but needs to translate more of it to what lower level players do.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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