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supination in BH |
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ma_t14
Beginner Joined: 12/07/2023 Location: C Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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Posted: 12/07/2023 at 4:55am |
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Hi, I'm really sorry for resurrecting this old (but gold) thread. Do you by any chance still have these videos? Links appear to be broken
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mickd
Forum Moderator Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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I've been watching random TT videos again, and this is one I've seen before, but it demonstrates supination.
Thought I'd just leave it here for anyone who might want to see :)
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2337 |
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OK, cheers
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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It is pronation except the ball is on the other side of the bat!
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2337 |
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Say a player attempts a BH push, the type where he/she 'scoops' the ball. It appears to be the opposite of supination but not pronation. What is that wrist movement called?
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Glad it made it clear for you! It was kinda awkward recording the FH ones because to keep the camera steady you can't have body rotation lol... For FH the pronation is definitely even less visible but if you examine the actions of top players like Fan Zhendong it's definitely there. It's actually in Chinese table tennis literature, the term is 手臂内旋(pronation) and 手臂外旋(supination), just that I never understood that term and always skipped past it :(
Edited by blahness - 02/21/2019 at 9:15pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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mickd
Forum Moderator Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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Thank you! You separated them very nicely. Very easy to see. I'm still not a huge fan of the forehand one, but the backhand one just looks and feels right. Maybe in time haha. I watched a Chinese Stiga video last night and the lady in the video did have like a supination like movement as she tightened her grip during contact. It doesn't look as obvious as the backhand when she's hitting the ball, but when she was demonstrating slowly, she mentioned it.
Thank you. I'm going to have to meditate on it a little more. I feel like I'm getting there with the forehand too, but not quite seeing it clearly yet!
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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For me somehow the understanding of pronation and supination has helped me time it much better. In general you always want solid contact, so in my mind it's always very important to achieve solid contact before pronating/supination through the ball.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yes.... I've also added a slight pronation action to my BH push and it resulted in a significant increase in spin too! If you time it well it can be a very small movement, and you can adjust the pronation timing to create a fake push (push with no spin!)
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2337 |
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This is an excellent thread. Well done to all posters
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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Slowhand
Super Member Joined: 11/08/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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Ideally linear in the direction of translation and curvilinear around the axis of spin. This gives the best chance of making good contact (unless you have perfect timing in which case almost anything should work).
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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To be pnachtwey-precise, the proper term should be curvilinear. Strictly speaking, most if not all strokes in TT involve a combination of translation and rotation.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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The forehand is a large circle for most people even if they don't think that way . In general, circular for spin, line for speed. And you can find a balance in between.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Here is a playlist of me shadowing the various movements discussed in this thread as promised! Hope it helps!
BH: FH:
Edited by blahness - 02/21/2019 at 4:27am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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mickd
Forum Moderator Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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I know NL has always advocated circular strokes, but up until now I've always been more of a "straight line" strokes type of guy. I think I'm starting to favor circular strokes too, at least for the backhand. Yesterday when coaching one of my students, I started to use a circular analogy. Maybe your light preaching is starting to wear off on me haha. Watching that LHTT video was also very insightful too. Thanks.
This supination thread has really gotten me thinking in a completely different way, so thank you blahness for bringing it up.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Fixed.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hi Makelele, I've recorded some segments away from the table just in my room which should show it quite clear! Just need to figure out the Youtube thing...haven't done it in ages! But if you follow the diagrams I've posted, for FH it should be pronation + radial/ulnar plane wrist movement, and you'll get it. There's always a certain amount of flexion/extension but they shouldn't be the main component of your stroke. Edited by blahness - 02/20/2019 at 12:46am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Ieyasu
Super Member Joined: 07/18/2015 Location: DPR Kalifornia Status: Offline Points: 203 |
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Edited by Ieyasu - 02/19/2019 at 10:33pm |
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Makelele
Super Member Joined: 11/28/2009 Status: Offline Points: 416 |
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Blahness, do you know of any video showing it explicitly for forehand, like the TTR Hunter one does for backhand?
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hi Makele, actually if anything the supination will greatly increase the amount of spin you produce. There's a wrong way to do it where your wrist primarily goes from flexion to extension, that will kill off spin but is effective for flat hits. Instead your wrist should move along the radial/ulnar deviation plane, and you add in supination, that's when you get max spin. It is exactly the same for FH loop except the direction is reversed. For FH you pronate and wrist moves along the radial/ulnar deviation plane for max spin.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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ericd937
Gold Member Joined: 06/01/2012 Location: Saigon, Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 1191 |
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Current Setup: TBS FH T80/BH D80
Official USATT Rating 1815 Current estimated level: 1800-1900. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Edited by NextLevel - 02/20/2019 at 8:38am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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mickd
Forum Moderator Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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Yes, please! My backhand is horrendous at the moment, and everyone is different, so maybe this is the magic sauce that helps me just 'get it'
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Makelele
Super Member Joined: 11/28/2009 Status: Offline Points: 416 |
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As you said in the topic about WRM translations, in this video the Korean guy who appears after the 4 minute with Simon Sandals (TTR-Hunter) seems to talk about the supination you are discussing here.
It would be great if someone could translate that from German, but anyway images are clearly enough to show the concept. My question is, doesn't this technique mean a significative loss in spin (in favour of more flatter power)? |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Haha you've got a point there.... oh well for me I think will be above 2000 is a good player
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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It is very subtle but very important! For me I have always supinated a bit, but not being aware of its potential I never treated it with the amount of respect it deserves, and I kept thinking I needed to move my forearm faster or to use more waist or legs, etc.... But once I was aware of it I could time the impact, use a fuller supination movement, and there was almost a magnitude increase in the power and explosiveness of my BH, I would say that without proper supination you won't be able to loopkill effortlessly. Suddenly I had full confidence in applying as much power I wanted from the legs and body rotation I wanted without any fear of missing. If you played badminton or tennis, the pronation for FH and supination for BH is taught explicitly and given attention as one of the primary power sources in strokes...
Edited by blahness - 02/18/2019 at 8:50pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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The bat angle goes from closed during backswing to open as you unarch (straighten) your back (even if you are not doing anything on the bat) which is the confusing part. During contact it should be relatively open, then during the followthrough if you're doing the supination correctly it should be closed. Let me make a video of a shadow stroke later today to illustrate.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I think one has to be good at counterhitting first before adding this in...as NextLevel mentioned the elbow position, body rotation, use of legs are more important issues... But once the counterhitting is solid, this will create an order of magnitude increase in the spin and explosiveness imo.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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ericd937
Gold Member Joined: 06/01/2012 Location: Saigon, Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 1191 |
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Whats a high level player? When I was around 1100, I thought 1500 level guys were really good. When I got to 1500, I thought man, those 1800-1900 level guys are really good. Now that I'm around 2000ish playing level, 2200-2300 seems pretty good and 2400-2500 and higher feels like a truly high level player(I have no chance lol).
Edited by ericd937 - 02/18/2019 at 7:47pm |
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Current Setup: TBS FH T80/BH D80
Official USATT Rating 1815 Current estimated level: 1800-1900. |
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