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Style, Strategy, and Tactics

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2019 at 5:47pm
All of this is great (or not so great) in theory.  On real tables, a lot of players will never improve because they only practice the stuff they are relatively good at.  If you can honestly identify stuff you suck at it is possible to come up with practice regimens that eventually reduce those liabilities.  Tactics you can't execute are self defeating and most people beat themselves.

Edited by Baal - 08/14/2019 at 5:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2019 at 3:06am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Making in game decision-making simpler, I think the ball tells you what to do every time.  Pre-conceived tactics and decisions are useful to practice, but in games just let the ball tell you what to do.
Unlike Stiltt, I don't like this.  For any given ball, there are many things you could do.  If you don't have a sense of what you do well and what you do weakly, then you're not going to make good decisions about what to do with a specific ball.  "Pre-conceived tactics" is critical to making good decisions.

Mark's approach is very analytical, and some intuitive players are going to be uncomfortable with that.  That's fine.  But the way I see it, the goal is to "know yourself".  The way I see it, most players have a broad sense of who they are at the table, but don't look very carefully at the details.  Mark's analysis is a way of pulling out those details.  The better you know yourself, the more you can play to your strengths and stay away from your weaknesses.

Also, to APW's remark that there is nothing new here.  That's pretty much true for every coaching remark every made on this forum.  The question is whether Mark has found a way to organize the information that is useful to some other players.  For example, I personally understood Mark's postings more than I understood APW's, even though I appreciate both.
 Probably because my response was not the length of War and Peace Wink but there are many different ways to say the same thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2019 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Making in game decision-making simpler, I think the ball tells you what to do every time.  Pre-conceived tactics and decisions are useful to practice, but in games just let the ball tell you what to do.
Unlike Stiltt, I don't like this.  For any given ball, there are many things you could do.  If you don't have a sense of what you do well and what you do weakly, then you're not going to make good decisions about what to do with a specific ball.  "Pre-conceived tactics" is critical to making good decisions.

Mark's approach is very analytical, and some intuitive players are going to be uncomfortable with that.  That's fine.  But the way I see it, the goal is to "know yourself".  The way I see it, most players have a broad sense of who they are at the table, but don't look very carefully at the details.  Mark's analysis is a way of pulling out those details.  The better you know yourself, the more you can play to your strengths and stay away from your weaknesses.

Also, to APW's remark that there is nothing new here.  That's pretty much true for every coaching remark every made on this forum.  The question is whether Mark has found a way to organize the information that is useful to some other players.  For example, I personally understood Mark's postings more than I understood APW's, even though I appreciate both.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2019 at 8:49am
Late power to me is almost irrelevant.  What is the definition of late - after the fifth ball?  Unless one player is a defender most matches I play or see have 10% or fewer of the points getting to a sixth ball.

I just counted rally length in a match from my local club tournament this weekend.  Ideal setup for longer rallies -- evenly matched players who train together for years and know the other's serves and tendencies.  One player is a blocker/counter-attacker.  Total points were 42 - 39 in four sets.  On 16 points the ball was touched six times or more.  That includes missed sixth balls.  If I only counted balls with six or more successful shots it would be single digits.  

So under ideal conditions at the ~1900 level late power is possible on fewer than 20% of the points.  

Unless you define late as anything after the third ball?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2019 at 4:13am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

There is nothing new here, 'early power' = playing the percentage game, 'late power' = hitting the table one more time than your opponent. 
If the first one fails, refer to the second one.
The key is that a player needs sound technique before moving up to the mental level of match play or consistency becomes self defeating.
The better, more solid a players technique in service, receive and open play, the more of his brain can be utilized in tracking his opponent, which results in him having time to play his strokes and vision the accurately place them. Then He/she can really learn how to win.
 The idea that the intricacies and complexities can be successfully applied on the table, by reading complex theories off it is debatable, that is not to say you can't understand it.

Could you explain what you mean by "early power = playing the percentage game".

Also I see "hitting the table one more time than your opponent" as Attrition strategy rather than Late Power.  Do you see a difference between the two?

Mark
Attacking carries more risk, especially if your opponent can either stop you or let you do it under their terms, or you lack technique to put the percentage in your favour.
'late power' is just being patient in a rally until utilizing a 'window' to play an aggressive stroke that carries less risk, but ideologically, you are 'hitting the table one more time than you opponent' because you are committing to less risk. to really understand that strategy well, you have to understand and accept that your opponent will be hitting winners past you, but also missing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2019 at 3:07am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

There is nothing new here, 'early power' = playing the percentage game, 'late power' = hitting the table one more time than your opponent. 
If the first one fails, refer to the second one.
The key is that a player needs sound technique before moving up to the mental level of match play or consistency becomes self defeating.
The better, more solid a players technique in service, receive and open play, the more of his brain can be utilized in tracking his opponent, which results in him having time to play his strokes and vision the accurately place them. Then He/she can really learn how to win.
 The idea that the intricacies and complexities can be successfully applied on the table, by reading complex theories off it is debatable, that is not to say you can't understand it.

Could you explain what you mean by "early power = playing the percentage game".

Also I see "hitting the table one more time than your opponent" as Attrition strategy rather than Late Power.  Do you see a difference between the two?

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2019 at 2:40am
There is nothing new here, 'early power' = playing the percentage game, 'late power' = hitting the table one more time than your opponent. 
If the first one fails, refer to the second one.
The key is that a player needs sound technique before moving up to the mental level of match play or consistency becomes self defeating.
The better, more solid a players technique in service, receive and open play, the more of his brain can be utilized in tracking his opponent, which results in him having time to play his strokes and vision the accurately place them. Then He/she can really learn how to win.
 The idea that the intricacies and complexities can be successfully applied on the table, by reading complex theories off it is debatable, that is not to say you can't understand it.


Edited by APW46 - 08/13/2019 at 2:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2019 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Making in game decision-making simpler, I think the ball tells you what to do every time.  Pre-conceived tactics and decisions are useful to practice, but in games just let the ball tell you what to do.

That does not seem to work well for me.  Maybe that is why I am such a poor player and I am trying to compensate for not letting the ball tell me what to do by this kind of approach.

Mark

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2019 at 4:19pm
"in games, just let the ball tell you what to do

I like this, It means we need to rely on our reflexes and trust our training to control our body and do things on the fly, without thinking (o/c before serving though a player may think of what will the play be but that's it). It helps focusing on the ball and force anticipation, at least pushes the player to that edge where their body starts moving earlier, when enough clues about where the ball will come back are gathered, no later than that.

In terms of saying a lot in a few words, that sentence is at the level of the now famous Tongue "dance with the ball". 

Thanks for the insight.


Edited by stiltt - 08/12/2019 at 4:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2019 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Making in game decision-making simpler, I think the ball tells you what to do every time.  Pre-conceived tactics and decisions are useful to practice, but in games just let the ball tell you what to do.

That does not seem to work well for me.  Maybe that is why I am such a poor player and I am trying to compensate for not letting the ball tell me what to do by this kind of approach.

Mark


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2019 at 11:40am
Making in game decision-making simpler, I think the ball tells you what to do every time.  Pre-conceived tactics and decisions are useful to practice, but in games just let the ball tell you what to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2019 at 11:34am
I don't think it is wrong or hurtful.  Useful for your stated purposes I'm not sure about.

I think most TT players can best optimize their performance by working on receiving, and next on serving.  

All these categories are dynamic based on the relative level of the players in a given match, and even dynamic from one point to another, and on each ball in a longer point.  If your opponent is better on serve and receive, the best you can hope for is controlling.  That you are an attacking player is irrelevant for the match.  And all the training on 3rd - 5th ball attacks can't be deployed.

But obviously after you have played for a while it is useful to have some idea of your gameplan.  I think if it in terms of an overall level, and rating specific skills as ++, +, /, -, or - -, relative to that overall level.  I stole this directly from Brian Pace, who I am sure stole it from his own coaches.  Once you have an honest mental picture of your game, you can decide whether to work on stedngthening a strength, or bringing up a weakness.  And it is pretty easy to track progress if you video your matches.

I won't go through everything, but here is a sample for me.

Serves +
Short receives /
Long receives on bh -
Pushes -
Bh block +
Fh block -
Footwork /
Bh attack /
Fh attack +

I'll stop there.  It should all net to /, since you are your level overall.  You can see I don't have any extreme strengths or weaknesses relative to my 1900 rating.  So I am working on improving my fh loop, with a goal of making it a + +, and receiving long serves to my bh, hoping for a / there.  

Obviously if I succeed at those I will no longer be rated 1900, so I will have to re-evaluate based on a higher overall level.  Some of my / will have changed to -.  Working on those to get back to / will probably be necessary to consolidate a higher level. 

Maybe my system is no simpler, but it applies regardless of the opponent's level or style.  Sone people are able to take advantsge of my weak spots and some aren't.  But my relative abilities are fairly constant, that's why I find this approach easier.

I may have presuned the style decision you are starting from was already made.  On that I agree with ttgold.  You play and let playing tell you what style suits you.  It shouldn't be an intellectual exercise.  You like defending or attacking, you feel comfortable near or far.  You can feel these things, thinking about them is not helpful. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/11/2019 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

And this is supposed to make table tennis simpler?  

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

If you believe that most every TT player can best optimize their performance by working on 3rd, 4th, and 5th ball attacking then the things I am discussing do make it more complex.  If you believe that lots of players will play better both initially and in the long run by persuing another style and other strategies then maybe I am presenting a complex method of analyzing the player and the possible ways they could play so they can choose a single style and a few related tactics that simplify how they both practice and play and at the same time give them maximum improvement.

Do you think the information I have presented so far is wrong, just not useful, or even hurtful to players game?

Mark - Who believes that TT,  especially below the national team levels, is a complex sport that can only be seriously discussed in a complex framework.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/11/2019 at 7:02pm
And this is supposed to make table tennis simpler?  

I don't think that word means what you think it means.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/11/2019 at 6:53pm
While executing a late power shot we should focus on dealing early with whatever comes back. The reason is late power is a side effect of not being able to apply early power so we should redeem ourselves in late power by following through and get back to the early bounce asap. It's a mindset, a framework, the essence of the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/11/2019 at 3:46pm
Late Power

Late Power is a strategy which uses controlling shots to remain in a rally until the opponent makes a slightly poorer quality shot which can be attacked strongly with the intention of ending the point with that attack.  It is not just waiting for a pop up ball to kill, but rather trying to counter attack when the quality of the opponent's return is low enough to insure a high probability (not certainty) of success.


It works best for close and mid distance players.  It is particulary good for players with one attacking wing and one controlling wing.  It requires good judgement to recognize attackable balls and the mental flexibility to switch from a controlling/defensive mindset to an attacking one.  It does require patience, but not nearly as much as a pure Attrition strategy.  Far distance players can use the strategy if they 
are very good at moving forward on weaker balls to a distance where they have finishing power.  They can also use it if the opponent's power is low enough that the "far distance" is still close enough that they can generate finishing power.  From far distance this strategy is actual more often a Timing Disruption strategy since hitting an outright winner is not likely.


Judgement as to when to attack and placement of the control shots in order to limit the strength of the attacks are the critical elements in this strategy.  If you are going to use it you need to do practice drills that are designed to improve your play in these areas.  Getting random weaker balls that you must attack is good practice Covering part of table with a towel to force you to hit to wide Bh is another one.  The player with one control wing and one attacking wing can use a very simple judgement scheme in which they attack any shot which comes to the attacking wing, but continue controlling on any shot to the elbow or control wing.  This does mean potentially passing up on some attacking opportunities but limits over aggression type errors.

For close distance players the controlling shots can be blocks, counters, or drives.  Generally close table looping is too risky to play as a controlling shot.  The mini-loop style Bh block is however very effective in this strategy from close distance.  Close distance blocking players can improve their chances by using a reversing rubber on the control wing since it slows play and helps limit strength of attack (underspin usually being attacked less strongly).  Mid distance players can use loops and chops in addition to blocks, counters, and drives.  Using chops is a little risky if your opponent has strong loops against underspin that get to you too quickly and too high when you are at mid distance.

The only complimentary strategy is Early Power.  Just as in the case of defensive players an opponent expecting slower returns or expecting the Late Power player to retreat to mid distance can be surprised by a 3rd, 4th, or 5th ball kill tactc.  In fact some players play an Early/Late Power strategy where they are always first looking to 3rd or 4th ball kill if a return comes to a particular spot from which they can attack strongly. But if the return is not to their "sweet spot" they just go into their Late Power tactics.

Synergistic strategies are generally not that useful for the mid distance Late Power player.  However, for the close distance blocker using Late Power there are several good options.  Timing Disruption by occassionally changing the speed of the block works well.  Spin Variation by using a chop block or side-spin block can often produce an attackable return.  There are some all around players who can mix Late Power and Spin Variation from mid distance by switching from driving/blocking to chopping.

Playing against this style can be very frustrating.  They are very good against Attrition strategies because they are patient, but are good at finishing a point when given the chance.  If you can combine Attrition with disguised Spin Variation (not easy) you can take advantage of their desire to attack by getting them to attack "easy" balls that are really not that easily attackable.  A Timing Disruption strategy usually fails because they are always prepared to attack the slower ball.  Early Power, especially 3rd ball kill tactics  can be very effective since it ends the point before they can get set up in a positition to control you effectively.  Often when playing a Late Power opponent you end up having to play a Late Power strategy yourself.  You have to return his controlling shots with control shots which keep him from attacking and wait for a slight mistake in one of his control shots which gives you a good opportunity to attack strongly.  Pattern strategy can also be good against a close distance Late Power player by making it more difficult for them to execute their controlling shots.  However, you must be sure that the pattern being played does not include a return into their automatic attack zone.  Pattern strategy against mid distance Late Power players is less effective because of the greater time they have to react and move. But something like Elbow/Bh/Elbow could be effective if they are not too good at moving into position to attack the shots to their elbow.

As a Late Power player you can pretty much play your strategy against any of the other strategies.  Against Attrittion and Spin Variation strategies you just have to be better at selecting the right ball to attack than they are at getting back your attacks.  Against Pattern and Time Pressure strategies you have to be able to repeatedly execute your control shots even in the face of guickly returned shots and the need for good Fh/Elbow/Bh transitions.  Playing mid distance Late Power reduces Pattern and Timing Pressure problems.  If you are playing close distance, using very compact controlling strokes will also limit the effectiveness of Pattern and Timing Pressure against your Late Power strategy.
Against Timing Disruption you need to effectively attack any slower balls.  But since this is you normal strategy anyway, it should not be that difficult.  Against Early Power strategies you have to make very good controlling shots with your serve, return, and 3rd ball.  Serves that are not easily flipped (such as heavy under/dead), short push returns, 3rd ball blocks of flip, and 3rd ball openings with precise placement ( to elbow or wide Bh) are critically necessary against an Early Power strategy in order to through the first 4 balls and into your Late Power strategy.  Against players using reversing rubber, it is often necessary to use a dead push as your controlling shot since they can attack strongly against normal pushes.

In summary, Late Power is a very versatile strategy which relies on patience and good judgement in selecting which returns to attack strongly and placement skills to execute control shots which limit the strength of your opponent's attacks.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2019 at 4:45pm
Great stuff! Looking forward to the next installment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2019 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by acpoulos acpoulos wrote:

K.I.S.S. Principle

I assume you are saying that I am making things too complicated.  Actually I am trying to make things simpler during the point (especially reducing decisions).  For example focusing on 1 strategy that fits your style rather than trying to play all strategies.  Having something simple to do like just hit to the elbow if the point starts playing out differently than your planned tactic.

I am advocating doing something complicated when not actually playing points.  That is thinking critically about how you play ( or want to play) in ways that help you optimize your natural abilities and focus training on those few (less is simpler) things that give you the most benefit.  I am also advocating thinking critically about what is actually happening during the match (between games and between points) so that out of the thousands of ways you could choose to play you can focus on a few that are most likely to work (credit to Larry Hodges for this idea).  And the more you can analyze and decide before a match (based on knowledge of your style and strategies and those of your opponent) the less you have to do during the match.

So the idea is to employ complicated thinking so you can train and play simply and focused.

Maybe I am just bad at describing things simply. 

Mark - Who has the Stupid part of K.I.S.S. down pat.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2019 at 3:43pm
The Seven Strategies (part 1)

The seven primary strategies are
1. Early Power
2. Late Power
3. Pattern
4. Time Pressure
5. Timing Disruption
6. Spin Variation
7. Attrition

Strategies may be complimentary or synergistic.  

A complimentary strategy is one  which is used in some points instead of the primary strategy.  Its difference from the main primary strategy is such that there is a large suprise effect which makes it more effective than it would be as a primary strategy.  

Synergistic strategies are those that can be combined in a single point to become more effective than either alone.  Whether are not strategies can be used well together not only depends on the strategies themselves, but also upon which style is being played. 

Early Power:

This is the most common strategy especially at the higher levels.  3rd, 4th, and 5th ball kill tactics would fall under the Early Power strategy.  With the emergence of the Chiquita flip,  2nd ball kill can be added to that list.  Note that as players are becoming more used to facing the Chiquita, it becomes more of a setup shot.  But at lower levels it can often be a consistant winner.  At higher levels the "kill" shot is almost always done with the Fh thus requiring well executed footwork.  At lower levels a large swing wristy Bh is often used to produce enough power that it can be used as a kill in addition to the Fh.  This reduces the importance of really high level footwork in making the strategy work.

This strategy is best fot attacking and attacking/controlling styles that play close to the table and it requires a topspin orientation on both wings.  Interestingly, the 3rd and 4th ball kill tactics can be very useful as a complimentary strategy for far distance defensive players.  Often opponents of retreating defensive players lower the quality of their serve returns or 3rd balls to just get safely into the rally.  If the defensive player occassionally stays close and attacks early it can put a lot of pressure on the opponent's  serve return and 3rd balls and result in more unforced errors.

This strategy is highly dependent on getting to attack first.  As such having high quality (hard to attack) serves and serve returns which limit 3rd ball attacks is essential.  It is important to develop serves that fit in with how you plan to attack.  If you most often 3rd ball kill with your Fh, devevop serves that are difficult to return to your Bh such as reverse pendulums to opponents Fh.  Conversely, if your Fh kill is a little weaker and you do better using a Bh 3rd ball to set up an easier 5th ball kill then develop serves that are less likely to be returned to your Fh.  It also useful to match serves to the type spin you prefer attacking.  If you attack topspin better then serve more topspin and half-long serves that are likely to be returned with topsin.  Playing 5th ball tactics (instead of 3rd) also results in the kill shot being made against topspin more often.

There is not really any complimentary strategy to use with Early Power.  However, there are ways to mix your Early Power tactics such that you can get effects similar to using a Timing Disruption strategy.  Using an ocassional underspin 3rd ball to set up a 5th ball kill will often result in a missed or very weak loop from an opponent who is expecting topspin.  Likewise, occasionally using a slow high spin Fh third ball instead of your normal  loopkill often creates an error.  Although a little risky, you might somtimes use a soft 3rd ball block instead of your normal loop in order to get a weak return for your 5th ball (only against topspin serve returns of course).

Likewise there is not really a synergistic strategy.  But you can apply some of the concepts of the Pattern strategy to your placement choices.  Elbow/Fh and Wide Bh/Elbow  combinations can be very effective just as they are in Pattern play.  Short serve to Fh and open to Fh works very similar to the "double up" tactic in the Pattern strategy.

Playing against this strategy can be daunting as they are going to hit a lot of winners.  If you play a similar strategy then it is all about getting in the first attack.  So good serving and short returns are the major weapons.  If they are attacking/controlling another tactic is getting them in a position where they must hit several shots in a row with their controlling side (thus not able to get in their attack).  This often requires going wide to their attacking wing, forcing a control shot from that side, going as wide as possible to their contol wing, and finally hitting repeatedly to that wing since they can not force you with their control side.  

If you play defensively you can eliminate their early power by getting back far enough quickly so that the speed and spin diminish by the time the ball gets to you.  If you are more controlling, moving quickly to mid distance can negate some of their power and still allow you to play a late power strategy. 

The Early Power player does need  plans to deal with situations where opponents limit his use of early power.  

Against other Early Power players there are several options:
1. 3rd to 5th - If playing a 3rd ball tactic have a plan to respond to the most common limiting serve return in a way that becomes a 5th ball tactic.  For example plan to deal with good short pushes by pushing deep to weaker wing and then 5th ball killing any weak return.  Or plan to block a return flip back to the elbow and 5th ball kill the weak return.  For really good attackers your only option might be pushing back short again and then playing the 5th ball like you originally planned to play the 3rd ball.  There are many options that can be used, but most important is having a plan before you serve.

2. Pound the elbow - If the opponent is about to get in the first attack retreat slightly and play return to their elbow and retreat again to a distance where their power does not seem overwhelming but close enough that you can still play controlling shots to their elbow. If you get a weak return be ready to finish the point with a strong attack (Late Power strategy) or simply be steady and outlast your opponent (Attrition strategy).  Play the alternate strategy that suits you best and is worst for opponent.  If they rush and often miss trying to finish the point then you play attrition.  If they are better than you at the long rally then look for chances for late power attacks.  It is important to be aware how these situations are playing out so you can pick the right strategy.

3. Cross- court for position - Play all returns as wide cross-court as you feel is safe (based on strength of opponent's shots).  This puts you in the "least needed footwork" position so you can be ready for the next attack.  Stay close to the table if you are comfortable handing the opponent's power or retreat some if you need more time to get ready for shots.  If attacks are going past you without you being able to touch them (or just barely so) you need to move back.

When playing against a quickly retreating defensive player the Early Power player can create Early Power situations even later in the point by using:
1. Push is the new serve -  If you are playing an underspin defensive player you can use a push just like a serve to set up a 3rd ball type attack at any point in the rally.  Of course the push has to be good enough that it is not easily attaclable.   Before the point starts have a plan on where you want to push ( Fh, Bh, middle), and where you are going to attack.  The plan that works the best will depended on what your opponent does well and what he does poorly.  Some do not attack with their Bh so that is a good push target. Others with LP's attack underspin well on that side, but do not loop underspin well from the other so pushing there gives you a chance to attack.  If you are playing someone like Joo Se-Hyuk, just admire the winners he hits no matter what you try.
2. Placement before power - Far distance players use the extra distance to negate an opponent's power.  One way to use this against them is to reduce power and simultaneously increase the angle of you shots.  This results in the defensive player having to move both wide and in to play the shot.  This gives the Early Power player the chance to effectively use his power on the next shot to the opposite side of the table.  This is more effective against topspin defenders since it is easier to reduce power against topspin balls than against underspin but you do see some top players like Timo Boll using this tactic against choppers.  Developing an inside-out Fh smash or drive can make this tactic very effective against lobbers and fishers.

In summary, the attacking or attacking/control player should train extensively on the Early Power tactics.  A very high emphasis should be placed on serve and serve return development.  Less time should initially be spent on counter-looping training since this is only really used if the tactic failed.  Early Power players can develop and use some special tactics for use against far distance defenders that still allows them to use their power effectively.


Edited by mjamja - 08/01/2019 at 3:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/29/2019 at 2:42am
I tried some of the tips including serving more topspin serves than underspin serves, and won more games than usual in club practice.... Interesting🤔
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/27/2019 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

To blahness,

First you need to clarify some things.
1.  Are you attacking (trying to hit clear winners) from both wings are you more controlling on one wing ( which one is it) and attacking on the other.

2. If you are playing an attacking or attacking/controlling game you do better if you are low risk averse and not so patient in your normal life outside TT.  So do you match up psychologically with the type style you are playing.?

Assuming you are playing attacking from both wings and that you match up psychologically to that style consider.

 1. Early power (3rd, 4th, and 5th ball attacks) is your best strategy.   These are highly dependent on quality serve and serve return so that should be a focus.  For the quickest results focus on serves which normally give you back the spin you like to attack.  Personally I stink attacking topspin, but can open strongly against under so I practice and use mostly under, side under, and dead serves.  Of course in the long term you need to practice to be able to attack all kinds of returns and have multiple kinds of service spins.  You need to practice specific combinations of shots (tactics) for each of the above.  You need to do extended practice on one tactic at a time not 3 points for one tactic, 3 for another, 3 for another, etc.  Using the same serve repeatedly for the whole drill brings your practice partners return level up making the drill more effective.  Each tactic has specific footwork that enhances it effectiveness (position after setup shot, reposition move to setup finishing shot) that needs to be practiced.

2. Having trouble with consistent players is an indication that you are not executing your finishing shot well or not really playing an early power strategy.  If you play early power, then the point should not last long enough for opponent to display consistency.  You hit winner, you miss, or he hits winning block or counterattack is the way most points should go.  If it seems like miss is happening a lot focus tactic practice on consistency of the finish (possibly focus on reducing speed/spin until you find your consistent level).  If winning counterattack happens often focus tactic practice on generating higher quality ball.  As always, in the long term you want both higher consistency and a higher quality ball but fix the immediate problem first. 

3.  Have an "oops that is not what I wanted" plan in each point.  This could include
a) The 3 to 5 plan -  You planned to play a 3rd ball tactic.  But you know there is some really good return that keeps you from attacking (short push or very strong flip).  Have an alternate 5th ball plan against that shot before you serve.  For example plan a 3rd ball deep push to Bh and 5th ball kill of weak opening if opponent does a good short push.
b) When everything falls apart hit to the elbow.  Plan ahead that if you can not execute your plan, then just keep trying to hit to your opponents playing elbow. Do not try to "win" the point just get them to make a mistake.
c) Position, position, position - Return cross court so that you are in the best return angle position without having to move.  Very good to use when opponent breaks down your plan with an unexpected very good wide angle which gets you off balance.

When practicing a tactic, practice part of the time where you get 2 different returns, one of which requires the use of an "oops" plan.

4. Work on developing a secondary style and strategy  This takes longer time but in the long run is really vital.  If you are making most of your overhitting mistakes on your weaker wing then work on playing control from that side.  If you are missing on your stronger side because you try to overuse it, but do not have the footwork to do so going to control on weaker wing and using it more would also apply.  You could stay early power, but focus more on 5th ball tactics.  You could also switch to more of a late power strategy.  This would require practice specifically aimed at developing your patience and judgement of when to attack.  For example drill requiring you to play 4 control Bh's before attacking, or one where you are randomly hit a weaker ball which you must attack.  Practicing your "oops" plan is very similar to this.

If any of this makes good sense I would be really surprised. But you never know.

Mark







Thanks mjamja... I usually try to hit a strong topspin to one end followed by a quick redirection to another end. If I am consistent enough the strategy is deadly against most players. I use that attacking strategy on both wings. I am very patient in my normal life but also not risk averse :)

1. Interesting point, on introspection my attacks against topspin are a lot stronger than my attacks against underspin and I am quite strong at topspin rallying. However, good players can still push very spinny against sidetopspin serves so that jams me up often enough. I should practice more opening loops against heavy underspin but in matches serve more topspin since it's my favoured game. Good idea on practicing while serving only one type of spin. 
2. The soft consistent players who play with a lot of spin (both very spinny pushes and very spinny topspin) make me commit a lot of unforced errors when attacking, there's still not a lot of rallying going on...
3. Good idea on the oops plan. I'm actually afraid of short pushes to my FH short corner which are high because I don't know how to attack them lol... 
For quality short pushes I'm not really afraid since I have good pushes myself, can definitely hold my own. 
4. Lol I never tried playing control from mid distance, maybe I should try it some day!

Mjamja don't sell yourself short, I think you've got a good thing going on!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/27/2019 at 4:43pm
Interesting post mjamja!

I'm mostly 1.2.1
Sometimes, depending on the opponent I'll switch to 2.2.1

I'm mostly vulnerable to my own weak service recieve. I've been working on this for a long time. Been working on my 3rd ball attack as well and getting more and more consistent. It has taken a lot of work though. My footwork is improving.

Thanks for this post!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2019 at 6:00pm
To blahness,

First you need to clarify some things.
1.  Are you attacking (trying to hit clear winners) from both wings are you more controlling on one wing ( which one is it) and attacking on the other.

2. If you are playing an attacking or attacking/controlling game you do better if you are low risk averse and not so patient in your normal life outside TT.  So do you match up psychologically with the type style you are playing.?

Assuming you are playing attacking from both wings and that you match up psychologically to that style consider.

 1. Early power (3rd, 4th, and 5th ball attacks) is your best strategy.   These are highly dependent on quality serve and serve return so that should be a focus.  For the quickest results focus on serves which normally give you back the spin you like to attack.  Personally I stink attacking topspin, but can open strongly against under so I practice and use mostly under, side under, and dead serves.  Of course in the long term you need to practice to be able to attack all kinds of returns and have multiple kinds of service spins.  You need to practice specific combinations of shots (tactics) for each of the above.  You need to do extended practice on one tactic at a time not 3 points for one tactic, 3 for another, 3 for another, etc.  Using the same serve repeatedly for the whole drill brings your practice partners return level up making the drill more effective.  Each tactic has specific footwork that enhances it effectiveness (position after setup shot, reposition move to setup finishing shot) that needs to be practiced.

2. Having trouble with consistent players is an indication that you are not executing your finishing shot well or not really playing an early power strategy.  If you play early power, then the point should not last long enough for opponent to display consistency.  You hit winner, you miss, or he hits winning block or counterattack is the way most points should go.  If it seems like miss is happening a lot focus tactic practice on consistency of the finish (possibly focus on reducing speed/spin until you find your consistent level).  If winning counterattack happens often focus tactic practice on generating higher quality ball.  As always, in the long term you want both higher consistency and a higher quality ball but fix the immediate problem first. 

3.  Have an "oops that is not what I wanted" plan in each point.  This could include
a) The 3 to 5 plan -  You planned to play a 3rd ball tactic.  But you know there is some really good return that keeps you from attacking (short push or very strong flip).  Have an alternate 5th ball plan against that shot before you serve.  For example plan a 3rd ball deep push to Bh and 5th ball kill of weak opening if opponent does a good short push.
b) When everything falls apart hit to the elbow.  Plan ahead that if you can not execute your plan, then just keep trying to hit to your opponents playing elbow. Do not try to "win" the point just get them to make a mistake.
c) Position, position, position - Return cross court so that you are in the best return angle position without having to move.  Very good to use when opponent breaks down your plan with an unexpected very good wide angle which gets you off balance.

When practicing a tactic, practice part of the time where you get 2 different returns, one of which requires the use of an "oops" plan.

4. Work on developing a secondary style and strategy  This takes longer time but in the long run is really vital.  If you are making most of your overhitting mistakes on your weaker wing then work on playing control from that side.  If you are missing on your stronger side because you try to overuse it, but do not have the footwork to do so going to control on weaker wing and using it more would also apply.  You could stay early power, but focus more on 5th ball tactics.  You could also switch to more of a late power strategy.  This would require practice specifically aimed at developing your patience and judgement of when to attack.  For example drill requiring you to play 4 control Bh's before attacking, or one where you are randomly hit a weaker ball which you must attack.  Practicing your "oops" plan is very similar to this.

If any of this makes good sense I would be really surprised. But you never know.

Mark








Edited by mjamja - 07/26/2019 at 6:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2019 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Ok let's try it out. 

I'm generally aggressive and close table with topspin on both wings. I am young, fit and reasonably quick. 

One of my issues is generally shot selection and being overly aggressive, making too many unforced errors as a result. I want to become more consistent while maintaining aggressive play. 

I usually do quite well against pip players and penholders and struggle against consistent players who play very spinny and soft...

I try to get advantages with my serves, but sometimes that doesn't happen with good receivers or if I have a bad serving day, that's usually when I struggle. 

What should I prioritise in my game?

You know people usually pay big bucks for that kind of detailed in depth analysis.  Of course they usually pay it to people who really know what they are talking about.  So in your case maybe you should get a freebie.

Mark - Who obviously does not know what he does not know and who is really dangerous because what he thinks he knows is wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2019 at 4:22am
Ok let's try it out. 

I'm generally aggressive and close table with topspin on both wings. I am young, fit and reasonably quick. 

One of my issues is generally shot selection and being overly aggressive, making too many unforced errors as a result. I want to become more consistent while maintaining aggressive play. 

I usually do quite well against pip players and penholders and struggle against consistent players who play very spinny and soft...

I try to get advantages with my serves, but sometimes that doesn't happen with good receivers or if I have a bad serving day, that's usually when I struggle. 

What should I prioritise in my game?


Edited by blahness - 07/26/2019 at 4:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2019 at 3:59am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Mjamja and I realized earlier tonight that his system is missing another category: how many feet you have on the floor at the moment you hit the ball.  Answers would be:

1) Both feet on the ground.
2) One foot on the ground and one around the height of your waste.
3) Both feet off the ground, but still below your knees.
4) Both feet off the ground and at least one above your head.
5) Back on the ground, feet in the air.
6) Hands on the ground (cartwheels)

Which do you fit?

How do you simultaneously have hands on the ground and hitting the ball with your bat?

If you ever watched benfb play you would realize that there are ways of swinging at a ball you never imagined.  Note that I said "swinging at" and not hitting if you get my drift.

Mark -Whose table tennis taxonomy template is not appreciated by all.




Edited by mjamja - 07/26/2019 at 4:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2019 at 2:54am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Mjamja and I realized earlier tonight that his system is missing another category: how many feet you have on the floor at the moment you hit the ball.  Answers would be:

1) Both feet on the ground.
2) One foot on the ground and one around the height of your waste.
3) Both feet off the ground, but still below your knees.
4) Both feet off the ground and at least one above your head.
5) Back on the ground, feet in the air.
6) Hands on the ground (cartwheels)

Which do you fit?

How do you simultaneously have hands on the ground and hitting the ball with your bat?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2019 at 2:46am
Mjamja and I realized earlier tonight that his system is missing another category: how many feet you have on the floor at the moment you hit the ball.  Answers would be:

1) Both feet on the ground.
2) One foot on the ground and one around the height of your waste.
3) Both feet off the ground, but still below your knees.
4) Both feet off the ground and at least one above your head.
5) Back on the ground, feet in the air.
6) Hands on the ground (cartwheels)

Which do you fit?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2019 at 8:41am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

In your case, controlling and mid distance,  performance should be best with patient, mild risk averse players, capable of making in point judgements (not robotic), with good stamina ( controlling meaning longer rallies and mid distance having more ground to cover).

Yup, this pretty much sums up my game.  I do, however, have other attributes: attention deficit disorder, poor eyesight, weak bladder, etc.

Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

So you have a couple of strategies to follow
1. Attrition - Which is more difficult at mid distance.  This sounds like what you are currently doing.
2. Late power - You need to concentrate on playing as close to the table while still mid distance and need to work hard on getting more power on at least one wing
3. Timing disruption - If you really can not develop finishing power at least get good at surprise increases in speed.  Maybe you even intentionally take some speed off your normal shots to make the difference in speed greater between top and normal speed.
4. Spin variation - You already have some built in variation from the different rubber and technique on the two wings.  Working on a higher spin Bh could enhance that difference.  Adding a Fh chop or chop block would be another way to increase the spin variation.

Timing disruption seems the easiest to learn.  Late power and spin variation seem like the strongest options but require learning some new technique.
Options 1 and 3 - Attrition and Timing disruption - remain my go to options.  Option 4 - Spin variation - is less likely to offer results.  I've never learnt the fine art of spinning the ball like a gyroscope on steroids; however, I can certainly work at improving my backhand spin, and the contrast with my forehand short pips does give me, as you so eloquently put it, "some built in variation".   I do also have a forehand chop and backhand lob in my arsenal, although I would want to play down my level of expertise.

Option 2 - Late power - is never, ever, ever going to happen.  Never.

Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Please note this is not about reaching a certain level of play (I am sure Tassie would kick my butt).  It is about trying to find the simplest and quickest things to improve from your current level.
  Me beating mjamja?  LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2019 at 2:53am
Tassie wrote:
Reasoning: I am tall, old and slow (always have been - too much slow twitch muscle fibre), which means I never power the ball past anyone.  My lack of speed means I get caught close to the table so need to back away a step or two.  I've never learnt to generate massive amounts of spin, even with inverted on my backhand, although I have a clear preference for backhand topspin and short pimples forehand.

If by lack of speed you mean lack of quickness to react such that close to table play is difficult then you are in a difficult situation.  That plus being tall means mid to far is the right distance.  However your lack of power makes mid distance play more difficult and older players usually do not have the stamina for the long distance defense  that would fit in with your lack of power.  

So you have a couple of strategies to follow
1. Attrition - Which is more difficult at mid distance.  This sounds like what you are currently doing.
2. Late power - You need to concentrate on playing as close to the table while still mid distance and need to work hard on getting more power on at least one wing
3. Timing disruption - If you really can not develop finishing power at least get good at surprise increases in speed.  Maybe you even intentionally take some speed off your normal shots to make the difference in speed greater between top and normal speed.
4. Spin variation - You already have some built in variation from the different rubber and technique on the two wings.  Working on a higher spin Bh could enhance that difference.  Adding a Fh chop or chop block would be another way to increase the spin variation.

Timing disruption seems the easiest to learn.  Late power and spin variation seem like the strongest options but require learning some new technique.  

Please note this is not about reaching a certain level of play (I am sure Tassie would kick my butt).  It is about trying to find the simplest and quickest things to improve from your current level.

Mark





Edited by mjamja - 07/25/2019 at 2:55am
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