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backhand loop feedback |
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SlowMover 
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Joined: 09/13/2013 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 38 |
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 Topic: backhand loop feedbackPosted: 01/31/2016 at 10:03pm |
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Hey everyone. I've been playing once a week for a couple years and play a few tournaments a year, but really still consider myself a beginner as my rating is pretty low just getting close to 900 now.
I'm still developing my strokes and have been practicing backhand loop after being inspired by Brett Clarke's video on it. I think I've got my major problems fixed and just need to work on consistency and then once I have that I can add power. That said, I recorded a round with the robot to get feedback and make sure I don't groove any major mistakes that will be hard to undo later. It's mostly 3 minutes of the same stuff except when I went for a hard loop around 1:28. I'm so looking forward to adding this important tool to use during matches. I look forward to hearing your thoughts. -- appelgren allplay aurus aurus |
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mjamja
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Posted: 01/31/2016 at 11:06pm |
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The one thing that jumps out at me is that you are contacting the ball too far out in front of you. By the time the racket gets that far forward most of the wrist snap energy is gone and the blade angle tends to open up some so you lose some of the spin generation. One of the tips Stellan Bengston gave at his camp was about seeing where the Bh contact point should be. First, take your normal ready position (hitting elbow should be slightly out in front and a little away from the body out to the side). Now extend your non hitting arm out parallel to your hitting arm with both hands about the same distance forward. Take your backswing by bending the arm at the elbow. When the racket points at your non-hitting elbow that is where you should stop your backswing. Now move the racket forward by unbending the elbow until the racket points at your wrist. This should be your ball contact point. Of course you do not have to be precisely there on every shot, but you stay pretty close to those points with all of your Bh strokes. It also looks like you may be trying to stop the swing too soon after contact. TTedge videos make a point about extending your follow-through. Some people think they take it a little too far, but I think you could easily let the arm and racket continue on more to your right after contacting the ball without being in an extreme follow through. Not hitting the ball so far in front of you may automatically get you following through a little more to your right. Look closely at the TTedge videos and see if what I am describing makes sense to you. Mark
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Ringer84
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Posted: 01/31/2016 at 11:25pm |
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If you are trying to do a TTedge backhand, then you are in desperate need of a frisbee and some frisbee throws.
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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SlowMover
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Posted: 01/31/2016 at 11:41pm |
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Thanks Mark. Good call. I looked back at it in slow motion and I do see that I may be hitting it a bit too far in front. I will try again tomorrow and attempt to time it a bit later and see how it goes.
I'm trying to let the wrist fly out naturally on the follow through but I think I have some habit ingrained that is preventing it. |
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Ringer84
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Posted: 01/31/2016 at 11:51pm |
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It is difficult to use a later contact point and wait on the ball properly when the elbow is not in front of the wrist.
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/01/2016 at 5:06am |
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Hi, Slowmover. Your whole stroke is much too small and is all wrist. The contact is also flat and that is because the size of the stroke foes not allow you to brush the ball.
As Ringer pointed out, the motion for the backhand loop is similar to tossing a Frisbee. Do this and then you will have the right motion and understand the arm action required. Mark gave you an idea of what the backswing size should look like. It is a good guideline, though for many reasons, I dislike such specifications when teaching people strokes and it builds too much precision and too little feel. People who get the Frisbee tops motion tend to backhand loop pretty naturally as long as they stick their elbow well out. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Ringer84
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Posted: 02/01/2016 at 10:23am |
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OP, I made some gifs for you to use as a quick reference. They might be useful if you can get some video of your loop from side-on.  
Hopefully Brett won't mind me posting these gifs here. I don't think he will since they are from the publicly available video on YouTube.
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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benfb
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Posted: 02/01/2016 at 1:04pm |
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+1 Took the words right out of my mouth.
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V-Griper
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Posted: 02/01/2016 at 10:42pm |
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your arm and wrist are fine in general. What's missing is the synchronization between your upper torso/arm and your lower body. In order get a smooth kinetic chain you need to know what to do with your lower body and coordinate that with your arm. Higher level BHs utilize the the hip extension to generate power for the stroke. In your stroke i see that your hips/CG sometimes move in the opposite direction in which you trying to hit the ball. This makes the shot not very efficient. Note the your touch is actually pretty good as well as the timing of the arm and wrist, however without better coordination with the torso you wont't be able to get more power/spin.
Look at these vids, including the gif loops of BC, but ignore what the arm is doing and concentrate on what the torso is doing. What you are looking for is the opening and closing at the hip. Like you are going to sit down on a stool that somebody but a thumb tack on. That motion is the hip extension and is what needs to be synced with your arm and wrist. Note that Timo, who I can't think of a clearer example for this, does more of vertical hip extension in these vids but if you look at BC you will see it go more from left to right. Either way is fine. Edited by V-Griper - 02/01/2016 at 10:46pm |
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DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
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SlowMover
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Posted: 02/01/2016 at 11:29pm |
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Ringer, Fatt, NextLevel, Mark, and BenFB; thanks for your immense help. I can't believe I thought I was close to what I was aiming for
 . I didn't get too much time to work on it tonight but I did make a quick video update from a round with the robot based on your feedback, this time with the side view. I think I am closer to the video of Brett now although I'm sure there are still flaws. Let me know your thoughts. V-Griper, I appreciate what you are saying about the hips and I'm sure I was moving in the wrong direction as you pointed out. I'm really not trying to move the lower body much at all. Since I'm so new to this stroke and still inconsistent due to lack of reps, I'm starting out focusing on the arm and wrist, but will indeed add in more hips once I get just a bit more consistent. Thanks. |
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mjamja
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Posted: 02/02/2016 at 1:45am |
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The new video does look much better. Much closer to Brett's video. I think you should look at your initial (ready position) elbow position and how much the elbow moves during the stroke. In Brett's video (or in the GIF in the thread) the elbow starts out well forward of the body and then stays almost stationary during the stroke. Your elbow starts out more even with your body and then as you start the forward swing the elbow and your forearm move forward and slightly up before you are in position to start unbending the forearm. This means your timing is more complicated. This more forward elbow position is important in both the Fh stroke and the Bh stroke. TTedge even has a special video about this and calls it the "Golden Point". Stellan Bengtsson also placed a great deal of emphasis on this forward elbow position in the camp I attended. I found that one of the keys to getting the elbow into this golden point position was making sure that I had some forward tilt to my upper body when in the ready position. Your upper body does look to be more straight up and down than most instructional videos recommend. I think you are still hitting the ball a little too far in front of you, but not nearly as much as in the first video. Getting the elbow out more at the start may change that up. There are a lot of variables involved and as Benfb mentioned you do not want to get focused on too much precision or you will tense your stroke up so I would not fixate on an exact position. When you think you have the rest of the stroke pretty much down, maybe experiment a little with contacting the ball closer to your body (or even farther out) and see if you find something that works best for you. Even without following any of my suggestions here, I think you are onto a much more workable topspin Bh that should serve you well through several levels of improvement. Good luck. Mark |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/02/2016 at 2:24am |
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Looks excellent. You could contact the ball closer to your body but this is a much better stroke. Let's get that racket moving a little faster and with a thinner contact on the ball and lets see if you can make it spin even more. Maybe the attempt to make the racket go faster will make Mark and V-Griper's comments make more sense to you. Think of it as tossing that frisbee harder, You may have to fix the upper arm and rotate the shoulders/core/hips a little more.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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CraneStyle
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Posted: 02/02/2016 at 3:31am |
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@SlowMover - You are looking good and on your way...
Now, with the same robot setting aim to place the balls down the line instead of diagonally... I think you'll find that you need to generate more top spin to land the balls, which will really help timing, wrist stroke n feel... Good stuff. Enjoy!.. 😀 |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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Argothman
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Posted: 02/02/2016 at 12:31pm |
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Be careful not to think of the backhand loop as an arm-driven stroke, however. If you wish to loop backspin, or have a backhand power loop, you will need to generate most of your power from the legs and core, using your arm as a whip - rather than using your arm to drive the whole stroke.
Some might say that this is a good first step to learn the stroke - I might agree, depending on what you wish the stroke to become. However, if you hope to one day have a powerful, professional-like backhand loop, you should start now becoming familiar with the legs and core rather than the arm. |
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SlowMover
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Posted: 02/02/2016 at 1:02pm |
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Thanks ArgothMan (and V-Griper). I will do that. Once I get there, I will be looping backspin and powerlooping every chance I get as during match play I'm pretty aggressive, which is one of the reasons I'm excited to add this to my repertoire.
It's just hard to add more movement variables when your hitting some balls long and into the net. However, I've lurked around here enough to know that NextLevel would probably tell me to stop worrying about missing and just get the feel right and practice until they start landing consistently. I intend to do some saturation training on this stroke alone for a bit and then since you all have been so helpful I may have to revisit my forehand loop and get feedback on that.
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/02/2016 at 1:16pm |
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Hahaha... I got to give you some bad and some good news.. the good news is that you are right and the bad news is that Argothman and V-Griper are even more correct. But what you don't realize is that part of the reason they are going into the net is that you are not swinging fast enough and relaxed enough. That's where the core helps - the core adds power and speed as well. While someone like Brett looks like he is swinging easy like you, it is the small thing that the core is doing as well as his good timing and wrist action that is making him loop so easily. If you don't have those things, you can look like him, but you can't loop like him. Missing is part of the game - you don't get better by not missing. If you did the full stroke using the core rotation and were missing the ball into the net or off the table, I could fix your stroke in 5 minutes or less and you would have a better BH loop than me. It doesn't mean you will win more matches immediately with your loop than I do (because being able to adapt your stroke to the random ball is the bulk of TT improvement), but it means that your form would be better. So please, stop being so afraid to miss. Your wrist action is perfect. Keep the upper arm still, get that core moving and rip that ball. You should feel like you are tossing a frisbee hard enough to break glass. But it comes from the core. Don't saturate a half-way stroke. Complete the stroke and get a check mark before going forward. And you can work on your forehand loop as well - working on two things at once is better than working on just one.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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APW46
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Posted: 02/02/2016 at 3:50pm |
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Practicing your technique against a controlled feed is one thing, applying a consistent b/hand loopdrive in a match situation consistently enough for you to benefit is another.
To be consistent and effective, you have to be behind the ball at contact, unlike the f/hand where you can play at the side of your body and at full reach. I don't think you play enough to perfect it because it takes a long time to get the footwork and transition into your f/hand right, you will definitely get there if you play more though. Once a week for two years is just not enough to barely become confident at the basics, let alone master the most difficult stroke. If you play two hours a time, that is only 200 hours you have under your belt total. Enjoy proving me wrong!
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/02/2016 at 5:39pm |
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Don't worry APW46. He is a lofty 900, which is still far from your 2300+ perch. So an hour a week still has some value to him. And if he makes two backhand loops, he will be more than happy. I'm sure missing some would bring you a measure of frustration.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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SlowMover
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Posted: 02/02/2016 at 6:09pm |
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Yeah, that's what's great about being at my level. Basically anything I do leads to measurable improvement.
The other thing is that my peers are at a low level, so if I do nothing but start looping some weak serves (and believe me, there are enough at my level), then I will win more and my rating will increase. Also, I will have a foundation for the banana flip. That being said, the point is taken and I will have to play and/or practice more when I am not seeing the results I want and start to plateau.
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Brett Clarke
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Posted: 02/03/2016 at 12:14am |
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SlowMover, wait for the ball to come to you before starting the backswing. Other than that, you're now on the right track. Just keep your knees bent and don't worry too much about the waist thing. Watch William in the video below if you want to see a good backhand. Don't worry about mine. William had the best players running scared with this technique even though many other parts of his game were relatively flawed. |
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Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke
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SlowMover
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Posted: 02/03/2016 at 6:57pm |
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Thanks Brett. I will use William's BH as a reference as well.
From the little practice I've had after increasing the power, my BH may now be more powerful than my FH, though not as versatile or consistent, so I'll be spending time with your excellent video on the FH topspin next Your way of teaching is the most effective that I have found. My strokes had been really going nowhere, but with your videos and the generous commentary of the people here, I feel like I now have some of the guidance that I need to break through a level or two and just need to put in the time.
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SlowMover
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Posted: 02/23/2016 at 1:08am |
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Hey everyone. I've got a couple of update videos where I am giving it more power. In the first video, I'm just trying a bit to wait on the backswing and contact the ball not as far from the body.
(I switched back to my Mark V bat for my current loop training since it gives better feedback about the stroke than my Aurus. It's easier not to go off the endline, but it's harder to generate speed and spin.) In the second video I'm getting closer to "rip that ball" engaging the core a bit more and giving about 90% effort. Then at around 8:00 I switched the robot to backspin. |
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blahness
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Posted: 02/23/2016 at 3:27am |
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Incredible improvement! One more tip to help your stroke against backspin (or whenever you have plenty of time), bring your right shoulder forward during the backswing. This will force you to turn your torso, and unlocks yet another source of energy that you can use. You can also use the shift of weight to your left leg during the backswing, much like the FH loop stroke.
Edited by blahness - 02/23/2016 at 3:32am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/23/2016 at 8:59am |
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Slowmover,
Some good and not so good things. The good thing is the effort and the wrist. On the first video, you could have a more relaxed forearm and get the elbow out but it is a good effort. The main thing is the spin should be your focus - more on that later. Early in the second video, you swing so hard you often lose your timing and control and your form. Don't do this. Always retain enough control of your swing that you time the snap and whip properly. You are smacking the ball flat. The ball is also high so you are able to drive it with less spin. This can be okay as that is what high balls give you but that is not backhand looping. Looping is about spin. In both videos, you often make the mistake that learners make and think swinging hard is about speed. Swinging hard is about spin as much if not more than speed. You want the ball to have brush with most of the effort going into rotation, not pace. This error is greater in the topspin part in the second video. Looping topspin consistently, especially with the backhand, is probably the true mark of a class looper so don't get anything close to upset that I am pointing out a technical error with something that probably 95% plus of forum members cannot do (and you will soon be far better than most of them in this regard from a technical standpoint). Most players at lower levels confuse hitting topspin with looping it and many 2400+ players do not consistently BH loop topspin. I don't pretend to either. Your stroke gets much better when the ball becomes backspin. This leads me to believe that your problem with topspin is really about timing and contact point as the strokes are not different in form, only in contact point and trajectory of swing. The only "issue" with the backspin ball is that it is high, so your brushing ability is not challenged. But the form looked very good, especially on the misses. Some of the drives, not so much, but I liked the experiments. So here is what I would recommend: 1. Spin is your focus, no matter how hard you are trying to rip the ball. You want brush the ball hard or soft, but you need to brush. 2. Keep your swing the same. Just vary where on the ball you contact which should be reflected in how closed/open your racket is when you finish the stroke. You may not want to put it on video for us, but it is okay to deliberately loop some balls long and some balls into the net or even straight down into the table while trying to understand how contact point influences how you swing at the ball. People who don't do that sometimes underestimate or overestimate what their swing will do and remain conservatively tied to whatever they currently do. Experiment with contacting from the back, round the side top or side middle and over the etc. Use essentially the swing you used when you put those early backspin balls in the net and when they first started going over. Those were your best and whippiest swings. 3. Look at what happens to the ball. You want to have good spin and medium pace. Arc is good. Always be relaxed. You will be able to hit hard at will once you have the feeling of brush and the timing locked down but hitting hard in TT usually challenges timing and is not a good idea beyond a certain point. There is a lot of good progress - just maintain a spin focus. That age where you ripped every ball with pace is well past you if it ever existed. If you don't believe that looping backspin and topspin use essentially the same swing, compare this video to the one Brett gave you. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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SlowMover
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Posted: 02/24/2016 at 12:13am |
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Blahness, thanks for the  and tips on the shoulder. I found myself doing that in the past, but started avoiding it when I tried to restart with BC's technique as I vaguely remember him not wanting the torso to thrust up. I would bring my right shoulder down and forward coiling up my core and then unleash by basically pulling the arm forward starting with the shoulder, which is a very similar to disc golf as you can see here:Disc golf used to be my thing until table tennis took over, but a lot of the concepts transfer over, like generating power starting with the legs, through the hips, then core, to the shoulder and arm to create a whip. You actually don't let go of the disc, you just hang on tight and let the momentum rip it out of your hand. Now I'm getting off topic  I may bring back some of those elements on strokes where I have more time, but clearly, I've got to get the building blocks, like brushing more, in place before I start going there. That's not to mention actually moving to the ball in time. NextLevel, here it is. Going for for spin while retaining timing and controlled form. Some thick brushes, some thin, and some misses
 I need a lot more reps to get consistent with that thin brush as long as I know I'm practicing correctly. The feeling here of thinly brushing incoming topspin was like bringing the bat right over the top of the ball straight ahead completely horizontally. The timing looks later on video than it feels when executing it. I hope it is still within the acceptable range. I do tend to hit them to the right of the robot when I am facing the robot head on, but a lot of that is the sidespin. |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/24/2016 at 12:59am |
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Sometimes, it should feel like you caught the ball on the side first and then brought the ball over the top horizontally and sometimes towards your target. It is a way of catching the ball with heavy spin using spin avoidance before imparting your own spin. You will learn to reduce the sidespin and aim the ball relatively straight with topspin over time with practice. In any case, you are on the right path. That you can describe that feeling is impressive to me. I struggle to teach it in person. Timing can always be adjusted as long as you understand ball flight. Don't be worried about it right now.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
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Posted: 02/24/2016 at 8:17pm |
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I would agree with NextLevel that spin production should become the focus of your practice, not pure speed. The latest video is another improvement over the last one IMO. Your wrist and arm action is great looking at the moment, but I would advise you to incorporate the shoulder, core and legs in your stroke as soon as possible, since you've got that arm and wrist action pretty much nailed, to avoid developing bad "arm only" habits that would hinder you later on. The body mechanics of the BH is quite similar to disc golf in the video you shown. Here's a video of Zhang Jike doing his BH practice. Notice he brings his shoulder in front of his body and places his weight on his left leg during the backswing. The BH stroke power comes a lot from the push from your left leg (that will allow you to overcome backspin much easier!), your core rotation, and your right shoulder pulling your bat from left to right. The sooner you incorporate these aspects, the less trouble you will have later on! |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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V-Griper
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Posted: 02/24/2016 at 11:50pm |
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Ball contact is too close to top of bounce to get a better feel for spinning the ball. Setup the robot so that the ball has fallen more after top of bounce, or back up. Their is a sweet spot where the ball has fallen just the right amount to get a good spin. Too close to top of bounce and you will get more speed than spin. Too late and the ball will spin but it will be too slow. Hitting a really spiny ball at top of bounce or before is higher level shot imo.
As a side comment I played ultimate and disk golf for about 5 years, as well as tennis in high school and while their are base fundamentals that are similar between a disc throw and a TT BH I would not go too far with that analogy. BC's use of it as a way to get an idea for how the wrist functions is OK but that's based on how a beginner would throw a disc with minimal use of the body. It's more like short toss not a real BH pull, even for short distances. A strong disc throw has more in common with one handed tennis BH than a TT BH. The main difference being stepping forward/side with the right leg. This is as close as a TT BH gets to a real tennis/disc throw kind of mechanic Kenta does this kind of BH too. Note that it's a kill shot not a BH topspin. Basically your BH is fine with regard to How BC/WH are teaching it. Trying to integrate/coordinate the torso into the shot is a very deep rabbit hole. If you want to do that then just study the players who have really good lower body integration in their shot. Timo is one of the best examples. Obviously the top CNT players. |
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DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
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NextLevel
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Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Posted: 02/24/2016 at 11:53pm |
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Slowmover,
I don't think there is any rush to add anything to the current stroke - in fact, while it might sound weird, you are already far ahead of the curve. As long as the knees are bent, everything tends to fall into place over time, especially much later if and when you are playing/practicing backhands away from the table as you then learn things that tend to influence your close to the table mechanics. Close to the table, large strokes are actually dangerous and notoriously hard to time and none of us are going to be facing Liu Guoliang heavy backspin pushes anytime soon. You have better backhand technique fundamentals than I do. The real difference is that I have played for 5 years and practiced reading players and spin over that time. You still have to go through that. I would say let's see you practice backhands vs. backspin. That stroke also places a premium on spin and in some cases use of the other muscles and weight transfer but it is subtle stuff. Not Kreanga stuff. Subtle stuff.
Edited by NextLevel - 02/25/2016 at 12:32am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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SlowMover
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Joined: 09/13/2013 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 38 |
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Posted: 02/25/2016 at 12:16am |
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As I compare and look at the Henzell video above for topspin vs block, he uses just very slight leg, hips, and core engagement except when doing the kill shot.
In the other Henzell topspin vs backspin video, he's engaging the core and legs more, but never twisting as much as ZJK. I imagine the reasons are that there is more time when backspin is incoming and you need max bat speed to left backspin with a closed bat angle. Against block he needs to move quickly side to side more and there is less need and less time to fully engage like ZJK is in that video. I will probably aim to use varying degrees of the core, hips, and legs in the same situations for the same reasons. I haven't been doing as much vs backspin, but when I do again soon, I will take your advice and experiment more with what I can do with the core and legs. Likewise against block when I practice further off the table or throw in the occasional loop kill. On the other hand, if I keep the robot on topspin and start oscillating the robot head where I have to move between shots, I will probably need to keep this as more of an arm and wrist stroke. I didn't pick the moniker SlowMover for nothing I tried to claim "nofootwork", but it was already taken.I'll tell you what, I'm working hard
 to get a decent backhand loop some day, and I'm thankful for your help and everyone else's. |
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NextLevel wrote: