Choppers don't need to die they need to change

Baal wrote: Prior to JSH,  when had a defender been in the world top 10* and what made him so amazing when he burst on the scene in 2003**? 40+ balls or not, it has always been a tough way to make a living, especially on the men's side. *I honestly don't know the answer, but someone in the world top 10 on as sustained basis before JSH I am thinking you might have to go back to the 60s or 70s. ** The answer is clearly that his forehand was every bit as good as any attacking player he every faced.

TT newbie wrote: It´s interesting you say that, because I will try exactly this change.  I play SP penhold with inverted RPB, but the RPB has never been something natural for me. It takes more time to prepare and it is not near as powerful as a shakehand BH. Besides, my index finger started to ache lately, I don´t know the reason. So I will try the SH style maintaining the SP in the FH and an inverted in the BH.

Having gone through the era of the "shakehandization" tide, I guess I have seen enough to make some judgement. I have a friend who tried to incorporate the RPB with short pips. Yup, short pips. Having another inverted rubber on the back was simply too heavy back in the days. Didn't end well. He tried really hard. All in vain. OTOH, I stuck to traditional penhold, honed my short game, and guess what? I could beat loads of people, shakehanders included, merely using high-quality, well-placed pushes. See what I mean?

Edited by zeio - 03/08/2017 at 11:46am

Baal wrote: I think it's not possible.  You can stretch for a forehand and loop or chop or whatever and get away with it.  BH side is a lot more sensitive, you really cannot be very far out of position and hit any kind of decent BH.  But defenders often have to bring balls back on that side from awkward positions (it's what makes them so fun to watch, it's like watching a tightrope act).  LP on the BH makes this less of an issue -- you can stretch a bit more on still manage to keep the ball low -- but the tradeoff is you can't really attack with it.  I think if what you asked was viable, we would have seen it.

Prior to JSH,  when had a defender been in the world top 10* and what made him so amazing when he burst on the scene in 2003**?

40+ balls or not, it has always been a tough way to make a living, especially on the men's side.

*I honestly don't know the answer, but someone in the world top 10 on as sustained basis before JSH I am thinking you might have to go back to the 60s or 70s.

** The answer is clearly that his forehand was every bit as good as any attacking player he every faced.

Current defenders must have a monster FH and must be able to attack with the BH quiet frequently
-either by twiddling if they use a LP in BH
-or with the SP

I have always played defence with SP because it gives you the opportunity to attack and varying the spins more effectively, even when we played with real TT Balls, I mean 38mm celluloid ones.
But with the plastic ball era, it has become obvious.
if you take a look at the woman professionnal side, nearly all defenders use SP. On the man side, unless you have JSH FH and footwork or Filus ability to twiddle and attack on both side with your inverted rubbers, it has become really difficult with LP

Hans Regenkurt wrote: It is impossible for defenders to challenge attacking players. Unless the ITTF changes the long pip rule, every half defender will sink in rankings. The problem in my view is that long pips do not offer good control and are too sensitive to incoming speed with the plastic ball. They would not have enough disturbing effect anyway but at least they would help stay in the rally for a longer time. A strong forehand is indispensable for a defender.

In order to challenge them better I think it might be best to take some of the more venomous aspects of an attacking style and incorporate into the defensive chopping style. You can actually see some of it Ruwen Filus's backhand. Sometimes he will twiddle to his inverted and produce a really deadly backhand attack. I'm saying what if he didn't have to twiddle? What if he could do that at all distances and at any time while still being able to chop, much like Joo Saehyuk's inverted forehand but on both wings instead of one? I think that could pose a challenge to anyone.

Baal wrote: I think the next great chopper will be like JSH, that is to say, a monstrous forehand.  I don't think the BH rubber needs to change much.  I don't see anyone being able to chop effectively at world top 10 level with inverted or SP.  I could imagine a high friction LP, though. IN the modern era, there have not been many great defenders and they will always be a rare species because that is the only way they can thrive.

I can see what you're saying and I understand that asking for a top level version of that style is a tall order. However, Joo Saehyuk has proven with his forehand that he can chop the most powerful of loops with his fast inverted rubber while at the same time having said monstrous forehand. To put as simply as possible, if this player were to have both a backhand and forehand equal to Joo Saehyuk's forehand, we would see one of the greatest players to have ever participated in our sport.

It almost hurts to say this but Joo Saehyuk's backhand is his weakness. His attacks with it are impressive but he's mostly just using it to chop 99% of the time. This, is all while his forehand has such perfect balance between chopping and attacking has been unseen. If that could be carried over to the backhand it would be unreal.

berndt_mann wrote: I was trained in the classic chopping/pickhitting countertopspining against chop style, but I'm inclined to believe that the chopper of the future who contends for a world championship going to have to be adept at looping both forehand and backhand and chopping with venom to set up a counterattack using inverted rubber both sides.  Here, GeneralSpecific, I agree with you.  I don't know if Tenergy 05 or Tenergy 64 might be effective as used by a chopper/two winged looper against an all out two winged (mostly forehand) looper.  I've only read about their characteristics from my latest Butterfly catalog and from what you all on MYTT say about that stuff.   But it does seem apparent to me that the chopmeister of the future is going to have to have a dangerous counterloop off of both wings as well as a chop with sufficient variation to force or elicit errors from an attacking opponent. Option No. 2:  Go to hard rubber or sandpaper.  Persuade the ITTF to do the same (but of course).

I'm not getting hung up on the specific types of inverted rubber. It could be anything, not specifically Tenergy. I only used Tenergy as an example.

zeio wrote: May as well become an offensive player. That's what Waldner said as well. The problem with doing that is you lose the distinct and unique qualities that define your style. Take the penhold grip, for example. Over a decade later with the innovation of RPB, there is less and less vitality in the style. Why is that? The reason is simple. Penholders lose their identities(forehand/3rd ball/short game/variation) the more they adopt the shakehand style. Why struggle with RPB when you can just play shakehand?

May as well become an offensive player. That's what Waldner said as well.

The problem with doing that is you lose the distinct and unique qualities that define your style. Take the penhold grip, for example. Over a decade later with the innovation of RPB, there is less and less vitality in the style. Why is that? The reason is simple. Penholders lose their identities(forehand/3rd ball/short game/variation) the more they adopt the shakehand style. Why struggle with RPB when you can just play shakehand?

Edited by zeio - 03/07/2017 at 9:57pm

With the plastic ball and with the lowering of spin and speed with it; many choppers have found it difficult to continue to play as effectively as they previously were playing with the celluloid ball. I propose that this doesn't need to be a death sentence for choppers. I believe that a change in mindset and possibly equipment is what is necessary at this point in time.

First, let's look at the previous ball change from 38mm to 40mm. During the era of the 38mm ball there were a large number or classic choppers. Relying almost purely on chopping with only occasionally attacking a very high ball. Towards the end of this era came Koji Matsushita, arguably the greatest chopper of the 20th century and in my opinion, capable of the best forehand chop in the history of the sport. Matushita's style, while still maintaining many aspects of classic defense, incorporated consistently much more offense than had previously been used in a defensive style. This paved the way for the modern defender that exists today.

This brought about Joo Saehyuk as a natural evolution. Joo Saehyuk was the greatest defender of the celluloid era without a doubt and arguably (and in my own opinion) the greatest defender of all time. What allowed him to be so noteworthy is his unparalleled versatility in the strokes he could produce. Attacks on both wings, a forehand as powerful as most of the best non-Chinese players, and chops as good as Matsushita's. The change to 40mm required this change to a more versatile and more offensive chopper. I am not saying that Joo Saehyuk is an offensive player with long pips on his backhand or that this type of change is necessary. I am only claiming that to play at a world top 10 level, the versatility displayed by Joo Saehyuk is what is required. There have been many other choppers with an offensive forehand (Weixing, Panagiotis, Filus, etc.) but none that could both chop and attack the way Joo Saehyuk could.

Now, with the transition to the plastic ball I think a further change within the style is necessary for a chopper to enter the world top 10. As demonstrated by the previous ball change; an increase in offense equaled success. The plastic ball is having a somewhat similar impact on the sport as the previous change in ball size. So I believe that a further increase in offense is required. To do so, I believe the pips used on the backhand side need to increase in friction. If long pips are to be maintained then something with no less grip than Feint Long 3/ Curl P4 should be used. However, I feel that even that is not enough. I think that if a new super chopper is to exist he will use short pips or possibly even inverted rubber.

I point to a quote by Joo Saehyuk himself saying "In my opinion, since the ball has been changed, short pips are better because you may put more variation with it". ( http://www.mhtabletennis.com/2015/10/the-worlds-best-modern-defence.html ) I feel that if Joo Saehyuk were 15 years or more younger, he would have trained with short pips and trained to be more aggressive and would be a top 10 player in this era rather than the previous. Yuto Muramatsu has come close, but I find that even though he is using the right equipment and has powerful attacks, he is still not offense enough and seems a bit inconsistent.

Honestly, I think that inverted rubber might be what's necessary even more so than short pips. Joo Saehyuk can use Tenergy 64 to forehand chop all day against the forehand attacks of the best Chinese players. Why can't it be done on both wings? Joanna Parker/Drinkhall made it to women's number 1 in England chopping with Tenergy 05 on both sides.

This is where I see the future of chopping moving assuming it doesn't die out before then. Rubber with higher friction than was commonly used in the past and with a push towards more offensive play on both wings. Maybe instead of the 75% defense/25% offense of Joo Saehyuk we might see it at 50/50 or 60/40 slightly favoring offense.

I've actually have made this my own style. I probably play at about 65ish percent offense depending on my opponent. I can never achieve a world class level of play but if someone could truly master that style of play I can see a new world top 10 player in the future.

I'd like to talk about this. I wouldn't be surprised if I have overlooked something either for or against this argument. What are your thoughts?