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what do you picture as you execute your strokes ?

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max vdh View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10/04/2018 at 11:02am
I had been struggling recently with the BH loop but have done some improvements, my coach told me that used my forearm and wrist too much in my BH stroke.

To correct that I tried picturing my shoulder being the pivot point for my arm motion and good results showed up immediately. My FH loop was already really good and when I tried to picture that for the FH loop while still using a strong hip twist it worked great as well( ( I also usually think of my left leg as my lower body pivot point it helps with the twist )
Othen than that I like to picture my legs like springs so I always stand on my toes and it allows me to bend better and to move more effectively.

So I want to know what do you picture/imagine while playing and while you execute specific strokes ?

More experienced players probably don't picture anything anymore as it became muscle memory but if you can remember what you used to think about as you were developping it would be great help !



Edited by max vdh - 10/04/2018 at 11:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2018 at 2:00pm
Wow, that is just the opposite of everything I was taught about the Bh.

But if it works for you then that is great. Sometimes different key thoughts work for different players.

I visualize my hand/forearm as a door with the hinge at the elbow. The door closes in front of me as I backswing and then opens as I swing forward.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max vdh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2018 at 2:25pm
Thanks Mark

I also visualize my elbow as the pivot point on serve returns, fast rallies and flicks.
but if I do on a loop then it catches the net or goes long so I need the shoulder lock visualisation.
I guess it depends on the playstyle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jt99sf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2018 at 2:46pm
Net or edge !! Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2018 at 3:12pm
I close my eyes and visualize Mima Ito.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Amine1969 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2018 at 3:16pm
Mima Ito? Really?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Amine1969 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2018 at 3:17pm
I guess I'm the only one who visualizes Andy Murray then
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2018 at 4:25pm
Mr.Putin topless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2018 at 5:14pm
Shoot it like Ma Long, use your free arm to point where the bat will contact the ball and then swing.
This method is good for both backhand and forehand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote passifid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2018 at 5:34pm
When I have a good stroke I often find that i've been visualizing Wang Manyu or Tin Tin Ho.
The result is often impressive...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2018 at 8:37pm
Focus on some elements that give your stroke the quality that it has. You can either focus on a body part that you feel like is doing too little, or one that is generating a lot of quality. On forehand for example you could focus on something like your wrist, depending on your technique. But also something like your hips. You can't really use too much forearm in your backhand stroke. At least not if you're wrist is also working. Using more rotation on the backhand can add more power, but this kind of technique isn't really beneficial. You won't be able to use it close to the table. If you really use a lot of arm on the backhand and your acceleration is good, then go with that. The best backhands in the world only use arm acceleration to create quality. Harimoto, pitchford, fzd, Lin guoliang and so on. But of course you could go for a kreanga backhand:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 12:11am
TT Gold, I have a question, if you don't mind :)

When you say that the best backhands in the world only use arm acceleration to create quality, what do you mean by quality? Is it a combination of power, speed, spin, consistency, etc? Or is it a specific thing you're referring to?

I ask because I feel like quality is a combination of so many things, but since you said only to add quality, it seems like it's a secondary process, if you know what I mean.

Thanks!

P.S. I'm striving to have a backhand as good as yours one day, even if it's a weaker part of your game haha.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 4:25am
That's exactly what I mean by quality. Spin, speed, power and even things like length on the table and placement. Fzd for example has insane quality in his shots. He uses a very fast forearm acceleration and wrist combination. That way he can create a lot of power and speed. The ball also goes really deep into the table. Something that he is lacking would be variation, but that's his playstyle as Liu guoliang said. Harimoto has more speed and spin in his backhand. But it doesn't have as much power. There are always certain parts of the stroke one uses that make the stroke different than others. If someone uses more arm on a forehand he will probably have more spin in his forehand, while others use more hip and get more power. You gotta figure out what makes your stroke the stroke that it is. Once you understand what elements of your stroke make your stroke good and also what parts give your stroke a lack of quality, then it's up to you to work on the parts you like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 11:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PythonMonty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Harimoto [compared to FZD] has more speed and spin in his backhand. But it doesn't have as much power.

If Harimoto's backhand has more speed and spin then it has more power. For practical purposes, power in a table tennis shot equals speed plus spin. Depth of the shot on the table counts in terms of how much of the power gets to the opponent. So by power do you mean the depth of the shot? Or do you mean that FZD generates power in this backhand more efficiently, with faster recovery, etc.?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by PythonMonty PythonMonty wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Harimoto [compared to FZD] has more speed and spin in his backhand. But it doesn't have as much power.

If Harimoto's backhand has more speed and spin then it has more power. For practical purposes, power in a table tennis shot equals speed plus spin. Depth of the shot on the table counts in terms of how much of the power gets to the opponent. So by power do you mean the depth of the shot? Or do you mean that FZD generates power in this backhand more efficiently, with faster recovery, etc.?


I always wondering this as well. People talk about speed and power like they are two separate things. I don't get it. If speed means the speed of the ball, then what is power?

In my interpreting, speed in this case probably means timing. Early timing to be precise. The earlier you hit the ball, the less time your opponent has to react, so I guess some people call it speed. While power actually means the speed of the ball.

I can't be sure if it's what Tt Gold means, though.



Edited by balldance - 10/05/2018 at 12:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:

Originally posted by PythonMonty PythonMonty wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Harimoto [compared to FZD] has more speed and spin in his backhand. But it doesn't have as much power.


If Harimoto's backhand has more speed and spin then it has more power. For practical purposes, power in a table tennis shot equals speed plus spin. Depth of the shot on the table counts in terms of how much of the power gets to the opponent. So by power do you mean the depth of the shot? Or do you mean that FZD generates power in this backhand more efficiently, with faster recovery, etc.?


I always wondering this as well. People talk about speed and power like they are two separate things. I don't get it. If speed means the speed of the ball, then what is power?

In my interpreting, speed in this case probably means timing. Early timing to be precise. The earlier you hit the ball, the less time your opponent has to react, so I guess some people call it speed. While power actually means the speed of the ball.

I can't be sure if it's what Tt Gold means, though.




You can slap someone in the face, really fast right? But it wont hurt all that much.

Power is the force behind it. Like if someone did the same slap but with their weight behind it. Speed + mass etc.

So you can do speedy hits without much power, or speedy hits with a lot of force behind it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 1:31pm
Power is the ability to produce ball speed nothing more.

If you slap someone in the face really fast it will hurt like hell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote passifid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 1:34pm
What yes of course because you modify the amount of weight of your hand you hit someone with but not the ball. You hit it's entire weight every time.
A powerful shot has to be speed or a mixture of speed and spin unless you are somehow changing the weight of the ball then if you are let me know how wizard man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:


You can slap someone in the face, really fast right? But it wont hurt all that much.

Power is the force behind it. Like if someone did the same slap but with their weight behind it. Speed + mass etc.

So you can do speedy hits without much power, or speedy hits with a lot of force behind it.


I'm sorry but the ball doesn't carry mass (or any force behind it) in it. It has only speed, spin and its own weight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 1:53pm
When I talk about speed and power I mean two different things. If we look at players like matsudaira or koki niwa, they both play extremely fast off the bounce. But then we look at someone like wang liquin for example. They could have the same speed, but if you block or even counter topspin with a short motion, the fast shot from the jap players will be easier to block. You gotta experience the difference first hand. Someone plays really fast of the bounce, but it is easily blocked back. Then you block shots from someone else and you can really feel the racket even shaking. How so? But it's not only on off the bounce balls. Compare harimoto's mid distance backhand in training with fzd backhand. Harimoto's backhand is as fast, but Fzd's has more power. If speed is always speed, how can the jap players not keep up with other players playing with the same or less speed, but without more spin. I totally agree with obesechopper as well as balldance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 3:36pm
When evaluating ball quality I like to consider speed (of the ball), spin, and placement (depth and/or location).

When evaluating tactics I like to consider quickness. A push right off the bounce puts more pressure on opponent than waiting until the ball starts to drop. Same for blocks and loops.

I also think there is a perceptual problem in how we judge speed. If the ball takes longer to get to us we perceive it to be slower. But a faster ball may take longer to get to us not because it is slower, but because it has more distance to cover.

Maybe instead of power we should think more in terms of total energy. The ball has both energy due to its linear motion and from its rotational motion. How difficult it is to return is a result of the combination of the two.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 5:02pm
Power is energy. Energy is literally speed and spin. Spin is kinetic energy.

So there you go. Argument over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 5:20pm
Science disagrees with a lot of things that we, the players, perceive. Things like dwell time on different woods. Table tennis has a lot to do with feelings and that's something that should be taken into account here. I consider a more powerful shot harder to block for example. I always explain the difference between power and speed by talking about the feeling of the racket when blocking those shots. A fast ball feels comfortable when blocking, but a powerful shot feels uncomfortable when blocking. It's not the spin that makes it hard to block. I guess it's the way the racket responds to the ball. In feels like The racket is shaking a little and you have to put in more effort to put the ball on the table. I had a lot of guys say that there racket is shaking when blocking those shots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

When I talk about speed and power I mean two different things. If we look at players like matsudaira or koki niwa, they both play extremely fast off the bounce. But then we look at someone like wang liquin for example. They could have the same speed, but if you block or even counter topspin with a short motion, the fast shot from the jap players will be easier to block. You gotta experience the difference first hand. Someone plays really fast of the bounce, but it is easily blocked back. Then you block shots from someone else and you can really feel the racket even shaking. How so? But it's not only on off the bounce balls. Compare harimoto's mid distance backhand in training with fzd backhand. Harimoto's backhand is as fast, but Fzd's has more power. If speed is always speed, how can the jap players not keep up with other players playing with the same or less speed, but without more spin. I totally agree with obesechopper as well as balldance.


You are talking about how quickly they hit the ball, not how much speed they put into the ball, which is all power is in this context.

Fan zhendong hits the ball more powerfully than Harimoto i e. with more ball speed. Harimoto may hit it earlier in its trajectory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Science disagrees with a lot of things that we, the players, perceive. Things like dwell time on different woods. Table tennis has a lot to do with feelings and that's something that should be taken into account here. I consider a more powerful shot harder to block for example. I always explain the difference between power and speed by talking about the feeling of the racket when blocking those shots. A fast ball feels comfortable when blocking, but a powerful shot feels uncomfortable when blocking. It's not the spin that makes it hard to block. I guess it's the way the racket responds to the ball. In feels like The racket is shaking a little and you have to put in more effort to put the ball on the table. I had a lot of guys say that there racket is shaking when blocking those shots.


There are only two things, speed and spin. If a shot is harder to block it has more of one thing or the other, or both. There is not some other special property called power which disagrees with science, is neither speed or spin, and makes it harder to block. It is the spin or it is the speed. It can only be one of those two things (or both). It is the way you feel it on the racquet, but those are the two things you feel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 7:05pm
Ttgold said "play fast off the bounce" in his speed examples (niwa, and matsudaira). So if that is speed, which I can totally see, then power is the speed and spin of the ball, a completely different thing. It's absolutely possible to get beaten by someone who can simply play faster than you, even if in isolation every shot of yours has higher quality. If they are ready when the ball comes to them and you aren't, you lose.

Power is in evidence a lot more, and people enjoy practicing it, counterloopng from far like a real pro. Not many people practice playing super-fast, probably because it's more suited to multiball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 7:36pm
I read something about speed, spin and power a few years ago. I can't remember if it was liu guoliang commenting on his players, or just someone writing. If I remember correctly liu guoliang talked about want liquin, ma lin and wang hao. He said that wang liquin has power and speed, but lacks spin. Whilst ma Lin had speed and spin, but was lacking power. Wang hao was the next generation combining all three elements in his forehand. Couldn't find it online, but maybe someone also read this and remembers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PythonMonty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 10:28pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

I read something about speed, spin and power a few years ago. I can't remember if it was liu guoliang commenting on his players, or just someone writing. If I remember correctly liu guoliang talked about want liquin, ma lin and wang hao. He said that wang liquin has power and speed, but lacks spin. Whilst ma Lin had speed and spin, but was lacking power. Wang hao was the next generation combining all three elements in his forehand. Couldn't find it online, but maybe someone also read this and remembers.

I've read this, or something like it, and it's not the only time I've heard pro coaches or players talking about power as something different from speed plus spin. I don't doubt that they're making some kind of meaningful observation but it's hard to know what it is because strictly speaking it's nonsense. A ball flying through the air can have speed (translational momentum) and spin (rotational momentum). And for practical purposes (ignoring energy gained and lost as heat as the ball deforms on impact with racket and table and then resumes its round shape), that's all there is. This basic physics is directly connected to the feel of the ball as it hits your racket. A "heavy" ball feels heavy because it's moving very fast, or because it's spinning very fast, or some combination of both. And that's it. There's no other mysterious extra component of power that could cause your racket to shake more when blocking for FZD versus Harimoto...

...unless by power you mean something that doesn't belong to the moving ball itself. Such as where it lands on the table. Or on your racket. Or how quickly off the bounce it was hit. Or how ready you are to receive it. A deceptive, off the bounce shot that lands deep on the table can "overpower" you more easily than a faster, spinnier shot that you're ready and waiting for. But that's just a figure of speech.

So I'm still left wondering what you and LGL are talking about because it seems interesting. But power is the wrong word for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2018 at 11:42pm
There's basically just a few elements to shot quality, i.e how early the opponent hits it, how much power (ball speed+spin), and the spin to speed ratio, and of course placement. It's not rocket science. It's much harder to block incoming topspins with very high levels of spin and speed (which is usually what is described as high power shots).

Harimoto's shots are taken earlier which is why it appears faster, but doesn't necessarily have a lot of power especially compared to guys like Fan Zhendong for e.g... I believe if you compare the balls coming from Harimoto and Fan Zhendong, Fan Zhendong also imparts a lot more spin onto the ball compared to Harimoto at the same ball speeds which makes it "heavier".

I believe lots of interviews are mistranslated because words in the Chinese language have many subtleties which don't translate well...

Edited by blahness - 10/05/2018 at 11:47pm
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