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Tortured by angles, placement, misdirection |
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mwechsler
Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 22 |
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Posted: 06/10/2017 at 12:26am |
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I have had a few wins against Rich in tournaments. He does not win with power. I use short pips on my backhand and can counter against his dead shots. Also my own misdirection was an issue for him as his own anticipation is a big factor in his success.
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Marius
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Swiff
Platinum Member Joined: 06/09/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2587 |
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Hi Heavyspin It seems like you need to:
-#1 Speaks for itself, you'll be more ready to move to the next ball if you're completely recovered from the last ball. -#2 If you hit your shots long and play the middle, he can't make much of an angle. Careful! That allows him to go left or right, so be ready. -#3 This is important! If you hit wide to his forehand, the ball is more likely to come back wide to your forehand. The most common shot is using the angle that's already created. I noticed you weren't moving with the shots you were hitting. -#4 This will shorten the gap you have to cover if your opponent gets an angle on you.
Edited by Swiff - 06/09/2017 at 2:41pm |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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I have played both Larry and Rich multiple times - and I must say that both are formidable opponents even if they are not in the best shape. Neither am I nowadays but that's a different "out-of-shapeness" so to speak.
I played Rich about 7-8 times at the tournaments and 2-3 times was very close to winning - as in leading 2-1 and 10-8, or having a matchpoint at deuce. However I only beat him once - that was this weird (for me) recent tournament in RI where Rich beat everybody else and I played all my other important matches with a wrong paddle (it was not me, it was setup I tells ya!)... With Rich you either need to run a lot and try to hit fast into his body or you play very spinny to force mistakes. He is very used to play very flat and sometimes misses the table when his return still has too much rotation so it doesn't go where he expects. Rich is an extremely experienced player and he can adjust and re-adjust his game very fast. Well, within some margins - he doesn't really start playing a very different game but he certainly changes his attitude as well as rhythm and angles etc. With Larry there was not a lot of wins - I think I only beat him couple of times in club league, and lost at least 6-7 times in tournaments. So our balance is also significantly skewed into his favor, although it is often kinda easier for me to have a plan for a game against him than with Rich. However properly executing that plan is not easy - Larry usually plays very spinny game and his balls are often unexpectedly bouncy and fast. Playing my moderately allround offensive style with Larry almost always turns out to be a mistake - only when I am in a really good shape I was able to win the match. Also don't believe him when he starts panting and showing the entire world that he is oh so tired. That's a trick, don't fall for it! |
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1533 |
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You are correct, my mistake. I forgot about those two. I was thinking of the side table matches once at the Cary Cup and once at the Teams. I believe those 2 were also 3-0, 3-1 to Rich.
Edited by heavyspin - 06/09/2017 at 10:52am |
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Vince64
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1533 |
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Keep in mind those two matches were practice or challenge matches in the setting of a tournament.
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koshkin
Silver Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 523 |
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That is a difficult match-up for Pushblocker. Rich plays very flat.
ILya
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Vince64
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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Just curious: has Rich ever played Pushblocker?
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koshkin
Silver Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 523 |
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I've seen Rich play a few times. I know how good he is, but still I have no idea how half of those shots land anywhere near the table.
I do not think I have any new advice to offer here. I've never played people who were that good and people who were that weird, but never both. I have played a few people who play a similar style and are closer to my level and the only strategy that worked for me was to effectively play them like i would play a penholder: play deep, slow and heavy into the BH, then attack strongly to the BH. Once they expect the BH, open deep, slow and heavy into the FH, then attack strongly to the BH. With players who like to stand in the middle of the table, it is helpful to get them to move toward one of the corners, before you attack the other corner. ILya |
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wilkinru
Silver Member Joined: 04/28/2015 Location: Las Vegas Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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Rich is obviously very good at controlling the ball.
I would try some odd tactics on serve and trying some angles. Serve from the other side of the table to force a really wide forehand. It's just something to try. How does he do against lefties? As others have suggested spin can be the enemy. I don't think your weight was an issue - he had some really good ball placement. He was happy for you to loop your 3rd ball in the video you showed us. Twice he got you with a block to your backhand corner from a 3rd ball loop. Perhaps offer up some sidespin on the backhand, pushing the ball out wider. I don't think his forehand stroke is powerful enough on it's own to get past you if you are ready for them (good example at the end when you countered it on him). Maybe looping to his forehand cross court could have success. Btw Heavyspin - you have some really nice strokes. Fluid and lots of whip. For those who get on him for being so heavy...I don't think any of those clips change if he drops a bunch of weight. Not every match is determined by physical fitness (but some are...). Edited by wilkinru - 06/08/2017 at 3:39pm |
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1533 |
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Don't mind at all. I really like the expression "dropped the hammer" - very appropriate for the context. I recently showed the video to my part-time coach, the former CNT, and she said (via interpreter) that I should never back off the table vs Rich and echoed some of the other points you made. I also worked with a friend where we used advanced physics to help explain Rich's game. The following theories are influenced by the work of Werner Heisenberg and Erwin Schrodinger. 1st Theory: One might determine where Rich will place the ball or one might determine how fast he'll hit the ball, but it's impossible to determine both at the same time. 2nd Theory: Rich's ball is not topspin, underspin, both, or neither until it contacts one's racket. Only by hitting it can one determine its spin and it is always 50/50 probability.
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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Hey, if you don't mind a bit of belated thinking here... here's what I saw in the video: You can't afford to let him move you around. Anywhere where you move off the table or lose your balance, you're at risk that his next shot will go to a location that is impossible for you to reach. The rallies that worked best for you were where you could make comfortable loops where he couldn't push you too hard, and then you dropped the hammer with a hard shot. I think your "usual" strategy of medium speed may be *too* fast. I'd go for a slower, even more spiny loop. The less speed you put on the ball, the less energy there is for him to convert into a fast shot of his own. And the more spin you have, the harder for him to hit as opposed to block. The idea is to keep the rally going with minimal footwork or loss of balance (and no moving off the table). You look for the opportunity; the chance for your power shot that he can't easily deflect. In the video, you were indiscriminate in your choice of power shots. If you want to mix something else in, I'd try super-slow, very dead balls. Basically, throw his own game back at him. It won't be hard to control his shots because he can't generate much spin himself. But I would use this only as the occasional change-up. This is all assuming you have the skill level to match Rich's, but I know how well you can play. Given your mobility limitations, I think you could win with a different strategy.
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penholderxxx
Super Member Joined: 09/19/2016 Location: Asia Status: Offline Points: 451 |
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If I may make an observation : that ' medium speed high spin ball ' attacking opening was probably not a good idea. The opponent was waiting for it to block or push or punch or smack left and right back and his control was good enough to handle that 'attacking opening'.
Once the opponent could return that attack to the left or right, you are destabilized. Worst, you step back; thinking you will have more time. It has been said; stay closer to the table; 'feed' him left and right 'fast' if you can; no medium speed high speed returns to his blade. This is what I would do if I could. penholderxxx |
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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I don't think heavyspin has the mobility to sustain long corner to corner rallies. Young mobile guys like you and me can cover corners over and over again all day, but he has trouble covering more than two corners. |
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pgpg
Gold Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1306 |
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Long rallies were not a problem the one time I played him, since I was getting into 'pick up a ball' mode very quickly. Balls are flat, low, go into the corners, and plenty of misdirection to boot. Shrugs off your spin (and I don't produce much in the first place). I think I got 5 points at most.
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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Don't get into long rallies with him. Try to finish the point with every hit. With each successive hit the advantage is more in his favor.
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1533 |
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Advice for the under 2100 field. You can sometimes beat Rich because he is off. He hits a ball into the net or off the end that would've been a winner or a clear advantage shot. Playing into his right hip can be effective. If you can scramble and retrieve well, backing off the table can work since he doesn't have much power. Abort that plan if it's not working, continue if it is working. Most of the time you will react to what he does and won't often have the luxury to carry out your plan. When I've had success (as in wins) against Rich, I was more selective in attacks and played less spinny. My general tendency is to offer a medium speed high spin ball as my opening attack and take it from there. This feeds into Rich's strength and my ball is now probably easier for him since the ball change to plastic.
Edited by heavyspin - 05/05/2017 at 9:01pm |
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1533 |
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Inverted both sides but behaves like medium pips if that answers your question.
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SmackDAT
Platinum Member Joined: 01/01/2012 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 2231 |
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This guy uses short pimples on the forehand?
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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There are quite a few ways to beat Rich but if you are an athletic looper, the simplest is to serve long and wide into his backhand and loop the return into his forehand.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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DreiZ
Platinum Member Joined: 06/01/2009 Location: New York, US Status: Offline Points: 2576 |
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DeWitt is a tough opponent, i saw him play a few times and his game is very efficient. Im way under you guys in rating but i would guess try to hit those corners and make him move, hitting into his body seems like a bad idea since he counters alot. Nonetheless excellent play.
Edited by DreiZ - 05/05/2017 at 5:42pm |
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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DeWitt's placement is impressive. If I was coaching this match I would suggest more short game. Also more dead balls and make him open-he appears to thrive in the counter attack. I would also suggest when you open find his elbow. Great video.
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rocketman222
Gold Member Joined: 01/06/2007 Location: Walnut Creek,CA Status: Offline Points: 1152 |
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The only thing I would try against him would be a deeper ball on your openings, which is much harder to put away than the ones that land mid-table'ish, other than that I don't really know what would work on this kind of a player.
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pgpg
Gold Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1306 |
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You guys do know that Rich is currently 2200+, was rated as high as 2450+ and even today consistently gives trouble to players around 2350 if not higher?
Beating him is not trivial, so I am curious as to what strategies and ball quality/consistency one must possess to defeat him. His rubbers are also quite dead and not spin-sensitive.
Edited by pgpg - 05/05/2017 at 2:32pm |
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nv42
Super Member Joined: 01/22/2013 Location: india Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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Against players like rich, guess you have no choice other than to out-pace him or just out-play him. If you are really fit and have good polished strokes then you can definitely back off a few feet from the table and use his angles against him. But yeah, if you arnt quick enough on your feet, guess all you can hope to do is either beat him at his own game, or try to throw his game off.
All said n done,imma big fan of yoursheavyspin, totally loved a few those rallies man! |
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GMan4911
Silver Member Joined: 08/31/2012 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 830 |
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Rich's body language is very deceptive. He looks like he's going one
way but goes the other way using his wrist. He's very good at
placement. You need really good reaction times to be able to play against him.
If I were playing him, and I'm not a fast improving junior who can beat him with speed, I would probably stay close to the table and try to use his tactics against him. Hit fast and deep and/or wide, never to the same place more than twice, and force him to move. Do it to him before he does it to you. Edited by GMan4911 - 05/05/2017 at 2:16pm |
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balldance
Super Member Joined: 01/28/2009 Status: Offline Points: 246 |
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if it was me, I would be very aggressive, take initiative and use speed to prevent him from doing the weird shots. Most awkward guys I know can't handle fast balls as good as slow balls. When the ball is fast, they have less time and less options to do weird shots and will just try to put the ball back to table. As for the OP, no offense but clearly the problem is that your weight prevent you from recovering quickly from shots and covering the wide areas. Or maybe you were just too tired? The only strategy I can think of is stay close to table, use shorter strokes, don't move too much and use very little body weight transfer in order to keep balance all the time and ready to cover all the table. That's how the best big guys (that I know) play. Edited by balldance - 05/05/2017 at 1:53pm |
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jpenmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 12/24/2008 Location: Chicago Status: Offline Points: 2176 |
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Just stick closer to the table to cut down the distance you have to cover.
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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So if you were going to have had a strategy, what would it be? I play a lot a awkward guys like this, not nearly as good, but same general idea. So I'm curious what coukd work.
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