Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Service return: Short side spin
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Service return: Short side spin
 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
AlexZ View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 12/22/2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 61 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlexZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Service return: Short side spin
    Posted: 10/05/2012 at 2:57pm
Hi All:  I need a little help on returning short side spin.  I am a right-handed shakehander, USATT rating about 1700. Against higher rated players, they would serve short side spin (pendulum serve) -- which lands near the center line on my side of the table, but jumps to my backhand sideline.
 
I can't handle this type of serve will, since I can't loop it (backhand loop or forehand loop). When I push it, it typically ends up high and long, and the other guy is just waiting there to loop kill it.
 
How do you guys handle this?  Any tips would be appreciated.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
tpgh2k View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/14/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2103 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tpgh2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2012 at 4:03pm
is this pure sidespin or a combination of side and top/underspin?.

either way, you have 2 options: push or flip. 

the push is an angled push similar to that against topspin. while the flip is going to be tougher for you since it seems that you haven't tried it yet. 

for me, the flips are easier because it's basically a shortened loop (fh or bh). 
www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis
Timo Boll Spirit FL
H3 Blue Sponge Black FH
Tenergy 64 Red BH

Back to Top
AlexZ View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 12/22/2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 61 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlexZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2012 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

is this pure sidespin or a combination of side and top/underspin?.

either way, you have 2 options: push or flip. 

the push is an angled push similar to that against topspin. while the flip is going to be tougher for you since it seems that you haven't tried it yet. 

for me, the flips are easier because it's basically a shortened loop (fh or bh). 
I think my last opponent first served with side-under, then side-top.  Since I don't know how to do backhand flip, he then kept serving side-top to me. That's why I was so frustrated.
 
The suggestion that I should try backhand flip is a valuable one to me:  This will point out what next skill I should learn to acquire. Thanks!
 
Also, when you say "angled push", you mean to keep the paddle face quite vertical, but "pushing" downwards (toward the table), am I right?
Back to Top
hookumsnivy View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/04/2010
Location: Syracuse, NY
Status: Offline
Points: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2012 at 5:23pm
I figured it had to be side-top based since you said it was popping up long.  I'm guessing you have similar trouble against short top as well.
tpgh2k touched on 2 of the potential solutions - both of which would work.  If the ball isn't really low, there is another solution though it's hard to explain in words without confusing it with other shots.  I want to say shove, but I don't want to confuse it with something else.  You kind of just softly guide the ball.  Instead of adding spin one way or the other, you're just letting their spin do the work and placing it.  Unless your opponent has backed off the table, I would suggest placing it as deep as you can and toward their middle to make it harder for them to attack.  The shot doesn't have to be very fast, the goal is really just to prevent a strong opening.
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14845 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2012 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by AlexZ AlexZ wrote:

Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

is this pure sidespin or a combination of side and top/underspin?.

either way, you have 2 options: push or flip. 

the push is an angled push similar to that against topspin. while the flip is going to be tougher for you since it seems that you haven't tried it yet. 

for me, the flips are easier because it's basically a shortened loop (fh or bh). 
I think my last opponent first served with side-under, then side-top.  Since I don't know how to do backhand flip, he then kept serving side-top to me. That's why I was so frustrated.
 
The suggestion that I should try backhand flip is a valuable one to me:  This will point out what next skill I should learn to acquire. Thanks!
 
Also, when you say "angled push", you mean to keep the paddle face quite vertical, but "pushing" downwards (toward the table), am I right?

The angle should depend on the amount of spin, but for side top, your paddle needs to be closed.  The problem is that for most people, it is counter intuitive that they don't need to lift a ball that is close to the net over the net, but practice with someone who can serve topspin short and push with a slightly closed racket face and voila, the ball goes over.
 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
Ashes View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 06/25/2010
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 102 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ashes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2012 at 6:14pm
You can execute a simple sideways stroke of your own, to control the spin better. If he's right handed and serves pendulum, then you receive with your forehand, moving it from right to left, to play with the spin on the ball. Depending on your stroke speed you can either add or subtract spin, but what will be most noticeable is the fact that the ball will not grip that hard on your rubbers and will be easier to control placement. 

For some reason many amateur players are not able to serve under spin pendulum so, mostly you can count on top side spin or pure side spin. That should be easy to flick if you hit close to the highest point while the ball is still on the rise.
Blade: YEO FH: H3P BH: Pryde 40
Back to Top
Tinykin View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/30/2003
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 2337 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2012 at 6:19pm
Sounds to me that the OP's ready stance is too close to the table. Or too square on forcing him into awkward BH returns.
I know that we always say this, but a picture paints a thousand words. Try and video one of your matches so that all can better analyse what is happening.
Blade:
Darker Speed90
Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg

Delusion is an asset
Back to Top
AlexZ View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 12/22/2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 61 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlexZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2012 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by AlexZ AlexZ wrote:

Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

is this pure sidespin or a combination of side and top/underspin?.

either way, you have 2 options: push or flip. 

the push is an angled push similar to that against topspin. while the flip is going to be tougher for you since it seems that you haven't tried it yet. 

for me, the flips are easier because it's basically a shortened loop (fh or bh). 
I think my last opponent first served with side-under, then side-top.  Since I don't know how to do backhand flip, he then kept serving side-top to me. That's why I was so frustrated.
 
The suggestion that I should try backhand flip is a valuable one to me:  This will point out what next skill I should learn to acquire. Thanks!
 
Also, when you say "angled push", you mean to keep the paddle face quite vertical, but "pushing" downwards (toward the table), am I right?

The angle should depend on the amount of spin, but for side top, your paddle needs to be closed.  The problem is that for most people, it is counter intuitive that they don't need to lift a ball that is close to the net over the net, but practice with someone who can serve topspin short and push with a slightly closed racket face and voila, the ball goes over.
 
Yes, indeed it is counter intuitive that we don't need to lift a ball.  I am still lost as to how I can push with a slightly closed racket face?  With a slightly closed racket face, I would be "hitting" the ball, not pushing it?
Back to Top
AlexZ View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 12/22/2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 61 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlexZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2012 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

Sounds to me that the OP's ready stance is too close to the table. Or too square on forcing him into awkward BH returns.
I know that we always say this, but a picture paints a thousand words. Try and video one of your matches so that all can better analyse what is happening.
Yes, I think you're right -- I am quite close to the table. And a bit too square.
I have a video of me playing a practice match with a friend (similar rating) TWO YEARS ago; I'd like to think that I have improved a little bit since. If that's going to be helpful, I can show the video link here.
Back to Top
AlexZ View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 12/22/2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 61 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlexZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2012 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by Ashes Ashes wrote:

You can execute a simple sideways stroke of your own, to control the spin better. If he's right handed and serves pendulum, then you receive with your forehand, moving it from right to left, to play with the spin on the ball. Depending on your stroke speed you can either add or subtract spin, but what will be most noticeable is the fact that the ball will not grip that hard on your rubbers and will be easier to control placement. 

For some reason many amateur players are not able to serve under spin pendulum so, mostly you can count on top side spin or pure side spin. That should be easy to flick if you hit close to the highest point while the ball is still on the rise.
OK ... you suggest using my forehand, and swipe the incoming ball from my right to my left (so that the returned ball lands on my opponent's forehand side). I will try this with someone.
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14845 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2012 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by AlexZ AlexZ wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by AlexZ AlexZ wrote:

Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

is this pure sidespin or a combination of side and top/underspin?.

either way, you have 2 options: push or flip. 

the push is an angled push similar to that against topspin. while the flip is going to be tougher for you since it seems that you haven't tried it yet. 

for me, the flips are easier because it's basically a shortened loop (fh or bh). 
I think my last opponent first served with side-under, then side-top.  Since I don't know how to do backhand flip, he then kept serving side-top to me. That's why I was so frustrated.
 
The suggestion that I should try backhand flip is a valuable one to me:  This will point out what next skill I should learn to acquire. Thanks!
 
Also, when you say "angled push", you mean to keep the paddle face quite vertical, but "pushing" downwards (toward the table), am I right?

 

The angle should depend on the amount of spin, but for side top, your paddle needs to be closed.  The problem is that for most people, it is counter intuitive that they don't need to lift a ball that is close to the net over the net, but practice with someone who can serve topspin short and push with a slightly closed racket face and voila, the ball goes over.
 
Yes, indeed it is counter intuitive that we don't need to lift a ball.  I am still lost as to how I can push with a slightly closed racket face?  With a slightly closed racket face, I would be "hitting" the ball, not pushing it?

It's really a shove or flick, but the point is that if you read the spin correctly, you can make contact with the ball closed.  Of course, it is usually safer to add some of your topspin too in case you misread the spin, but the point is that the ball will not just go into the net with a closed angle.  It's just hard to trust the physics when you are not used to serving topspin short.  In fact, one way of solving your problem is to develop a short topspin serve.  When you see what it does to people who push it with a very open racket, you'll believe in the solution.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
power7 View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 01/25/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2012 at 1:02am
If it is side spin going to backhand, just angle the paddle \ and open if there is underspin and close if topspin.

If you can't attack it with a flip, then go for a dink with very little pace or spin, either short or half long to his weaker side.  It should force them to give you a weaker return that goes long, if they are not ready for it, which should be an easy kill.
DHS PG-7, H3 Neo, 729-5

Butterfly Power-7, Red TG2 Neo 39degree, Black Donic Bluefire M1
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5443 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2012 at 1:22am
this serve is indeed very hard to push correctly using BH (even if you tilt your paddle to the left), unless you have really good push feeling and control (might be something you want to work on). I have encountered players who can BH push absolutely everything, low, deep and extremely spinny...

I also like to use this serve and it gets me many points usually since the heavy sidespin is not that easily countered, and if you don't read the topspin/underspin component it makes your problem worse. 

Usually I have two methods of receiving this type of serve. 

1) Step around to receive the serve with FH. (sounds hard but it's not that hard in reality). It's much easier to angle your paddle that way with your FH. However, you need to make a high quality return, otherwise it somehow opens up your deep FH. 

2) BH over-the-table loop. It's not that hard actually, just cock your wrist inwards and make your bat travel anticlockwise around the ball's side. It can pretty much handle any sort of spin, it's quite a safe return since you're actively producing spin, and also it's pretty hard for the other person to handle due to the sidespin. This is my return of choice at the moment, because it makes it a topspin rally which I like, and against lesser opponents they just miss the ball completely...
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
AlexZ View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 12/22/2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 61 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlexZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2012 at 2:53am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

this serve is indeed very hard to push correctly using BH (even if you tilt your paddle to the left), unless you have really good push feeling and control (might be something you want to work on). I have encountered players who can BH push absolutely everything, low, deep and extremely spinny...

I also like to use this serve and it gets me many points usually since the heavy sidespin is not that easily countered, and if you don't read the topspin/underspin component it makes your problem worse. 

Usually I have two methods of receiving this type of serve. 

1) Step around to receive the serve with FH. (sounds hard but it's not that hard in reality). It's much easier to angle your paddle that way with your FH. However, you need to make a high quality return, otherwise it somehow opens up your deep FH. 

2) BH over-the-table loop. It's not that hard actually, just cock your wrist inwards and make your bat travel anticlockwise around the ball's side. It can pretty much handle any sort of spin, it's quite a safe return since you're actively producing spin, and also it's pretty hard for the other person to handle due to the sidespin. This is my return of choice at the moment, because it makes it a topspin rally which I like, and against lesser opponents they just miss the ball completely...
 
Yes, I think I will invest some time learning to do the backhand flip.
Back to Top
Benigma View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/03/2012
Location: land of hope
Status: Offline
Points: 240 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benigma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2012 at 3:35am
Backhand and forehand flips can be an invaluable weapon when doing service returns, especially if you have good ball placement.  In your case, if it is pure side spin which goes short, I would suggest that you you play with the spin and execute a sideways motion on the ball so that the ball goes back to your opponent with the ball spinning the same way that it came to you- effectively adding more spin to it. (I think a couple of people already mentioned this). 

If its topspin-side spin and goes short, I would do a backspin push with a slightly closed racket angle so that the topspin doesn't  force the ball to go long- maybe keep the blade angle around 50 degrees give or take depending on the amount of topspin.   
Back to Top
alborz View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/23/2012
Location: Tehran
Status: Offline
Points: 274 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alborz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2012 at 8:21am
if it have sidespin or topspin i will flick it , if it have backspin i will push it short into forehand or fast into backhand .
Balde : Donic Epox Control
Forehand : Donic BlueFire M1 (Black / MAX)
Backhand : Donic Vario Big Slam (Red / MAX)

Zhang Jike : Man Of Steel
Back to Top
Loop40mm View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 11/17/2011
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 416 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Loop40mm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2012 at 11:47am

I wonder whether receiving short sidespin is not an issue or easier to traditional penholders.

 

On Sunday I played a player who served sidespin serves more or less in the middle.  Initially I was trying to decide whether to receive from backhand or forehand and I didn’t do very well.  Most of the serves were fast side topspin and very spinny.

 

I am a penholder with RPB and I don’t use traditional penhold backhand blocks.  I figured most of his sidespin serves were near the middle.  I decided to prepare the RPB with paddle in horizontal mode if the serve was sidespin. (There was no backhand loop motion.) I wanted to keep the stroke small to reduce the time to react to the curve of the ball.  If the serve was topspin, I would block back.  If the sidespin serve had underspin, I would add some topspin.  It worked.  I also kept my stance low so I could see better how the ball was curving while I blocked.
Stiga Ebenholz NCT V

FH Tenergy 05

BH DHS Tin Arc 3
Back to Top
AlexZ View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 12/22/2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 61 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlexZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2012 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by Loop40mm Loop40mm wrote:

I wonder whether receiving short sidespin is not an issue or easier to traditional penholders.

 

On Sunday I played a player who served sidespin serves more or less in the middle.  Initially I was trying to decide whether to receive from backhand or forehand and I didn’t do very well.  Most of the serves were fast side topspin and very spinny.

 

I am a penholder with RPB and I don’t use traditional penhold backhand blocks.  I figured most of his sidespin serves were near the middle.  I decided to prepare the RPB with paddle in horizontal mode if the serve was sidespin. (There was no backhand loop motion.) I wanted to keep the stroke small to reduce the time to react to the curve of the ball.  If the serve was topspin, I would block back.  If the sidespin serve had underspin, I would add some topspin.  It worked.  I also kept my stance low so I could see better how the ball was curving while I blocked.

Shakehand should be very similar to RPB. Your description "prepare the RPB wth paddle in horizontal mode" is very graphic.  I am going to imitate that, and see if I have any better luck.
Back to Top
loop+loop View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/17/2006
Status: Offline
Points: 327 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote loop+loop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2012 at 5:14pm
You are not the only one having this trouble.

Watch the bronze match between Otcharov and Chuan Chi Yuan of the London 2012 Olympics. You will see how much trouble Chuan had with Otcharov's serves.
Back to Top
purple View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 11/10/2004
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 11 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2012 at 6:08am
Originally posted by AlexZ AlexZ wrote:

(...) they would serve short side spin (pendulum serve) -- which lands near the center line on my side of the table, but jumps to my backhand sideline.
Many of the replies on this thread are very bad quality. You need to look at the spinning axis of the ball. The ball turns the fastest on the most far away point perpendicular to the spinning axis. If you touch the ball here the spin will have most effect on your rubber. Instead you better touch the ball more on the side of the spinning axis where the ball turns much less -> easier ball control.

Now, when the ball jumps to the side after it bounces on the table as in you question, the ball does *NOT* have side spin (with real side spin the spin axis is where your racket normally would touch the ball, not where the ball touches the table -> no side jumping of the ball). In your case the spin axis of ball is where it touches the table and because of the spin jumps to the side. Now when you touch the ball with your racket you touch the ball on the side of the spinning axis and thus basically deal with a ball that turns very little at the point where you touch it with your racket. Proper answer: Don't touch this ball on the sides, top or bottom as this is where it spins the most, but touch it straight on and handle it as a no spin ball.

If the ball does not jump to the side on table when it touches the table, you deal with real side spin which means that you need to touch it either below or on top to get the least spin effect. If it's short, a simple push where you make sure to contact the ball at the bottom or when it's long enough, loop it and make sure th contact it on top of the ball to get as little negative spin effect on your racket as possible.




Edited by purple - 10/11/2012 at 9:34am
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14845 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2012 at 9:08am

Purple,

Got a few questions because I have been trying to work out what you have written on my own and have fallen short.

 

So you are saying that

 

1) pure side spin has no top/under/corkscrew spin and does not dance around and that when the ball dances it is because of rotation in the axis where the ball is moving

and

2) it is easiest to return the ball by avoiding the axis inwhich rotation is occurring thereby avoiding the heavy spiun entirely.

Am I reading you correctly?
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
purple View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 11/10/2004
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 11 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2012 at 9:30am
My English isn't very good, I'm sorry. 

1. a) The ball is a 3D object that can only have a single spinning axis i. e. strictly speaking all talk about the side-topspin and side-backspin really just tries to approximate the effects of an oblique spin axis.
b) "Dancing" effects need to be distinguised between direction changes mid air (=huge amount of spin on the ball that leads to a curved flight path) and direction changes on impact on the table surface (=the spinning ball grips on the table and changes direction according to how it's spinning).

It's difficult for me to describe in English, but it's very easily understood if you try such side-kick-serves yourself which isn't hard to do (strike ball from right to left from *underneath* when serving. The ball will fly straight ahead and then kick sharply to the left abruptly when it touches on the other side of the table. This is a "classic" serve where people often miss the ball completely if they haven't paid attention to the serve.

2. No, it's the easiest if you touch the ball where it spins the *slowest* i. e. as closely to the spinning axis as possible. Avoid the fastest spinning points on the ball if this is possible to make control easier.



Edited by purple - 10/11/2012 at 9:39am
Back to Top
tsanyc View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 05/23/2006
Location: Mt. Hinoki
Status: Offline
Points: 2367 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tsanyc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2012 at 10:26am
need SP on your BH to just push it.
My Feedback
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14845 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2012 at 11:35am
Originally posted by purple purple wrote:

My English isn't very good, I'm sorry. 
 
Your English is quite good.  You're probably a genius in your own language.
Quote
1. a) The ball is a 3D object that can only have a single spinning axis i. e. strictly speaking all talk about the side-topspin and side-backspin really just tries to approximate the effects of an oblique spin axis.
 
Yes, similar to vector analysis.  But I am beginning to appreciate your point more because sometimes, when I go against a spin, what I expect to be sidespin acts like underspin on racket contact.
 
Quote
b) "Dancing" effects need to be distinguised between direction changes mid air (=huge amount of spin on the ball that leads to a curved flight path) and direction changes on impact on the table surface (=the spinning ball grips on the table and changes direction according to how it's spinning).
 
Thanks for this - I think this is the logical insight that I may have been missing.
 

Quote
It's difficult for me to describe in English, but it's very easily understood if you try such side-kick-serves yourself which isn't hard to do (strike ball from right to left from *underneath* when serving. The ball will fly straight ahead and then kick sharply to the left abruptly when it touches on the other side of the table. This is a "classic" serve where people often miss the ball completely if they haven't paid attention to the serve.
 
I use this serve from left to right on the backhand.
 

Quote
2. No, it's the easiest if you touch the ball where it spins the *slowest* i. e. as closely to the spinning axis as possible. Avoid the fastest spinning points on the ball if this is possible to make control easier.

Thanks.  I was trying to say what you said but I forgot that the axis is line through the center, not the rotation line/circle.   
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5443 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2012 at 8:36am
wow can you really receive a pure sidespin serve by brushing only the top of the ball to avoid the spin-axis? I never thought of that before, i've always thought sidespin can only be countered by using the angle of your bat to counteract the tendency of the ball to shoot sideways (i.e. if the ball tends to go to the right then you angle your bat towards the left a bit more)

Actually, thinking about it, is there actually 2 types of sidespin?!!! one where the spinning axis touches the table and one where the spinning axis does not touch the table and runs through the "equator" of the ball. then there will be two different ways of dealing with it...
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14845 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2012 at 9:58am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

wow can you really receive a pure sidespin serve by brushing only the top of the ball to avoid the spin-axis? I never thought of that before, i've always thought sidespin can only be countered by using the angle of your bat to counteract the tendency of the ball to shoot sideways (i.e. if the ball tends to go to the right then you angle your bat towards the left a bit more)


It's similar to looping underspin by going through the side of the ball.    What happens is that you either knock the ball off its axis or a topspin to the sidespin so you let the sidespin control the direction and you return with top.

Quote
Actually, thinking about it, is there actually 2 types of sidespin?!!! one where the spinning axis touches the table and one where the spinning axis does not touch the table and runs through the "equator" of the ball. then there will be two different ways of dealing with it...


Yes, the first is usually called "corkscrew" in its pure form.  I have noticed that when I serve corkscrew, some people try to hit it like regular underspin and go round the side and get surprised when they can't overcome the spin in that direction.  But when they hit it like regular no-spin or top going directly into the ball, they get a strong return that kicks off the table back at me.

Again, I thank purple for making me think through this a bit more because I think that practicing it will enrich my service return game.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
danhs View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/04/2005
Status: Offline
Points: 445 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danhs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2012 at 10:13am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

wow can you really receive a pure sidespin serve by brushing only the top of the ball to avoid the spin-axis? I never thought of that before, i've always thought sidespin can only be countered by using the angle of your bat to counteract the tendency of the ball to shoot sideways (i.e. if the ball tends to go to the right then you angle your bat towards the left a bit more)

Actually, thinking about it, is there actually 2 types of sidespin?!!! one where the spinning axis touches the table and one where the spinning axis does not touch the table and runs through the "equator" of the ball. then there will be two different ways of dealing with it...
The type of "sidespin" which kicks sharply on contact with the table (axis is horizontal) is generally called "corkscrew" spin. As mentioned this can be looped like a no-spin ball since the side directly facing the receiver (the back of the ball) has the slowest rotation.
    Against actual sidespin (vertical axis) tacky rubbers are useful since you can come over the top of the ball more easily.  Or get underneath and load up the underspin.
Back to Top
Gallifax View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 11/20/2012
Location: Who cares?
Status: Offline
Points: 20 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gallifax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2012 at 3:11am
"
wow can you really receive a pure sidespin serve by brushing only the top of the ball to avoid the spin-axis? I never thought of that before, i've always thought sidespin can only be countered by using the angle of your bat to counteract the tendency of the ball to shoot sideways (i.e. if the ball tends to go to the right then you angle your bat towards the left a bit more)"

By avoiding the spin axis you can indeed put your own spin on the ball easier, but it needs to be a very fast motion, wrist usage helps there.

Short sidespin you can go over it with the bat closed, needs to be fast and hit at the top of the bounce or a little earlier.

How well you can negate the spin on the ball and replace it with your own depends on the spin you put on.

So fast brushing action adds more of your own spin.

It really works for any spin.
Back to Top
smackman View Drop Down
Assistant Moderator
Assistant Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 07/20/2009
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 3264 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2012 at 5:34am
Just aim to your left to get rid of the sidespin
Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website
Back to Top
igorponger View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/29/2006
Location: Everywhere
Status: Offline
Points: 3252 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2012 at 12:32pm
@AlexZ

Just click here....

http://www.youtube.com/results?gl=EN&client=mv-google&hl=en&search_type=search_all&q=how+to+return+side+spIn
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.344 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2024 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.