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Service Umpire -- quite sound idea.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mog1111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2017 at 1:59pm


Andy, as usual your explanation is succinct and accurate, my only slight difference of opinion is that even at grand prix level most umpires don't bother calling serves anyway

that has been my experience this season

also in our local league several players become quite hostile if their serves are questioned, I do however agree most players don't know the service rules
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2017 at 3:14pm
Most of the players at my club may know the rules, but serve illegally out of laziness.  I don't bother to correct them because I use their serves as training for when I run into an illegal server at a tournament.  I work at keeping my serves legal, but probably don't toss it as high as I should.

I'm bothered by the server that hides his serve with his arm or body.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2017 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Umpires are just score counters?  Not in the US in events where we have them.  Illegal serves here are definitely called frequently.  
Sorry, but that's not been my experience anywhere.  Some umpires will call certain service violations, such as cupped hand.  No toss serves are called less frequently but definitely not often.  Non-vertical serves and hidden serves are almost never called.  This includes the big tournaments like US Open.

My view is that some umpires are strict and some are not.  Among those that are strict, they make the calls for which they are very confident.  They don't make the calls where there is ambiguity in their mind, which is why hidden serves aren't called.

The purpose behind the new rule is to create more umpire confidence.   If someone's sole job is to call serves and he's put in a position to have a clear view, then he's a lot more likely to make a call and stand up to arguing players.

I think it's a great rule change, even though it doesn't help us at the amateur level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2017 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Loads don't know about the net-post being part of the net rule, for example, and the subtleties of illegal serving can be lost on many.

Can't expect much when even the world number 4 was ignorant of that rule.

@1:15
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2017 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

...Very fun, they had umpires wearing nice uniforms with ties and such.  One match the guy was serving right out of this hand.  I actually gestured to the umpire making a sign that suggested my opponent might want to actually try tossing the ball on his serve.  She woke up immediately, and actually enforced that rule pretty strongly thereafter.  She clearly knew the rule.  I don't know if it was "let's be nice to the foreigner", or if it just was a question of reminding her and waking her out of her apathy.  Either explanation is plausible.

As for illegal LPs, and stuff like that in China, I have seen good players there using ancient equipment with rubber from the Pleistocene era.  I am only rarely in Shanghai or Beijing, and for a lot of people in the places I usually go (more remote areas), a new sheet of any kind of rubber is a non-essential expense a lot of people won't make.  So LPs get worn to a frictionless state, regardless of what they were when they started.  Tensors are almost like antis.  Personally I would never complain about that and admire the players who are incredibly effective, some with very strange self-taught styles that match their strange equipment.  The touch some of those guys have is amazing, but they have been playing since childhood.

This guy's serve was insanely hidden and very spinny and I was looking pretty bad.  Coach was joking around, all his buddies at the club were laughing at the hapless foreigner...So I said screw this, and I unloaded a few of my "Viktor specials".  In short, I partied like it was 1999. Side-top and side-under combos, with my left elbow (free arm) pointed right at his chest, ball contact close to my body.  And the coach could not return them any better than I could return his, and he ended up being pretty embarrassed that this American guy could make him look silly too.  But he laughed and it was fun, actually we messed around after that seeing who could hit a more blatantly illegal serve.  After that all these guys in the club wanted to play me and it was great fun, nearly everybody served legally, and I had dinner and beer afterword with a bunch of them.  And I didn't lose to everybody so went back to my hotel later with at least some pride remaining. 


You've been sinicized. The way it's meant to be played. The general table tennis population in China is more about participation and having a good time.

On the more serious level, say tournaments with prize money, however, people respect the rules, but the problem is they don't need to "cheat" to win, they are ex-provincial players "hired" to play. That alone gives a whole new meaning to cheating.

Edited by zeio - 03/17/2017 at 5:36pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2017 at 10:26pm

WAY OFF TOPIC START ANOTHER THREAD !!!!!!!!!!!

Too much talk of other cheating



....

Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 03/17/2017 at 10:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2017 at 12:28am
(zeio)  To Baal:  You've been sinicized. The way it's meant to be played. The general table tennis population in China is more about participation and having a good time.

You've also been Americanized.  American recreational players could not care less about service rules, boosters, tuners, speed glues, 40+ mm. balls, and all that happy horsecrap because they've never heard of them, never used them, and pretty much play pong as I and my junior high classmates played during lunch hour with crapbats on a beat up table in a homeroom.  By today's technical standards, we didn't know what we were doing, but we had a hell of a fine time, even if you did get skunked (beaten 7-0).

What goes on recreationally in pong as played round the world isn't the problem.  The problem is persistent and deliberate cheating in the form of boosting rubbers and noncompliance with and nonenforcement of the present service rules, which can, and probably does, harm the reputation of the sport as played at the professional level.  At the level at which the vast majority of us play or in my case played, cheating and unsportsmanlike conduct are problems to be maddingnly endured, unless some of the worst offenders suddenly see the light or magically enough umpires appear at every table at every tournament to make sure hanky panky is kept within tolerable limits.


Edited by berndt_mann - 03/18/2017 at 12:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2017 at 12:41am

In baseball .. Umpires enforce the Pitcher Balk Rule strictly which is part of his arm motion.

TT Serve Rules be enforced by the service Umpires.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2017 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Loads don't know about the net-post being part of the net rule, for example, and the subtleties of illegal serving can be lost on many.

'Can't expect much when even the world number 4 was ignorant of that rule.' - zeio

Look like the umpire had raised her hand to give point to Japan. Big surprise. With the Japanese coach and the referee coming into the picture; after the Hong Kong coach, was the point eventually given to Hong Kong. I suspect the umpire changed her decision in the end. Does anyone know ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2017 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

...The problem is persistent and deliberate cheating in the form of boosting rubbers and noncompliance with and nonenforcement of the present service rules, which can, and probably does, harm the reputation of the sport as played at the professional level...


Noncompliance and nonenforcement? You must've forgotten this thread. The role model turned into the victim in a matter of days. Makes you wonder if there are two factions split on the issue within the ITTF.

Rubber boosting is way overblown. From the inception of the VOC limit, it has gone from 4 ppm in '09 to 3 ppm in '10, and it was originally planned to be further reduced to 2 ppm in '11, but was stopped by a BoD proposition and the 3 ppm has remained intact ever since. Why? The problem is not after-market boosting. It is factory-tuning that is sanctioned by none other than the ITTF. Yet, this is what Sharara wrote in his annual report in 2009:

Quote Racket Control
The ITTF has succeeded in reducing the VOC levels in rackets to less than 4 ppm. This threshold will be lowered gradually annually to 3 ppm and then 2 ppm. Already the majority of the players test at less than 2 ppm. Although we have success in reducing the harmful levels of VOCs, we now have new issues with "boosting" and "tuning", as well as carving the racket surface or manipulating the thickness of the rubber to more than 4 mm. These illegal actions are to be expected and we see athletes trying to push the envelope in every sport in order to enhance their own performance. Shame on those who cheat, and shame on those who assist players in cheating. The ITTF will remain diligent in improving its detection tools and mechanisms, and with the improvement of the quality of the equipment, we sincerely hope that the issue of racket control and racket testing will fall into its right place as a routine function of the umpire and fully respected by the players.


Edited by zeio - 03/18/2017 at 11:31pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2017 at 11:08pm
Originally posted by baal baal wrote:

Personally I would never complain about that and admire the players who are incredibly effective, some with very strange self-taught styles that match their strange equipment. The touch some of those guys have is amazing, but they have been playing since childhood.

Like grandpa in bellevue/seattle. You described well a lp sheet that has been working fine for the last 20 years and nobody will say a thing about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2017 at 11:27pm
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

<table width="99%" style="color: rgb0, 0, 0; font-size: 12px; : rgb251, 251, 253;"><t><tr><td ="BBquote" style="width: 740.275px;">Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Loads don't know about the net-post being part of the net rule, for example, and the subtleties of illegal serving can be lost on many.</td></tr></t></table><br style=": rgb251, 251, 253;"><span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">'Can't expect much when even the world number 4 was ignorant of that rule.' - zeio</span>

Look like the umpire had raised her hand to give point to Japan. Big surprise. With the Japanese coach and the referee coming into the picture; after the Hong Kong coach, was the point eventually given to Hong Kong. I suspect the umpire changed her decision in the end. Does anyone know ?

penholderxxx

<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>

Li Ching called for the referee(the one standing behind Li Ching), who overturned the umpire's decision.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 12:59am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

There must be a few sports where cheating your tail off is not the norm.  Golf, cricket, tennis, bowling, curling, buzkashi?

Berndt, With all this discussion of scandals and table tennis cheaters, I expected you to mention Hiroji Satoh, 1952. Also, have you not heard of "broomgate" in curling? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 1:17am
We await Heavyspin's new Youtube vid mimicking CNT training under serve umpire conditions...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 5:29am
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

There must be a few sports where cheating your tail off is not the norm.  Golf, cricket, tennis, bowling, curling, buzkashi?

Berndt, With all this discussion of scandals and table tennis cheaters, I expected you to mention Hiroji Satoh, 1952. Also, have you not heard of "broomgate" in curling? 


You're batting .500 here, heavy.  Hiroji Satoh. though according to contemporaries hardly the best player on the Japanese team, won the 1952 World Singles Championship fair and square as the rule regarding equipment at the time, known simply as Rule 4, permitted any kind of striking surface on one's racket so long as it was not white and it was non-reflecting, that is, mirror-like.  Of course we all know what that led to.

As for curling, I do remember reading about "broomgate" a while back, and I'm trying to remember what "broomgate" was all about.  Special bristles on the brooms that made it easier to steer the curling stone to knock the other team's stone out of the way and get yours closer to the bull's eye?  I hope curling's still not doing that anymore.

As for table tennis, as the late Kurt Vonnegut wrote, and so it goes.  And goes.  And goes.  And keeps on going.


Edited by berndt_mann - 03/19/2017 at 5:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2017 at 4:14am


DOUBLE POSTING ELIMINATED

Edited by igorponger - 04/05/2017 at 7:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garwor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2017 at 6:16am
Didn't read whole thread, but umpires are often old people, who cannot see properly server's fast action.
Challenge like in tennis and american football would be useful. Also service umpire who watch player's actions on monitor (taken from proper angle). 
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Boycott Marcos Freitas for hidden services!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2017 at 7:08am
WHAT a good service should look like?



Most of those services (90% or something) are a good serving, I believe.   Maybe not exactly perfect, but still in compliance with all the core principles of Service rule.
-- Ball remains moveless before tossing upwards, above the level of the table's top and behind the server's end line..
-- sufficient clearance between the ball and the hand palm after service got started   (*)some drift of the ball away from a sheer verticality up to 30* still allowed.)
-- clear space between the ball and the net throuthout service action
-- (*) A slight cuping of the free hand's palm is no problem as long as the ball not gripped by fingers somehow.

Everyone would be able to perform a legal service after a proper practice.   Where there is a will there is a way,   
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