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Rating Estimation: Vet Penholder vs Junior Looper |
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Ranger-man
Gold Member Joined: 03/27/2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 987 |
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Posted: 12/29/2018 at 10:46am |
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This...
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Joey played very well.. My control is very low against low spin.. My pushblocking depends on my opponents spin and he didn't give me any. Great strategy and execution. Medium pips hitter is not a good matchup for me.. got a bad draw against a style that gives me a hard time. had my worst loss ever to a similar style.. Tadao Inui, a 1800 penhold pushblocker.. Playing no spin is not something that most players can execute as well as Joey did.. Great play and great coaching by Brian. Joey hardly ever pushed. He went forward on both, backhand and forehand with little to no spin. Edited by Pushblocker - 12/28/2018 at 4:45pm |
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ghostzen
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My bad appogies.
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smackman
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The trouble with thread hijacking is it gets a bit hard to know who and what is being commented on
maybe better to start new one's yourselves |
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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I think Chris is like 27 or 28 always been a big lad wouldn't say over the hill but not the normal statue for a very high level player. I think he has some videos on youtube of him playing in the super leagues. Having played against him on more than one occasion I can say that Chris is class and also very clever in his play. Really good hands and control. Also if I'm right Chris is still the overall UK grand Prix champion last year. |
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TT newbie
Gold Member Joined: 11/25/2011 Location: Far Far Away Status: Offline Points: 1391 |
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When I said "some juniors" I meant the best ones in my club. The best one has just won the region Best 8 Tournament and I´m pretty sure he is between 2400-2500.
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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I'm always careful about saying something like that. Just look at the comments regarding Dewitt or Pushblocker when people first see their videos. I was thinking about this whole game of guessing the rating. I can't guess ratings well but I can make some generalizations about viewing any video to judge playing level: 1) You can mostly judge the quality of a player's technique, such as their loops or pushes. However, there are a ton of players who are very good right up to 2300 with awful looking technique. 2) You can judge the quality of a player's serves, especially checking whether they're long or short. This gives a better indication because better players always improve with their serves, but videos can't always give you a good sense of how deceptive a serve is. 3) You can judge the intensity of a player. How well do they move around? How focused are they during the points? Do they get ready for each point? This is where I lowered my estimate of the penhold player. 4) You can judge the tactics of the player. This is where the player against the penhold player in the last video looked bad. People should be able to anticipate consequences for their shot selection and should adjust their strategies accordingly. Surprisingly, you can find videos of 2500 level players with superb technique and then in their matches you go "what on earth was that guy thinking?" Those evaluations don't really tell you a players rating, because some people have intangibles that make them either more or less successful in tournament play. By the way, I never video myself. If I did, it would cause me to immediately give up playing altogether.
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ChichoFicho
Platinum Member Joined: 06/24/2009 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 2118 |
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I am pretty sure no junior under 2100 would "destroy" any of them without problems. The penholder has played at the European Vets and has wins against very strong opponents. |
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TT newbie
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Low level from both players. Some juniors in my club would destroy any of them without problems.
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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That's a disturbing video. Pen holder is just so lackadaisical. Every time I watch him I get the feeling he'd rather be doing anything than be there. And the guy he played in his video just kept making obvious tactical mistakes. It's like he was determined to do what he wanted to do without thinking through the consequences.
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ChichoFicho
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Here is another video of the red shirt vet.
Edited by ChichoFicho - 12/25/2018 at 2:59pm |
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vvk1
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Fixed YT links. |
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Egghead
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His bh really made the killing here. Very very interesting, since the introduction of 40+ ball, I found that the bh rally really troublesome.
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BH-Man
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You are prolly not too far off, and FYI, I have jammed my foot deep in my mouth on the forums more that you have. I am not afraid to speak my mind, and sometimes I (or others) found BH-Man was wrong.
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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So the first match was Daniel versus Martin, but I don't know which is which. The one is red has an unusual style: his loops are full arm swings, but he throws the arms more like swinging a whip. Traditional Asian (Chinese or Korean) full arm loops are more precise than that. And red shirt also stood very upright, and his blocks were very passive. I mean, ultimately he won the match and he made some great shots along the way, but I could never imagine someone being coached to play like that.
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benfb
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Well, he doesn't practice or train ever. In fact, he told me he's trying to learn to play smarter because he doesn't have the physical fitness level and freshness of training that he should have. As for the doubles -- he was saddled with a low-level hack. Actually, I've concluded that it's very hard on the higher rated partner when you have a much weaker partner. They always feel the need to kill the ball before their weak partner even touches the ball. This, of course, is not a good strategy for winning.
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Slowhand
Super Member Joined: 11/08/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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Well okay, BH-Man, you have a point. But many unforced errors against R. Dewitt's deadball sleight of hand only appear to be unforced. Same for Kanoya against Eugene Wang who changes speed and spin well enough to get a 2800 player swatting backhands 4 feet off the table. As far as this video rating estimation goes, it's fun but I'm not good at it and it wouldn't surprise me if I'm off by a few hundred points. As long as I'm within 200 I'll claim success and say I told you so.
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Vince64
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ustabletennisresults.com
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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What makes both matches deceiving is that all four players are over-the-hill and don't have the fitness or drive they probably did when they were younger. By comparison, I take lessons from a Chinese coach who was around 2700 when he was active and whose rating is now in the low 2600s (he's around 30 and only coaches). He looks much stronger than Chris, but that may be because he's still fit, so that he moves quickly and precisely around the table. The guy playing Chris never had a chance to display his skills, so that's why I couldn't guess on him.
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Makelele
Super Member Joined: 11/28/2009 Status: Offline Points: 416 |
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Uups, FruitLoop, sorry for spoiling that! I assumed that as the name of Chris Doran was in the video and he is relatively known for some people, there was no surprise about his level.
Edited by Makelele - 12/24/2018 at 5:28pm |
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FruitLoop
Super Member Joined: 09/20/2018 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 405 |
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Fair play Ben, you have a good eye, you estimated decently higher than what I thought people might guess. That said you are still low for the 3 players you guessed I reckon (obviously they don't have USATT ratings so there is no correct answer as such). The guys in the first video are top 100 in England (78th and 50th atm). They are both probably on a par with, or even stronger than, the top cadets nationally. So comparing to the top cadets in the US, where I am making the assumption that top USA Vs top English cadets is close and these guys are around 2400 probably. In the second video, tbh the shorter man I have a hard time guessing. But the taller guy is Chris Doran, English international, plays in Belgium Super league as someone above me let out of the bag. He doesn't compete much internationally but he has been ranked around 300 in the world. Here's him beating top 300 player David McBeath https://youtu.be/he-xsAehgTk . Here's him beating Thibaut Darcis an upcoming Belgian player roughly top 300-400 in the world: https://youtu.be/CnPlwXyvhd8 . So probably the answer is 2600+. I reckon your guess of 2350+ would be way above average for forum guessers though. The whole point I was trying to make with the examples is, until you get to the top top level, with polished "standard" techniques all round, everyone underestimates what standard they are watching hugely online. If you are an 1800 player. Film your matches. You might be amazed how bad you look compared to what's in your head. An actual genuine 1600 match looks like absolute basement recreational TT to people online. Edited by FruitLoop - 12/24/2018 at 4:42pm |
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Makelele
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Isn't the tall guy in FruitLoop' s second video the guy who plays at the Super Division in Belgium?
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benfb
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No one wants to comment on how much Joey and Olivier look alike? Give Joey a LP paddle and you could swear they were clones playing each other. Maybe they should play doubles together? I could imagine the opposing team: "that's the player with LP, right? Wait! It's the other guy with LP! Oh, no! I got it backwards... that's it, I'm going to shave my head and wear black clothes from now on."
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benfb
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These were pretty entertaining matches. I started with the first match and at first I thought these guys can't be over 1800, then about the end of the first game, I was thinking they reminded me of my 2000 friends from Seattle in playing style and skill. Then in the second and third games I saw some rallies that were pretty impressive. So now my inclination is to estimate their skills sets in the 2100-2200 range but they don't always play their skill set. A lot of points they look nonchalant or lazy. Maybe age and too much weight in the middle? I enjoyed the second match as well, but it's harder to reach a conclusion about ratings because the tall guy is so much stronger than the short guy. He appears to have a pretty complete skill set -- maybe 2350? -- but he makes some mistakes. I have a friend who falls into this class and I find that it comes down to slowing down with more age and more weight, and sometimes also due to chronic injuries. The tall guy is the one I would enjoy playing the most but also the one who would dispose of me most quickly. I would also rank the tall player the strongest of the four players in the two videos.
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ChichoFicho
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My initial estimate for both of them is ~2150. That particular match ended with a 3:2 (11:9 in the 5th game) win for the shakehand player.
Edited by ChichoFicho - 12/24/2018 at 2:19pm |
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cole_ely
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Lp almost always make video rating difficult. No sponge lp at least.
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pgpg
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I guess that's the match that bumped Pushblocker into lower division in Super Giant RR at the US Open! His opponent was remarkably not bothered that much by LP returns (from a few early minutes that I watched)...
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USATT: ~1810
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FruitLoop
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Here's almost 2000 Vs almost 2200. https://youtu.be/OjLIJoTkfZc
I think if posted anonymously the guesses would be 1600 or so. |
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pgpg
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We tend to overestimate ourselves and underestimate others. Watching yourself on video is very helpful in that regard (but can cause deep mental scars).
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USATT: ~1810
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cole_ely
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I had a customer many years ago who watched videos and was sure his initial rating and his friends would all be over 1800 once they hit a rated tournament. I believe his initial rating was around 800.
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