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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2022 at 7:51am
Played quite a few matches today to test out 3 items, the new tomahawk serve movement, BH down the line and new forehand loop concept. 

Lost a lot more matches to the rally player than usual but still won some. So the benefit of the tomahawk serve is that the spin is extremely potent and it's very difficult for the opponent to open even against the longer variants. I still find it a bit awkward to serve the sidetopspin variant but at least it does work - the opponent will pop the ball quite high if he misreads them, but I'm not getting enough topspin on the ball still. Will need to brush more forward than down I guess... Also I'm making a bit too many direct service mistakes now and my placement and height control is just crap with the new serve as compared to other serves. 

Out of the 4 methods of doing BH down the line, I think the fade topspin method (like how Harimoto does it) is the best way and the most advanced way to go down the line. I used it quite a lot in matches, and found out how to do it against non topspin balls now (it's the same concept, just contact more of the bottom of the ball to adjust). There's also an arc to make when doing that shot which is required to improve consistency. It's actually really the sister shot to learn to accompany the traditional BH sidespin loop, I was getting some incredible angles out of it. Looked super promising

I kinda like the new FH loop concept and it is a lot speedier as I'm driving the ball a lot more, and it's a bit more friendly to the shoulders imo. Will have to get used to it a lot more though, again I'm making a lot more mistakes compared to usual, but imo it has a lot more potential compared to my old stroke where the shoulder goes up a bit to emphasize spin, but really causes too many thin brush issues during games. 
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FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/23/2022 at 7:35am
Finally learnt how to serve a true heavy sidetopspin tomahawk and how to control it. I had a movement which looked like I brushed the top of the ball hard and yet it's still heavy underspin - was getting frustrated because I wasn't able to make my opponent actually completely missing the table and popping the ball up real high. So the issue was that I was actually brushing the ball downwards for a tiny while and the movement going over the top of the ball was a fake movement as i wasn't in contact with the ball then. The contact feeling was still an underspin contact. To generate topspin I actually need to have the feeling of rolling the ball forward brushing, not just contacting the top half of the ball, and the index finger was crucial in achieving that. Now at least these 2 methods of ball contact are ingrained into my mind, it'll become a great new tool in my serve list. 

From the same preparation now I have a quality hook serve, tomahawk serve, standard pendulum, heavy underspin/no spin. I guess I still have the slightly illegal Yoshimura style reverse pendulum, but am not a big fan of it as it's a lot harder to control without a lot of practice...

I also trained a new shot I learned from WRM table tennis, the safe FH soft flick which is short and low. I feel like this has a lot more potential than the harder FH flick since it's a lot safer. The idea is to target the correct area of the ball and essentially give it a short "bump" to keep the flick short. I think this is super underrated especially if the opponent is farther from the table. Also this seems to tie in very well with a short loop off a long serve which works really well as an alternative safer game plan to the standard powerlooping of long FH serves and hard FH flicks to really disrupt the opponent's patterns. It works against pretty much all spins and placements to kick-start a topspin rally safely which is a big plus to the idea. 

For those interested it is this video:




Edited by blahness - 11/23/2022 at 7:53am
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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2022 at 6:57am
Did some opening loop training today on both wings after the serve, and figured out a way to get almost 90% success rates.

So basically for the FH the trick is to finish high and not forward, once I forced myself to finish the opening loop with bat directly above the head, looping these very heavy backspin became much easier. For the BH the trick was to neutralise the spin with active supination with the thumb pressing on the right side of the blade to provide a very valuable turning effect which produces very heavy spin. I think the important factor was to try it out without perfect positioning because it forces you to learn how to neutralise and deal with the spin with just the upper body and hand movements. Then, after I added the leg/core movement then the shot quality can be increased significantly, but with the contact nailed. 

Also did some rally training with this guy who's quite good. I was counterlooping FH to FH against him and almost lost all of the points during practice ugh. I felt like I had much more power than him, but his boosted Hurricane 3 is just producing extremely deadly amounts of spin which made me miss the counter all too often. Now I'm tempted to switch back to Hurricane style rubbers on the FH. That additional spin generated is such an advantage during rallies. 
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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/27/2022 at 7:20pm
Did some practice with the Hurricane 8-80 - I'm not sure why everyone thinks this is slower than 09c but imo it is actually faster and also higher throw. It was so easy for my loops to fly off the table. But still service and short pushes are good, so are opening loops. It's almost like D05 in its ease of use imo. 

Still didn't quite get the correct angles for looping against topspin/no spin stuff and was overcooking all my loops - i only managed to get more consistency at the end of the session. 

Played a few exciting matches against this Jpen guy who had the best traditional TPB i've ever seen. The way he did it is almost like RPB, the bat is pointed down during the backswing and he actually turns the full 200+ deg and generates some insane amounts of topspin using this movement. He actually also uses a TPB chiquita which blew my mind (didn't know it was actually possible). Guy also had some insane footwork and the usual killer FH that you would expect from a strong Jpen player. But i think he's a bit too aggressive with the TPB countering which results in too many errors during topspin rallies (unlike other Jpen players who generally play a very steady, medium speed BH punchblock). 

I played like 9 games against him where I lost 6 and won 3. The only reason I won those 3 is mainly because of my service variation (I was moving him around with extreme angles and deceptive spin variations - had to pull all the tricks in the book) and BH receive of serve where I chiquita'ed mostly everything and looped all of the long serves well. He tried serving to my FH short too but now with the new shorter/stable FH flick and short push it wasn't a huge weakness and I didn't lose a lot of points that way. His game was so aggressive that if I gave him any weak balls it was immediately punished with a tremendous Jpen FH powerloop that was close to unreturnable, or the killer TPB BH opening loop which I could block, but then unless I gave him to an extremely uncomfortable position with pace - i would have to face that killer FH powerloop again. 

The big killer for me is that I overhit tons of opportunity balls on my FH as I wasn't really in tune with the bounciness of the new FH rubber. The funny thing is that I had almost no problems doing FH opening loops and looping during the rallies (which I won quite a few).  

One thing I learnt from a Youtube video of Yan An powerlooping against underspin - his bat actually faces backwards (i.e. pointing backwards towards himself almost) at the end of the stroke - I did not know that this was actually possible. I tried it at home and it seems to make the FH stroke even smoother with easier power - will try it on the table later.


Edited by blahness - 11/27/2022 at 8:17pm
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/01/2022 at 11:56pm
Tried the new FH movement and it seems to allow me to control the arc better and increase the spin. So now instead of just an upwards movement -> it's now more of an arc with an upward movement in the beginning and a downward movement at the end (previously it was just going up without that downwards movement to suppress the arc at the end)

Also am trying to change my FH backswing such that the elbow is almost touching the waist at the end to decrease the backswing time required - still a work in progress!



Edited by blahness - 12/02/2022 at 8:26pm
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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/2022 at 12:17am
Figured out a way to perform a strawberry receive with the BH chiquita preparation haha...that receive is gonna give some eye rolls when I use it in actual matches. Did tons of serve/receive training and trying to perfect the FH soft flick receive on the FH, it's way easier against FH pendulum serves than BH serves / reverse pendulum serves. 

Edited by blahness - 12/04/2022 at 12:17am
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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/05/2022 at 10:07pm

Did more analysis and testing of the FH loop variant with the bat pointing backwards at the end of the followthrough. What I found is that it works amazing for opening loops and attacking weaker balls in general due to the increased dwell time and spin - it really reduces errors in powerlooping.

However, it is way too big of a stroke with poorer recovery time to be used as a continuous FH loop against block or in topspin rallies - in those cases the normal compact loop is superior in terms of its utility.  

I noticed also that Ma Long does this very frequently when he attacks slower/weaker balls - the followthrough is very exaggerated (with the bat often pointing backwards at the end of the followthrough). I think this is part of the reason why he has a lot more control and makes less mistakes in his opening loop attacks too - it's simply a stroke that is easier to land.

It's very interesting how significant the rotation is, Ma Long also starts with his bat pointing backwards, and ends with the bat pointing backwards too, so it's a complete 360 deg rotation. 

It's also trivial to add a "hook" movement to this to create the deadly whirlwind sidespin FH for extra angle/variation, all from the exact same preparation point.

I did some training today to experiment a bit more with this, it feels a bit like elbowing in martial arts. It can be incredibly spinny and powerful when done right, but I found it a bit hard to control the stroke - will have to experiment a bit more...

Some screenshots from the analysis:
 


Edited by blahness - 12/07/2022 at 7:08am
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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2022 at 2:31am
Learnt how to make a real wrapping heavy FH push off a BH sidetop serve to the FH short - which is one of my major serve receive weakness. The key is to have the bat tip pointing upwards like a tomahawk serve - and then do a quick supination to wrap around the ball with the axis of rotation being a vertical line from top to bottom. This will create very heavy side backspin easily. Can be used against sidespin and side under serves easily too.

So in general my FH receives against those BH pendulum serves are: tomahawk chop (going short or very long), soft flick and the FH fade. With the BH receive (in order of strength) I can do chiquita, strawberry, BH sidespin push-flick which produces either sidetop or sideunder. Against FH pendulum I have the hook style receive which can create a diagonal short push or a sudden long push/flick, the soft FH flick, FH fade. 

Am giving up on the Ma Long FH loop movement Cry, it's just way too slow in terms of recovery time and also not so easy to control after all....I can see the significant benefits in terms of ease of power and directional disguise. But I'm going back to my old FH stroke which doesn't have the elbow crossing over that much, and imo much easier to control for me. 


Edited by blahness - 12/12/2022 at 5:02pm
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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/2022 at 4:53pm
Training against a chopper yesterday night. He is very good at varying the spin of his chops all the way from heavy side underspin to sidetopspin (???) to no spin chops. I realised my current FH loop against underspin requires way too much energy to overcome the backspin (although it does produce a high quality shot). 

So I copied my BH philosophy against underspin, by simply lifting it from bottom to top, contacting the bottom of the ball solidly and just brushing it while lifting it - this method works brilliantly! Never before in my life have I looped underspin so effortlessly lol I was just using maybe 20% of my energy. As it was so effortless I could easily vary placement, power etc instead of literally struggling af to overcome the backspin. 

With this method I was able to get a lot of beautiful control loop vs chop battles against the chopper. Previously when I played choppers I was literally killing the ball or just get killed which made for some ugly table tennis haha.

This was a very nice accident indeed! Also made me rethink my FH structure a bit, to not brush so much, rather to make the core mechanics more of a hit - with the brushing coming next in priority. The way to adjust to different balls is simply to hit at different locations of the ball (bottom, top, back, side, etc...). This brings my FH mechanics a lot closer to my BH philosophy.


Edited by blahness - 12/15/2022 at 4:54pm
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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/30/2022 at 7:43am
Played against my old friend the inverted/LP twiddling penholder again. I thought I would have improved enough to beat him but turns out he improved heaps too. Now his TPB is like a wall and is so consistent with all the variations (normal topspin block, sidespin block, sideunderspin block, the fade to the FH, punch block, and one of the deadliest reduced energy blocks I've dealt with (I tested him and he could reliably make a high ball double bounce on the table with both FH and BH). Still has his amazing quick draw FH powerloop, LP receive. He also increased the quality of his FH serves incredibly - it's even harder to read it now. 

Still am stuck with like 20-30% winrate against him, but most games went to deuce but incredibly, out of like 10+ games that went to 9-9, 10-10, I only won 1!

Read a super, super useful tip on proper positioning and "lowering of the eyes to net level", it is achieved less by bending at the knees (squatting), but more at the hip (ie make your butt stick out), if you follow these and maintain some tension in the legs by maybe a 10 deg knee bend, that is usually quite sufficient. This helped heaps in terms of improving my quickness and accuracy of the serve receive and general game. 

My recent improvements in the FH helped a lot, I was now attacking his long serves to the FH with a lot more ease - having the elbow close to the body during the backswing really reduced my FH loop startup time. Also my new FH flick completely removed my short FH weakness, it was more a strength now as I got lots of points from it.

Thing to note to myself in terms of looping long serves - sometimes it's not worthwhile trying to powerloop, but just throw in a high loopy ball to the BH can work wonders as the BH is usually bad against high balls. 

He had this FH pendulum serve to my deep BH side exiting the corners which gave me huge amount of trouble - if I pushed it was just FH loopkilled to both corners regardless of my placement, if I chiquita I can only do it diagonal and it'll be met by some nasty TPB variations especially the punch down the line which proved to be quite killer. If I attempted to go down the line it was met by his FH counter. I didn't really find any good solutions to the serve receive for this imo other than increasing the chiquita quality and hope to survive the rally. 

The other serve which gave me fits was this long LP FH serve. It looks deceptively simple but there's 2 variations which look almost the same - the underspin (surprisingly there's a decent amount of underspin coming from LPs!) and the no spin/mild topspin variant. I think ultimately the strategy of looping it higher without giving the ball too much additional speed yielded the most dividends - need to remember to train this technique a lot more. 

Also, I missed a lot of high balls to the BH - need to remember that I have to try to pivot every single time there is a high ball - BHs are just terrible against high balls. 

The reason why I lost most games was that I was actually losing a lot of BH-BH rallies against him (surprisingly) and his FH is too strong for me to attempt the switch.  I guess this is kinda unfixable without a lot of hours training the BH loop and my topspin rally game. 


-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/03/2023 at 6:00pm
Learnt that for short balls exiting the side of the table it is still suboptimal to use the left foot to step up - the correct way is still to use the right leg - this gives a lot more power to the chiquita and also has much larger reach, and also you can control pushes much easier. This was clarified by a  recent exCNT member (Sun Hao Hong). That means the advice I got from Stiga's channel by Zhang Hui was incorrect lol. 

Anyway I tried it out and yes, the advantages of stepping forward with the right leg are significant for these wide angle BH short balls, you can use a lot more body power in the BH chiquita/loop. 

Also, learnt why my BH short push is not short enough - I needed to use less hand and more body - also need the paddle trajectory to go more to the left and less forward.

For pushing, a slight flexion or extension in the wrist allows for the use of pronation/supination for brushing the ball which is far more controllable and spinny compared to the ulnar deviation plane. 




Edited by blahness - 01/03/2023 at 9:18pm
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2023 at 6:47am
Not sure I'm reading this correctly but Doesn't stepping forward with the right leg to a wide short backhand leave poor recovery and body weight balance to the forehand at a major disadvantage?.  Breaking one's own balance is never favourable. 






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2023 at 7:58am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Not sure I'm reading this correctly but Doesn't stepping forward with the right leg to a wide short backhand leave poor recovery and body weight balance to the forehand at a major disadvantage?.  Breaking one's own balance is never favourable. 







That's what I thought in the beginning too which is why I have always stepped to the ball with my left. I think the old school of thought (Zhang Hui also said something similar in a Stiga instructional video) is that you step with your left leg on this short wide ball. But after watching Sun Hao Hong's video and demonstration, with the right foot forward, the chiquita/BH loop can be made a lot more powerful with more angle choices because you can rotate into the shot (also it is more powerful than the normal chiquita because the table is no longer in the way - you can take a big af swing). I tested it and it is indeed true. After the shot you just recover like how you would with any chiquita off a short ball. With this there is no difference / indecision point - simply step forward with the right foot for all short balls (including wide angle balls). However this doesn't apply to wide long serves - those can just be treated normally. 


Edited by blahness - 01/04/2023 at 8:02am
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2023 at 8:51am
Banana is just entering shot.
So anyway you need to recover fast to ready position, as those who have some experience will return it and you need to be ready.
More old way of banana is (for righty) when you step in with left leg (not so deep but not so risky) and hit the ball with more "lurking" movement - does not need so much of a skill but not so aggressive and no need so much time to recover - as the move is not wide and not so long.
More modern way - step in with right leg - then you can do hit out of the bounce very risky but bit more profitable sometimes as you are applying the direction of the game.
Anyway one more time - the ball can be returned back and you need fast recovery.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2023 at 9:01am
Have you got the video so I can have a look?. Open to ideas. Is it viable for amateur players would be another question.

Stepping that far forward and around the physcial table with the right leg and body which will follow leaves a lot of ground and recovery. It also leaves a big issue with the pocket,hip,elbow area being exposed to attack when moving back one would think as well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2023 at 9:12am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Have you got the video so I can have a look?. Open to ideas. Is it viable for amateur players would be another question.

Stepping that far forward and around the physcial table with the right leg and body which will follow leaves a lot of ground and recovery. It also leaves a big issue with the pocket,hip,elbow area being exposed to attack when moving back one would think as well.

No - do not have such a video.
It's imho obvious.
Myself not so good in English - so decided not to do videos in English - not to have too many questions about not connected with TT stuff things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2023 at 10:08am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Not sure I'm reading this correctly but Doesn't stepping forward with the right leg to a wide short backhand leave poor recovery and body weight balance to the forehand at a major disadvantage?.  Breaking one's own balance is never favourable. 







That's what I thought in the beginning too which is why I have always stepped to the ball with my left. I think the old school of thought (Zhang Hui also said something similar in a Stiga instructional video) is that you step with your left leg on this short wide ball. But after watching Sun Hao Hong's video and demonstration, with the right foot forward, the chiquita/BH loop can be made a lot more powerful with more angle choices because you can rotate into the shot (also it is more powerful than the normal chiquita because the table is no longer in the way - you can take a big af swing). I tested it and it is indeed true. After the shot you just recover like how you would with any chiquita off a short ball. With this there is no difference / indecision point - simply step forward with the right foot for all short balls (including wide angle balls). However this doesn't apply to wide long serves - those can just be treated normally. 

There isn't a public link to the videos you are referencing, even if they are untranslated?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2023 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Banana is just entering shot.
So anyway you need to recover fast to ready position, as those who have some experience will return it and you need to be ready.
More old way of banana is (for righty) when you step in with left leg (not so deep but not so risky) and hit the ball with more "lurking" movement - does not need so much of a skill but not so aggressive and no need so much time to recover - as the move is not wide and not so long.
More modern way - step in with right leg - then you can do hit out of the bounce very risky but bit more profitable sometimes as you are applying the direction of the game.
Anyway one more time - the ball can be returned back and you need fast recovery.

Yes that is what I did in my last match (stepping in with left), my BH opening loop/chiquita was easily handled by my penholder opponent who simply did whatever he pleased with the weaker ball (pivoting to FH loopkill it, TPB punch block, sidespin block and even the fast redirect to the deep FH). Even after opening I was already at a disadvantage which was frustrating. 

So against normal opponents stepping with my left leg to chiquita with all the variations I had would have already been killer for them, but these guy is just too good at reading spin - I need to go to the next level to actually punish these balls decisively.

With the right leg you can apply a lot more body rotation power in the BH. Recovery is not an issue - you recover the exact same way you would off any other chiquita where you step in with your right leg anyways...


Edited by blahness - 01/04/2023 at 8:23pm
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2023 at 5:38pm
9.20 UyG:/ 复制打开抖音,看看【乒乓云课堂的作品】反手短上右脚 孙浩弘乒乓 乒乓球教学# 乒乓球 #... https://v.douyin.com/kYqpkpD/
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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/04/2023 at 6:04pm
Stepping with right foot to receive a normal backhand flick no problem, totally standard . To wide backhand, short and wide off table with right foot I don't think is workable unless the ball is weak or level is extremely high.

I'll knock up a quick sketch when I have a mo to show what I'm thinking and hopefully it will get my view across a bit better. I might be thinking of it totally incorrect but it will explain how I'm thinking hopefully. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2023 at 4:44am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Stepping with right foot to receive a normal backhand flick no problem, totally standard . To wide backhand, short and wide off table with right foot I don't think is workable unless the ball is weak or level is extremely high.

I'll knock up a quick sketch when I have a mo to show what I'm thinking and hopefully it will get my view across a bit better. I might be thinking of it totally incorrect but it will explain how I'm thinking hopefully. 

Interested to know some of these arguments to the contrary before I train this particular footwork pattern into my mind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2023 at 4:48am
Trained some pivoting today (usually I don't pivot much). I followed Sun Hao Hong's tutorial on how to pivot very quickly by stepping hard on the left foot (not gently), and only waiting till the ball is hit before moving (had to be super disciplined with it). 

I think I'm seeing some results now - this method of deliberate hard stepping on the left foot allows a very quick pivot. The FH pivot is indeed way more powerful than my BH. 

However for the life of me I can never recover to get any blocks headed to the wide FH lol. The max distance I could cover (after FH pivoting), is a ball to the middle line - I can loop again with the FH for those. 

Edit: watched a few videos on the footwork technique and apparently I'm supposed to do an immediate spring-like bounce back from the left leg to reset the right leg to roughly the middle BH before performing the crossover step, without that spring like bounce back the crossover step will be too large and impractical. Will try that next time I do pivot training. 
Apparently after the last step of the crossover step the weight needs to be on the left foot during the landing, and there then needs to be a quick stepping of the right foot after that to push back to neutral position. 

Other things I trained - the "sticky defence mode" where no matter where the opponent loops/counters you absorb the incoming speed/spin to create a very stable medium speed deep ball with a good topspin arc with a generous net clearance.

Started incorporating no spin serves both short and long into my arsenal of FH pendulum/hook serve movements, it's just another variation. 

Trained looping against a defender and incorporate the concept of index finger to control the direction of force application and spin. 

I found another treasure trove of footwork tutorial videos from Yin Hang (also an ex CNT 1st team member who beat ZJK once before)


Edited by blahness - 01/06/2023 at 5:47pm
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Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2023 at 5:29am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Stepping with right foot to receive a normal backhand flick no problem, totally standard . To wide backhand, short and wide off table with right foot I don't think is workable unless the ball is weak or level is extremely high.

I'll knock up a quick sketch when I have a mo to show what I'm thinking and hopefully it will get my view across a bit better. I might be thinking of it totally incorrect but it will explain how I'm thinking hopefully. 

Interested to know some of these arguments to the contrary before I train this particular footwork pattern into my mind.


Here's what I am thinking As I said with a wide ball off the table wide across the table. Please excuse the rather rushed crude rough sketch. The red blob is what I believe is the proposed right foot placements. If that's the case then I can't see this being viable. The black blobs are roughly standard rigth foot receives placements for in reach strokes. Again these are rough. If that angle was in play I would use a left leg wide movement to cover the extreme angle then push off to recover.

Am I right in my thinking of what you are talking about? If that red blob is correct the recovery triangle for that is quite poor. While not quite an open door it's pretty close.

That's my thinking of a wide off the table backhand receive.

And yes it is very unlikely I will ever win anything award wise for my sketch! Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2023 at 6:25am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Stepping with right foot to receive a normal backhand flick no problem, totally standard . To wide backhand, short and wide off table with right foot I don't think is workable unless the ball is weak or level is extremely high.

I'll knock up a quick sketch when I have a mo to show what I'm thinking and hopefully it will get my view across a bit better. I might be thinking of it totally incorrect but it will explain how I'm thinking hopefully. 

Interested to know some of these arguments to the contrary before I train this particular footwork pattern into my mind.


Here's what I am thinking As I said with a wide ball off the table wide across the table. Please excuse the rather rushed crude rough sketch. The red blob is what I believe is the proposed right foot placements. If that's the case then I can't see this being viable. The black blobs are roughly standard rigth foot receives placements for in reach strokes. Again these are rough. If that angle was in play I would use a left leg wide movement to cover the extreme angle then push off to recover.

Am I right in my thinking of what you are talking about? If that red blob is correct the recovery triangle for that is quite poor. While not quite an open door it's pretty close.

That's my thinking of a wide off the table backhand receive.

And yes it is very unlikely I will ever win anything award wise for my sketch! Wink

In the proposed solution, the bottom black dot is the left foot and the red dots would be potential right foot placements to receive this serve. You simply push off both feet to recover to centre position (right foot roughly at midline) after the loop. 

For me personally I keep my left foot sort of in line with the left edge of the table, so in fact it is even simpler than the left foot method because it's 1 step rather than 2 required to be in position, and pretty much also 1 step to get back into position rather than 2.

With the left foot method, you need to step with your right foot to where the left foot is, and then step forward with your left foot (ie 2 steps), and same for the recovery.


Edited by blahness - 01/06/2023 at 6:26am
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FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2023 at 7:24am
So we are proposing moving the right leg from the ready position when receiving serve around the left corner of the table playing the stroke and then recovering to cover the obvious hole on the recovery triangle which that leaves...

Thats serious fast feet and I might say not totally viable for none elite players . If its an outright winner fair enough mind if it comes back I can see issues with getting from that extreme backhand ball and then covering the wide angle area. I would personally target this when returning someone in that position all day long as its not going to be of quality. 

Interesting to see how this goes and if you adopt it into your game or find a different solution.

The sketch is horrendous isn't it! 😊 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longrange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2023 at 7:41am
Here's Wang Chuqin stepping in with the forehand foot to banana:
Very powerful indeed, but he gets punished, since the opponent is certainly waiting. At 8:4 WCQ does more of a side step and wins the point. I didn't analyze the game but these two I noticed yesterday.
Now if I was playing against this serve, I'd go forehand foot, that's seems to be a good idea on my level.


Edited by longrange - 01/06/2023 at 7:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2023 at 8:07am
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

Here's Wang Chuqin stepping in with the forehand foot to banana:
Very powerful indeed, but he gets punished, since the opponent is certainly waiting. At 8:4 WCQ does more of a side step and wins the point. I didn't analyze the game but these two I noticed yesterday.
Now if I was playing against this serve, I'd go forehand foot, that's seems to be a good idea on my level.

Thanks for the valuable video, this is exactly what I was talking about. The wide serve at 8:4 is fast and long whereas the first one is the slow, short wide serve. I think there has to be a distinction between the length of these super wide serve. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2023 at 11:10am
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

Here's Wang Chuqin stepping in with the forehand foot to banana:
Very powerful indeed, but he gets punished, since the opponent is certainly waiting. At 8:4 WCQ does more of a side step and wins the point. I didn't analyze the game but these two I noticed yesterday.
Now if I was playing against this serve, I'd go forehand foot, that's seems to be a good idea on my level.

I agree as well .. the hole created even for the top elite players is troublesome let alone mortals. Moving the right foot that far from ready position at such as angle and also the tell.... the recovery triangle is massive and I can't see it viable unless an outright winner or shot to nothing almost. My question would always be how to get to the wide angle or down the line stroke with any quality after such a stroke with consistency. 

It will interesting if the tactic is used in the higher level and then filter down to us mortals. 


Edited by ghostzen - 01/06/2023 at 11:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2023 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

Here's Wang Chuqin stepping in with the forehand foot to banana:
Very powerful indeed, but he gets punished, since the opponent is certainly waiting. At 8:4 WCQ does more of a side step and wins the point. I didn't analyze the game but these two I noticed yesterday.
Now if I was playing against this serve, I'd go forehand foot, that's seems to be a good idea on my level.

I agree as well .. the hole created even for the top elite players is troublesome let alone mortals. Moving the right foot that far from ready position at such as angle and also the tell.... the recovery triangle is massive and I can't see it viable unless an outright winner or shot to nothing almost. My question would always be how to get to the wide angle or down the line stroke with any quality after such a stroke with consistency. 

It will interesting if the tactic is used in the higher level and then filter down to us mortals. 

How is it not a huge gaping hole if you step with your left foot to loop and it gets countered to the wide FH with pace? You still need two steps to get back to neutral and then a crossover step to get to the wide FH. 
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BH: D05

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longrange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2023 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

I agree as well .. the hole created even for the top elite players is troublesome let alone mortals. Moving the right foot that far from ready position at such as angle and also the tell.... the recovery triangle is massive and I can't see it viable unless an outright winner or shot to nothing almost. My question would always be how to get to the wide angle or down the line stroke with any quality after such a stroke with consistency. 

It will interesting if the tactic is used in the higher level and then filter down to us mortals. 
Yes, it's all or nothing. But if I step in for a chiquita from forehand corner it's not much better: block along the diagonal and I'm toasted. Happens, but on my level this risk is totally worth it.
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