Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - the equipment frustration
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login
tabletennis11.com

the equipment frustration

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
pingpungpeng View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 12/14/2017
Location: chaila
Status: Offline
Points: 879
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: the equipment frustration
    Posted: 06/16/2019 at 5:25pm
So after viscaria + t05
After joola rhyzer + tibhar chila
After donic persson powerplay + donic coppa gold
After dhs long 5 + t05
You name it, I tried it....

I went to the slowest equipment on planet earth.
Tibhar lebesson, sanwei t88-I fh, sanwei target bh.

And yesterday I lost to all the guys who have a similar level to mine.
3-0, 3-1
It wasn't very close.

Conclusion?

Equipment DOES NOT MATTER.

I can play with anything inverted and it doesn't make a difference.
The difference is how often I train and how intensively I do.

There, I said the truth, now you can start talking about mjamja's shadow tt in the toilet followed by kayaking in the amazonas and getting his racket eaten by a crocodile.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
purpletiesto View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/19/2017
Location: Perth
Status: Offline
Points: 242
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote purpletiesto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/16/2019 at 5:50pm
But you didn't try dignics... How can you be so sure? 
Back to Top
serr View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 09/10/2018
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 150
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote serr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/16/2019 at 6:25pm
So you went for a slower racket and immediately started losing. That implies equipment does matter, I don't know what your logic here is.
Back to Top
pingpungpeng View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 12/14/2017
Location: chaila
Status: Offline
Points: 879
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/16/2019 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by serr serr wrote:

So you went for a slower racket and immediately started losing. That implies equipment does matter, I don't know what your logic here is.


No, I played with the slow setup many times.
In the beginning I thought maybe it made a small difference, cause I had a couple of good victories (I always play with the same guys inthe club)
Yesterday it was clear.
It doesn't matter.
What matters is how often I play, how much I train, how fast I am, how agile I am...


Edited by pingpungpeng - 06/16/2019 at 6:38pm
Back to Top
Ieyasu View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/18/2015
Location: DPR Kalifornia
Status: Offline
Points: 203
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/16/2019 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

What matters is how often I play, how much I train, how fast I am, how agile I am...

Yep... just watch Lubomir Pistej play with a hard bat. I think he could destroy most forum members with it.
Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2709
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/16/2019 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:


Conclusion?

Equipment DOES NOT MATTER.

The sentence is incomplete. It should say "Equipment does not matter for ME" (meaning you).

I can think of many people who's playing style is not much affected by choice of rubber.  In fact, mjamja's recent posts of FH choice of rubber (it doesn't seem to matter which he uses) may reflect that for *him* and "his style*, the choice of rubber doesn't matter.  Even in that case, there are limits; all the rubbers he's tried have sticky top sheets and I'm not sure how it would affect his game if he changed to something radically different.

The real point is that the choice of rubbers for amateurs is very personal, because our styles and techniques tend to be very unique to each of us.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14335
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/16/2019 at 11:09pm
I would say that equipment matters in that sufficiently bad equipment choices can make you worse. 

I would also say that there are gazillions of blades and rubbers made for pretty much the same kind of player and that given a bit of time to get used to the subtle changes needed to accommodate the properties of any one blade rubber combination, the following will happen: 

You will still be you.
Back to Top
vanjr View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 08/19/2004
Location: Corpus Christi
Status: Offline
Points: 1364
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2019 at 7:36am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I would say that equipment matters in that sufficiently bad equipment choices can make you worse. 

I would also say that there are gazillions of blades and rubbers made for pretty much the same kind of player and that given a bit of time to get used to the subtle changes needed to accommodate the properties of any one blade rubber combination, the following will happen: 

You will still be you.

well said. equipment matters. training matters more. you can make things worse, but lots of equipment choices that are more similar than dissimilar.
Back to Top
fmarek View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/08/2018
Location: Sydney
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fmarek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2019 at 8:18am
Please someone explain this person that there are 2 camps out there: 

C: tacky hard "dead" rubber + flexible blade 
E: grippy bouncy rubber + stiff blade.

People would do mixes and variations to compensate for their weaknesses and to emphasise strengths.

Jumping in between these two classic categories is not gonna work "out of the box". In that sense equipment choice matter a lot.

I agree with OP to great extend that t05 or Dignic or Rakza (you name your tensor) - it does not matter as long as you are in the category E. 
Similarly,  Hurricane or 729 or Sanwei - all have minor differences and easily adjusted in 2 weeks time. But you make sure to stay in category C.

Who needs training these days LOL !? Ask forum member how to deal with spin and off you go. Oh, foot work. Right. Well screw it, just buy another faster racket ;)

P.S.
People are asking / inviting me to join competitions season. My response is - "not yet, I rather spend all these fee money with my coach then come back next season and beat you having Sanwei FEXTRA ($23) blade and Yinhe Mercury 2 rubbers ($7 x 2)
729 Green Goblin 5, FH: 729 Battle II National H39, BH: Palio HK1997 Gold.
DHS Long 5, FH: 729 Battle II Gold H40, BH: Nittaku C1
Back to Top
pingpungpeng View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 12/14/2017
Location: chaila
Status: Offline
Points: 879
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2019 at 11:48am
which leads me to truth number 2.

it doesn't matter if this season I'm training like a maniac, if I spent 5000 dollars on private training, if I went to 3 training clinics.
if next season I barely played I will suck regardless of the training I did the previous year and whatever equipment I am using at the moment.

what matters is how much I trained/played/how fit I am close to the point in time when I am playing.
close I mean 1 month ago or less.

training done in previous years helps a bit, but it has much much much less weight than recent training time.

now you can go back to talking about which blade is good for the 9th ball when the air is humid and I am playing with a nittaku 2 star abs airbag polykamousious ball.
Back to Top
tom View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 11/18/2013
Location: canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3016
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2019 at 11:51am
Originally posted by purpletiesto purpletiesto wrote:

But you didn't try dignics... How can you be so sure? 
funny
Back to Top
wilkinru View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/28/2015
Location: Las Vegas
Status: Offline
Points: 604
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2019 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:


training done in previous years helps a bit, but it has much much much less weight than recent training time.


Hmm. Well if someone put in a lot of work at one point and gained a greater understanding/ability in TT...is it like a riding bike? I think so. I think once you get that better forehand (or whatever) you never really lose it.

What the training up to the event does is make sure the contact is solid, timing is correct, equipment adjustments and over all TT fitness.


Equipment matters to me - a little bit. I can't use Chinese inverted rubber (or pips or anti). My counter-hitting and pushing just dies. I'm used to the euro/jp catapult. Nothing wrong with Chinese rubber, but it is just a little too different to quickly switch. Now given practically any inverted euro/jp rubber I pretty much play the same and I'm sure could adjust in a few hours and in that sense, you are quite right. Body, footwork, ball reading, returning, serving, all of that matters so much more.




TB ZLF
inverted
inverted
Back to Top
Fulanodetal View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/28/2013
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1223
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2019 at 1:54pm
For a beginner trying to learn to loop properly, it would be an impossible task if he/she was using this equipment:




Try looping with these things...its impossible for a beginner. How can you teach looping to someone if the equipment does not allow the person to loop?

EQUIPMENT DOES MATTER!

Otherwise we would all be using the same freaking bat and the same freaking rubbers. The less expensive ones.

Yes at some point the difference is minimal. But for a pro, those differences, even if imperceptible to the casual club player, mean a lot!

 Yes they can beat a casual club player with an iphone or a sandal, whatever,but when they are facing another pro, equipment plays an important role.

FdT

Back to Top
SmackDAT View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 01/01/2012
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 2231
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2019 at 2:47pm
I think the word you are all looking for is diminishing returns
Zhang Jike ALC AN (88g)
Tenergy 05 Hard (2.1, B)
Tenergy 19 (2.1, R)
https://goo.gl/bFWoxW
Back to Top
SmackDAT View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 01/01/2012
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 2231
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2019 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by serr serr wrote:

So you went for a slower racket and immediately started losing. That implies equipment does matter, I don't know what your logic here is.
+1
Zhang Jike ALC AN (88g)
Tenergy 05 Hard (2.1, B)
Tenergy 19 (2.1, R)
https://goo.gl/bFWoxW
Back to Top
pingpungpeng View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 12/14/2017
Location: chaila
Status: Offline
Points: 879
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2019 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

For a beginner trying to learn to loop properly, it would be an impossible task if he/she was using this equipment:




Try looping with these things...its impossible for a beginner. How can you teach looping to someone if the equipment does not allow the person to loop?

EQUIPMENT DOES MATTER!

Otherwise we would all be using the same freaking bat and the same freaking rubbers. The less expensive ones.

Yes at some point the difference is minimal. But for a pro, those differences, even if imperceptible to the casual club player, mean a lot!

 Yes they can beat a casual club player with an iphone or a sandal, whatever,but when they are facing another pro, equipment plays an important role.

FdT



I'm only talking about inverted rubbers.
I said it many times....
Back to Top
FruitLoop View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 09/20/2018
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 405
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2019 at 7:08pm
It does matter but just, once you get into the "reasonable" realm of proper equipment it does not matter much.
Back to Top
TT newbie View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/25/2011
Location: Far Far Away
Status: Offline
Points: 1391
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2019 at 7:24pm
Of course equipment matters, it makes a big change in the strokes a player must execute to win points.
I have a very clear example, my main setup is Ovtcharov Carbospeed + Omega V Tour + T05.
But I wanted to try a backup blade I have (Ma Lin Carbon) and glued an unboosted H3N + AK47 Yellow. This thing simply did not have power enough to win the points I´m used to do. So, I was forced to put more power and errors were multiplied. Lost 2 matches in a row to my practice partner, whose level is the same of mine.
Then got back to my main setup and won the third match winning points the way I always do.
Back to Top
pingpungpeng View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 12/14/2017
Location: chaila
Status: Offline
Points: 879
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2019 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

Of course equipment matters, it makes a big change in the strokes a player must execute to win points.
I have a very clear example, my main setup is Ovtcharov Carbospeed + Omega V Tour + T05.
But I wanted to try a backup blade I have (Ma Lin Carbon) and glued an unboosted H3N + AK47 Yellow. This thing simply did not have power enough to win the points I´m used to do. So, I was forced to put more power and errors were multiplied. Lost 2 matches in a row to my practice partner, whose level is the same of mine.
Then got back to my main setup and won the third match winning points the way I always do.


Well of course you need time to get used to the new equipment.
But after you do, you might find nothing has changed.

Today played some more with the setup of the humble man.
Lebesson, t88-I, target
Won some, lost some.... In the end, nothing has changed.
Back to Top
Basquests View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 08/29/2016
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 520
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2019 at 4:14am
They need to teach rational thinking and the scientific method at school. 

A better educated population reaps rewards everywhere, most importantly in TT discourse 


Edited by Basquests - 06/18/2019 at 4:15am
Back to Top
dajdosta View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 01/21/2015
Location: Croatia
Status: Offline
Points: 114
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dajdosta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2019 at 1:34pm
This is wrong in many aspects
Back to Top
dajdosta View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 01/21/2015
Location: Croatia
Status: Offline
Points: 114
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dajdosta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2019 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

which leads me to truth number 2.

it doesn't matter if this season I'm training like a maniac, if I spent 5000 dollars on private training, if I went to 3 training clinics.
if next season I barely played I will suck regardless of the training I did the previous year and whatever equipment I am using at the moment.

what matters is how much I trained/played/how fit I am close to the point in time when I am playing.
close I mean 1 month ago or less.

training done in previous years helps a bit, but it has much much much less weight than recent training time.

now you can go back to talking about which blade is good for the 9th ball when the air is humid and I am playing with a nittaku 2 star abs airbag polykamousious ball.

This is wrong in many aspects
Back to Top
piligrim View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 06/21/2011
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 5293
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piligrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2019 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

Of course equipment matters, it makes a big change in the strokes a player must execute to win points.
I have a very clear example, my main setup is Ovtcharov Carbospeed + Omega V Tour + T05.
But I wanted to try a backup blade I have (Ma Lin Carbon) and glued an unboosted H3N + AK47 Yellow. This thing simply did not have power enough to win the points I´m used to do. So, I was forced to put more power and errors were multiplied. Lost 2 matches in a row to my practice partner, whose level is the same of mine.
Then got back to my main setup and won the third match winning points the way I always do.




because you have to get used to new racket. If you will play with Ma Lin Carbon few weeks you will get same results as with Carbospeed :)
Back to Top
jonyer1980 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/30/2008
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 1598
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonyer1980 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2019 at 6:01pm
I can't believe  how some people ate able to extract any conclusion that soon ejing from one set-up to another.  Even EJ pros state that spend a half a year  in order to master any testing blade.

How you can be so daring to have that early conclusions with a couple of matches with your club partners?

I think that requires much more extended testing& longer time to get a proper conclusion. 


Edited by jonyer1980 - 06/18/2019 at 6:03pm
Rosewood V FL

Nittaku Fastarc G1-FH

Stiga DNA Pro-S MAX BH


Avoid any Butterfly stuff... at abusive prices. Raw power without control means nothing
Back to Top
tom View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 11/18/2013
Location: canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3016
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2019 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by jonyer1980 jonyer1980 wrote:

I can't believe  how some people ate able to extract any conclusion that soon ejing from one set-up to another.  Even EJ pros state that spend a half a year  in order to master any testing blade.

How you can be so daring to have that early conclusions with a couple of matches with your club partners?

I think that requires much more extended testing& longer time to get a proper conclusion. 
I thought the goal of EJs are to go thru as many equipement as quickly as possible Smile
Back to Top
pingpungpeng View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 12/14/2017
Location: chaila
Status: Offline
Points: 879
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2019 at 6:58pm
Originally posted by jonyer1980 jonyer1980 wrote:

I can't believe  how some people ate able to extract any conclusion that soon ejing from one set-up to another.  Even EJ pros state that spend a half a year  in order to master any testing blade.

How you can be so daring to have that early conclusions with a couple of matches with your club partners?

I think that requires much more extended testing& longer time to get a proper conclusion. 

it's just that you don't read.
I said I played many times with this chinese setup.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14335
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2019 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

I think the word you are all looking for is diminishing returns


Borrowing a term from cycling, people who EJ are often looking for "marginal gains" as they switch from one blade to another and one rubber to another, often among items with quite similar properties.  Every once in awhile someone finds one.  But a lot of the time it is just an endless cycle and, as someone else mentioned, a lot of people switch around pretty quickly.  Actually, at one point I did that a lot, often deciding after a single session that a particular rubber was not going to work out (but I at least I had more or less decided on Butterfly ALC blades a long time ago).  In retrospect, a big waste of time and money.

At some point I just got tired of trying new stuff, and have sold most of the stuff I will never use.

(By the way, I still have two Ovtcharov True Carbon ST blades if anyone is interested).

* The concept of marginal gains in road cycling as propounded by British Cycling and later Team Sky is that if you make enough tiny changes that give you a barely detectable advantage -- a gram here, a couple of watts there, they will add up enough to amount to a significant edge.  Problem is that in TT that aren't that many things we can mess with.


Edited by Baal - 06/18/2019 at 7:48pm
Back to Top
jackwong23 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 08/14/2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1912
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2019 at 1:53am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

I think the word you are all looking for is diminishing returns


Borrowing a term from cycling, people who EJ are often looking for "marginal gains" as they switch from one blade to another and one rubber to another, often among items with quite similar properties.  Every once in awhile someone finds one.  But a lot of the time it is just an endless cycle and, as someone else mentioned, a lot of people switch around pretty quickly.  Actually, at one point I did that a lot, often deciding after a single session that a particular rubber was not going to work out (but I at least I had more or less decided on Butterfly ALC blades a long time ago).  In retrospect, a big waste of time and money.

At some point I just got tired of trying new stuff, and have sold most of the stuff I will never use.

(By the way, I still have two Ovtcharov True Carbon ST blades if anyone is interested).

* The concept of marginal gains in road cycling as propounded by British Cycling and later Team Sky is that if you make enough tiny changes that give you a barely detectable advantage -- a gram here, a couple of watts there, they will add up enough to amount to a significant edge.  Problem is that in TT that aren't that many things we can mess with.

deleted


Edited by jackwong23 - 06/19/2019 at 1:54am
Back to Top
jackwong23 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 08/14/2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1912
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2019 at 1:54am
Equipments do matter,  Ask Ma long to use 1980s dhs rubbers and blade without boosting and he will probably lose all his matches. 
Back to Top
DLC1325 View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/15/2016
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 716
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DLC1325 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2019 at 2:40am
When it comes to equipment making a difference, I often think of the matches I've watched where (European) pros look at their racquet after a missed hit as if the rubber didn't react as expected (often slippage or a dead ball). I cannot think of a single time I've seen a Chinese player do that. 
Not to say my match views are all encompassing, but more often than not it seems to hold true, and those mis-hits might be the difference in the match at pro levels.


Edited by DLC1325 - 06/19/2019 at 2:42am
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.172 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2024 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.