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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Posted: 10/19/2017 at 1:16pm |
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Hello,
I've recently got back to playing regularly, after a gap of over 21 years. I've managed to find my old bat - Butterfly Joyner -H AN (OFF) ply, with dead'ish Mark V(FH), and a Friendship 729 (BH)..... Back then, I'd like to think I'd played at an intermediate level. My game used to be close to the table - push, heavy chop, back-spin oriented BH, with BH smash (with huge arm back-swing) when there was a clear opportunity. On the FH side, it was loops, flicks, push, chop, and and my favourite - FH top-spin or heavy loop, down the line, but from the BH side of the table. However, all the above was mostly during the 38mm ball era. Currently (I'm 42), my game is really crappy. I'm not too fit, have minor bone-calcifications, and generally stiff, so my speed and movement is rather slow. I'd have to down-grade my level to a beginner-intermediate. I wonder how good my current bat configuration is, in this era of 40mm plastic ball... I don't think that I want to play competition level TT, anymore... Not yet, atleast .. I know that I have to change the rubbers, for sure.. There's pretty much dead... I went to a shop to check-out some rubbers and ply, and also Googled for the same, but the large variety available these days, makes my head spin with confusion... So, here's where I would much appreciate some advice, suggestions, recommendations -
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Simon_plays
Gold Member Joined: 05/02/2015 Location: Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 1073 |
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I'm not an expert on equipment matters and how to help people return to the sport but here's one thing you could do:
Take some photos of your blade and put it up for sale either here or on ebay. So long as there's a metal butterfly on the bottom of the handle you should get a decent amount for it. Use that money to buy yourself a Butterfly Korbel with a sheet of Mark V on both sides. Or, just play with your old bat and get the same rubbers you used to have. For getting back into the game having a set up that is familiar should be very helpful and so long as you're just playing for fun it'll surely have enough juice.
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geardaddy
Super Member Joined: 11/14/2013 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 402 |
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I too was away for 15 years (just a few years before the change to 40mm ball). IMO the biggest change to the game has been the change from the 38mm ball to the 40mm ball. I think the 40mm ball has generally made it easier to attack, and thus the game has really become dominated by loop-attack styles. More specific answers to your questions ... 1. You don't have to change your ply at all. I used to play an "all-around" style years ago, where I used something like a Butterfly Grubba. I do admit that I have gravitated towards using faster/stiffer blades now. But, your Joyner is just fine, and would still be considered a pretty fast blade. 2. You can still get MarkV if you want, and there are a few others out there that mimmick older types of rubber (like Xiom Musa). The older style rubber will work fine, but it might depend on your playing style. If you want to play an aggressive looping style then the older MarkV type rubber will be under-powered compared to most newer rubber. The newer rubbers definitely allow for more spin/power on loops, in a way that is not quite like the old speed-glue effect, and it is worth it to switch to the newer rubber if you want that power. It will definitely be an adjustment that takes a few months at least to get used to the feel of the newer rubbers. It is much worse in particular with the rubbers that have a high degree of "catapult" (like Butterfly's Tenergy or Tibhar's MX-P). IMO, Xiom's Vega series is some of the best for the money, and Vega Europe or Vega Asia are a good stepping stone to newer rubbers (note that Vega Pro has bit more "catapult" effect). 3. I would just emphasize that you should ease into it slowly. I have always kept myself in pretty good general fitness, but even so Table Tennis requires a lot of explosive movements, and I noticed a lot of muscle soreness and stress in certain areas when I came back to playing that I had to work through. Particularly my shoulder, lower back, and calves would get a big workout. Just watch out and limit your play and/or training session time such that you don't get injured. Welcome back!
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Shifu
Super Member Joined: 01/15/2017 Location: Germany Status: Online Points: 387 |
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You could go for a Primo Off- or Korbel with Xiom Vega Intro for example. Not that expensive and easy to use + capable blade which lasts longer (if you improve)
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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Since I am going through the process, I'll relate some experiences.
I re-started with as an all-around blade and rubber. I was fine but I just couldn't generate the spin or speed against those who were gluing (I discovered most of the players were still doing it), or those who were using OFF blades and/ir rubber. I tried working in putting more into it, but it was c exhausting. After a few false starts with DHS hard rubber (impossible for me), ESN rubber (I couldn't handle the tension catapult in any of them), and trying out Tenergy (way outside of my capabilities), I settled on a relatively flexible composite blade (Diamond CQ) and a medium hard Japanese (non-ESN) tension rubber, Stiga Calibra LT, which proved to be a good combination though a bit difficult to create spin because it had very good speed. So it was a process of gradually whittling down possibilities. The main point is that it is quite difficult to generate good speed and spin with all-around equipment on a sustainable basis unless one had the energy and body mechanics, which may be why others have given you advice to change. Control and feel is lost, but you do get the additional dynamics. Younger people don't have this problem because they can get away for long periods of time and still feel great and energetic. So some compromise may be necessary. |
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Hi Geardaddy, Thanks for your suggestions ... The only reasons why I'd continue with a new Mark V is
However, after more than 25 years, I think, we've grown apart... It's time to move on... The Xiom Vega Europe is one of the rubbers I'm considering, for FH ... However, availability could be an issue... I'm not too sure, but, now, I think, I'd like rubbers, that'll help me loop/top-spin faster, but with lesser effort. Based on what I've read, and heard, I could opt for the following, for my FH
For my BH, my choice are as follows : -
Yep... I'm taking it easy ... I don't play for more than an hour, including warm-up, stretching, and breaks; and only thrice a week... There was some soreness initially, but that was expected... Currently, my focus is on movement, and getting my shots right... It's good to be back.... Thanks!!
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Hi Rich, Thanks for your reply and suggestions ... I feel Table Tennis has become a darn expensive sport (Atleast, for me), which make it very difficult for me to zero-in on the best suited equipment, by trail-and-error, or as you say - gradually whittling down possibilities. Yep, creating spin and especially speed has indeed become harder, partly due to overall body stiffness, lack of timing, and also due to the fact that the rubbers are now mostly dead... However, I think, if I keep at it, I will surely regain, atleast some of my game... |
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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Yes, I think the chemistry/equipment aspect of the game has snowballed into a giant mess where one has to seek some combination of rubber and blade that somehow feels OK and makes one somewhat competitive in a game, even just training. The blade part is decided by whether you want and can handle composite for the extra speed and speed with decrease in control. I personally would prefer all wood but it is difficult to maintain the effort required so I'm going to stick with composite and try to find one that fits by testing at the club. So far, all have been to fast for me. With the rubber, I doubt you'll like Chinese and Tenergy will probably be too much, so it will come down to ESN or Japanese rubber, e.g. Xiom (pretty popular) ESN, Stiga Japanese or possibly the new Butterfly Rozena. Watch out for weight, trampoline effects, rubber that is too soft or too hard. I don't enjoy the hunt. I look for a rubber that is somewhat durable in its tension effect and stay with it as long as I can. Good luck. Edited by richrf - 10/20/2017 at 9:54am |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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The Jonyer is a great blade. It's not incredibly fast but IMO it should be fast enough for the average, non-competition level amateur.
There are too many rubber options and it can be overwhelming. The best thing you can do is try as many bats out at your club as possible. Visit a tournament if there is a trade stand there offering test setups (rare but not unknown). Ask some of the bigger webstores for any tester blades they might be willing to send (again, rare but you might get lucky). Ask a coach or more experienced player who has seen you play. If all that fails, you're down to forum advice and guesswork. It's something, but not really a reliable way of getting what you need (even though you've done a great job describing what you're after). My advice echos what richrf says - avoid anything too extreme in terms of excessive speed, catapult, spin sensitivity. There have been some really good all-purpose rubbers released recently that fit in to this middle ground - Stiga Genesis, DHS Goldarc 5, Xiom Musa, Nexy Karis. For a case study, one of our lower-ranked players has just switched from Rakza 7 and boosted H3N to Goldarc 5 on both sides and the step down in catapult and spin sensitivity has made him a total wall. Incredibly consistent, silly errors vastly reduced. And GA5 is $23 a sheet from ttnpp, with good quality control (made in germany).
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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Really good suggestions in Andy Smith's post. Only thing to add is be aware of some of the weight differences in the rubber which may it may not affect your satisfaction. I tend to look for a slightly lighter rubber. Rubbers can be heavier because of higher density (hardness) or manufacturer boosting.
BTW, there are sales and discounts going on all the time on online shops so check them out when you are ready to purchase. Edited by richrf - 10/20/2017 at 10:17am |
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BeaverMD
Gold Member Joined: 11/09/2007 Location: Maryland, USA Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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You seem like a real cheapskate (like me!) so I will save you some time. Keep the Jonher-H. It's good unless there is warping or delamination (plies separating). If so, search on how to repair.
Do not waste your time with new generation rubbers as it will just give you a headache. Go here instead http://colestt.com
Under the inverted rubber section, I like the Air Illumina Alpha (buy Delta if you like a softer Mark V feel) on the FH and Air Defender on the BH. These will get your groove back in the game without breaking the bank. It will also give you a chance to actually be on the receiving end of what others are using and think "Wow, that guy's spin is incredible. I want what he's using." Welcome back! |
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Hi Rich,Andy, Beaver. .
Thanks, all you guys for the advice.... Sadly, where I am, vendors (online or offline) don't believe in giving out trial,demo, tester units... No trade store, not matter how big the tourney is ... So, it's down to mostly verbal advice and/or heresay. The Goldarc Series rubbers are darn expensive here, retailing for around $60, for the GA5.. On the other hand the DHS H3/H3 Neo retail at around $28-$30. |
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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A gap used to be wide, not long... I also had to leave the game for more than 10 years...back at it since 2007. BTW, playing your FH down the line from the BH side is what I do but only when forced to this desperate position - 70-90% of the time the opponent will easily block it to your wide FH side, end of story... To answer your questions, I would recommend that you get something like the Timo Boll Spirit blade (or one of the many clones from other vendors) with moderate fast modern rubbers, at max or 2.0 mm. It is a lot more fun playing this, compared to the old school, from our old times... After some time, you will be able to determine whether you want to play inverted both sides or maybe try pips, as the years may have limited our ability to quickly move in position. Best to you! One mor ething... do go into competition, it lets us be more realistic about our game.
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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SmackDAT
Platinum Member Joined: 01/01/2012 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 2231 |
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Yinhe Moon is a good starting rubber that is cheap
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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Mate, it's really cheap from ttnpp. $60 is insane! |
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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As as former Mark V user, I was never satisfied with how "catapulty" modern tensioned rubbers felt. They've made great strides, and the current and previous generation of ESN products especially, have a good short game as well as a spin and/or speed game. My current favorite rubber that plays like a classic, meaning allround, but is faster and spinnier is Andro Rasant. if you want a medium firm sponge, you can grab this discontinued Rasant 1.9mm from Megaspin.net at $35, i honestly think it is the best rubber at that price. or spend an extra $5 for the Rasanter R42 if you prefer something closer to Mark V in terms of softness (newer generation, same idea). |
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Okay, I should've let you'll know, right from the start, that I'm in India... So, shopping online from all the popular webstores, that have been recommended on this thread, attracts ridiculous shipping costs, which, at most times, is more than the cost of the rubber itself... Most of the rubbers recommended here are available in India (Local Online and Offline stores). However, at a higher price... The Andros here are available for around $40...
For my FH, I have narrowed it down to either Xiom Vega Europe or Tibhar Evolution EL-P Has anyone used DHS H3/Neo H3 ? What're your view on this rubber ? I'm considering it for my BH...
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col6628
Member Joined: 04/24/2016 Location: nottingham Status: Offline Points: 81 |
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hi, my name colin stop playing 16, started again 56 i am 59 now, play in local league div2 at first now in div 1, play in VETTS ov40, ov50,england, played in sweden european VETTS ov50. my first bat mark 5, long time ago. now i play with andro triber z , r47 bh, fh r47 2mm. get some coaching and practise practise, i spent hours just trying to get serves correct, still not right.my coach is APW46 moderator help me to improve my game. just enjoy playing thats the way to improve and practise. all the best trying to get rubbers correct and blade its a mine field.
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Hi Col6628, That's what I'd like to do, in the near future ... train with a coach... The place, where I play is a 10 min walk from home, but has a coach who does group coaching, only on weekends... mine field ... you said it!!
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the_theologian
Premier Member Joined: 01/11/2009 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 3895 |
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Which sponge thickness and hardness? |
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Hi,
Has anyone used the DHS Neo 3 Hurricane ?
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darucla
Super Member Joined: 07/30/2017 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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1 Xiom Vega Europe is very soft, very bouncy.
2 DHS Hurricane 3 Neo is very hard, not bouncy. Most people will use the H3 on the FH, and the softer rubber on the BH. This is a very common combination. Aliexpress normally offers free shipping from China, so check there (I'm in England, don't know if it varies by country). I had a break from age 14 to age 66, and now use H3 Provincial on FH and H3-50 on BH. Requires a very precise style and some strength, but I love it. But I don't know the blade you have: I use a DHS H301. Practice is more important.
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Hi Darucla,
I have a 20year+ Butterfly Joyner -H AN (OFF) blade.... Currently, I'm using a Friendship 729 rubber on my BH... Based on what I have read and heard, I feel, the DHS H3 Neo is kind of on the same lines(??) as the 729, but with some more speed and tackiness.... On the FH side, my game comprises of heavy top-spins/loops, push etc... However, I can't seem to generate enough pace, anymore.. I play close'ish to the table, so, I don't think I want a very fast rubber like Tibhar Evolution MX-P or Tenergy series... Once again, based on what I read and hear, rubbers like the Xiom Vega Europe, Tibhar Evolution EL-S/P seem to somewhat like (??) the Yasaka, with some additional speed, control etc ... Anyway, if it gets any further confusing, I think I'll just stick with new a Mark V and 729 |
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darucla
Super Member Joined: 07/30/2017 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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When I said I don't know the blade you are using, I meant, I have never used the BTY Joyner, so don't "know" it.
From my point of view, H3 (H3 Provincial more so) is better than 729 Super FX or Cream Transcend, both of which I have tried. You probably should try H3. But if pace is what you are lacking, H3 won't automatically give it to you. If you put in the effort, then yes. You may be better off with something a little more active. Perhaps 729 Battle non-tacky version (Battle 1). If you really are considering a tensor, then Xiom Vega Japan is probably more like what you need than Vega Europe. But, I stress again, practice is much more valuable than messing with equipment.
Edited by darucla - 10/24/2017 at 5:43pm |
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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I practice/play thrice a week, atleast for 1 -2 hours.. I'll increase the frequency and length, as I go along..
I'd prefer the added control & spingthat Europe Offers ... Japan seems to be faster...
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Hi,
I finally got my new Rubbers - DHS Neo Hurricane 3 & Mark V (Both Max) .... Price was one of the most important factors, both rubbers suited my budget. Plus, I got a chance to try DHS rubber, and rather unexpectedly, liked it not just on my BH, but also my FH.... The only down-side I feel is the weight...The DHS seems to be on the heavier side... But, nothing I can't get used to... I don't want to spend a lot, at this point... I figured, once my game improves, I can invest in another Rubber, like a Xiom Vega Euro etc... Anyway, many thanks to all for your suggestions and advice... Really appreciate it...
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Veet
Super Member Joined: 10/19/2017 Location: Googlaframchim Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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Hi...
It's now been almost 2 months since I've been using the Hurricane Neo3, and here's my experience, nd thoughts ...
In conclusion - I feel this rubber demands textbook technique, and brute force. If you've got both these, then can be awesome, otherwise aweful.... I may just switch to another rubbere, or an entirely new setup. On the MARK-V ... I think it's best days are behind it... It worked really well in the 38mm ball era... I'm not sure, if its got what it takes for these new balls... It's okay for beginner serious players.. thats all. |
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