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"straight arm" loop

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 9:15am
Yeah, but the straight arm still happens..see my links posted
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 9:35am
This is getting silly. 150 degrees is quite straight arm, but the bigger point is really that you should use whatever technique lets you hit the ball consistently while generating significant torque is good. A straighter arm has more torque but can be jammed more easily by strokes to the body and is harder to intuitively control. The best players loop with their arms in multiple positions while defaulting to what they are most comfortable with most of the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 9:42am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

This is getting silly. 150 degrees is quite straight arm, but the bigger point is really that you should use whatever technique lets you hit the ball consistently while generating significant torque is good. A straighter arm has more torque but can be jammed more easily by strokes to the body and is harder to intuitively control. The best players loop with their arms in multiple positions while defaulting to what they are most comfortable with most of the time.


Agreed. Lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 10:32am
Originally posted by atv atv wrote:

The straight arm loop doesn't mean 180deg all the time, it only starts with it and then forearm should bend right before the contact point. It's all about adding angular velocity from three stages: upper arm, forearm and wrist, the add up of all three should reach max speed during contact and follow through. So before hitting the forearm will have to bend in, then the wrist gives the final push like a three-stage rocket. For penholders there is a fourth stage: fingers, but that is too advanced for mortals...

Actually the SH big boys use fingers just as much as the Penholders. It's just that it's not as obvious when looking at the stroke. Some of them will even let go of the thumb and index and use the pinky+ring finger. Look closely at some of those bat up, wild, side-spin strokes, that's what they are doing.
Another SH/PH shot heavily dependent on fingers, is the disguised float/underspin loop. Again, this explains why in some loop to loop rallies, one player puts the ball deep into the net then stares at his bat.
Then there is the down the line no-loop loop. Used a lot against defenders. The looper spins one deep. The next ball he fakes to loop but instead, the ball fades and even double bounces on the table. Loads of control from the thumb+fingers are necessary here to get it right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 11:06am
Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

Originally posted by atv atv wrote:

The straight arm loop doesn't mean 180deg all the time, it only starts with it and then forearm should bend right before the contact point. It's all about adding angular velocity from three stages: upper arm, forearm and wrist, the add up of all three should reach max speed during contact and follow through. So before hitting the forearm will have to bend in, then the wrist gives the final push like a three-stage rocket. For penholders there is a fourth stage: fingers, but that is too advanced for mortals...

Actually the SH big boys use fingers just as much as the Penholders. It's just that it's not as obvious when looking at the stroke. Some of them will even let go of the thumb and index and use the pinky+ring finger. Look closely at some of those bat up, wild, side-spin strokes, that's what they are doing.
Another SH/PH shot heavily dependent on fingers, is the disguised float/underspin loop. Again, this explains why in some loop to loop rallies, one player puts the ball deep into the net then stares at his bat.
Then there is the down the line no-loop loop. Used a lot against defenders. The looper spins one deep. The next ball he fakes to loop but instead, the ball fades and even double bounces on the table. Loads of control from the thumb+fingers are necessary here to get it right.

I agree that SH users use a lot of fingers too, but it seems that it's way simpler than penhold, basically apply pressure using index finger for FH, thumb for BH. But pinky+ring is just to stabilise the blade, nothing more IMO, they serve as the "fulcrum" for the index/thumb. 

I'm not too sure how you do the disguise float/underspin loop, or the double bouncing fake loop. Could you show us a video where that happens?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 11:57am
Yeah, a video would be great..hard to imagine all tinykin was describing..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

 

I agree that SH users use a lot of fingers too, but it seems that it's way simpler than penhold, basically apply pressure using index finger for FH, thumb for BH. But pinky+ring is just to stabilise the blade, nothing more IMO, they serve as the "fulcrum" for the index/thumb. 

I'm not too sure how you do the disguise float/underspin loop, or the double bouncing fake loop. Could you show us a video where that happens?

The pinky + ring to stabilize the blade is the first level.  What is also possible is that you can actually get some extra torque and control from them if you do not let the handle sit in your palm, but let it sit in your fingers.   Again, I have big hands so this might not be something everyone can do, but I think that as you understand the theory of control and power and individualize your stroke, many things are possible and one should be wary of generalizations.  One could get a lighter set up so that the weight allows for fingers to add this element.  Timo Boll, as a common simple example, pushes on the forehand with his finger directly underneath his blade but does not do this for other forehand strokes.  A player at my club plays his forehand with his finger in this position (directly behind the blade) but changes it when he goes over to backhand strokes but does this finger on the racket face position more when he goes to all out forehand looping.  So just begin with the understanding of the basics, and try out things as you get better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/17/2013 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Anderni Anderni wrote:

Originally posted by reflecx reflecx wrote:

 

Here are some players who hit with straight arm.


If you watch videos of ZJK and ML playing, they mostly look like this:





+1 that was what i was talking about, 135-160 deg is about the optimum, so that you still maintain the V-shape

Notice how close they are to the table, thats when they will have more tense arms. The straight arm loop isn't used all the time. They will use it when they are off the table when they need more spin, like when they are on the run or when they have enough time like vs a chopper. But still there are some that use it more often and some that don't open up the arm all the way. 



Edited by kenneyy88 - 02/17/2013 at 12:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2013 at 2:00am
Two guys with really really straight arms.  See around 2:30 of this clip.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HowToPlayChineseLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2013 at 6:43am
i think, the arm is to keep the racket. so you can play with straight arm, V arm, 90 degree arm.

the most important is your back, which generate power, and your leg which enhance power.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttTurkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2013 at 6:56am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Two guys with really really straight arms.  See around 2:30 of this clip.


The backhand at 6:00 was quite spicy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2013 at 8:43am
the "straightness" of the arm depends on the timing, how fast the incoming ball is and how much time you have to react on the ball. usually if you are near the table and you are doing counter against fast spinny balls, you would need to have a smaller swing and more on a snapping action that is why you see them having a flexed arm. the CNT guys can do these strokes with great accuracy because of their level and training
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2013 at 10:13am
Hey, have a look at the original straight arm loopers ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=qgqcQZ-NmpI&NR=1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2013 at 11:33am
Woah! Ancient!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2013 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Hey, have a look at the original straight arm loopers ;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=qgqcQZ-NmpI&NR=1

thats a really interesting clip. I rather think its pre klampar's visit to the bicycle shop, because his and jonyers rocket loop doesnt seem to be going
quite as fast as I remember
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/18/2013 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by davidwhang davidwhang wrote:


I'm only until the wrist part then. Would be interesting to study the fingers part. Can't imaging having to focus on that when making loops. Lol


Actually focusing the fingers aka blade contact with the ball is the main thing that you should have in mind. All other things is just poetry ....

There is no use to make big movements if the contact with the ball is not appropriate. It is like trying a big uppercut but without paying attention to the contact of the fist with the opponent's jaws.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gatorling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2013 at 10:29am
Straight arm will produce a faster racket speed if the body rotation is the same. Could be because hard, tacky Chinese rubbers require a lot of speed for the ball to penetrate into the sponge in order to generate the spin and engage in any sort of catapult effect.

Could also explain why a lot of people have problems with super hard, tacky rubbers. They use a very short arm when striking the ball.

I would say that the straight arm technique is very advanced, your footwork has to be marvelous to always be at the correct distance for a perfect arm extension. Your timing has to be perfect as well.

I tried using a straight arm loop for a while, paired with tacky hard rubbers. I gave up after about a year of trying. My friend, who uses a softer rubber, started seriously out playing me.
Yes my attacks were blazing fast but I had like a 60-70% shot percentage whereas he was more like 75%-85%.
The straight arm technique paired with a hard rubber was just too demanding. I no longer have access to cheap coaching and can only play about 6-8 hours a week.
I'd estimate it'll take me a good 3-4 years before my straight arm is consistent enough..

And let's be honest, straight arm + tacky vs bent arm + soft grippy really isn't going to make much of a difference when you're < 2000.

I believe straight arm + tacky merits consideration if you're young (under 15) and have access to good coaching..and are willing to spend the first few years doing 80% drills, 20% play. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2013 at 10:41am
Originally posted by gatorling gatorling wrote:

Straight arm will produce a faster racket speed if the body rotation is the same. Could be because hard, tacky Chinese rubbers require a lot of speed for the ball to penetrate into the sponge in order to generate the spin and engage in any sort of catapult effect.

Could also explain why a lot of people have problems with super hard, tacky rubbers. They use a very short arm when striking the ball.

I would say that the straight arm technique is very advanced, your footwork has to be marvelous to always be at the correct distance for a perfect arm extension. Your timing has to be perfect as well.

I tried using a straight arm loop for a while, paired with tacky hard rubbers. I gave up after about a year of trying. My friend, who uses a softer rubber, started seriously out playing me.
Yes my attacks were blazing fast but I had like a 60-70% shot percentage whereas he was more like 75%-85%.
The straight arm technique paired with a hard rubber was just too demanding. I no longer have access to cheap coaching and can only play about 6-8 hours a week.
I'd estimate it'll take me a good 3-4 years before my straight arm is consistent enough..

And let's be honest, straight arm + tacky vs bent arm + soft grippy really isn't going to make much of a difference when you're < 2000.

I believe straight arm + tacky merits consideration if you're young (under 15) and have access to good coaching..and are willing to spend the first few years doing 80% drills, 20% play. 

+1
 
This matches my experience for the most part.  The only thing I would say is that soft grippy doesn't mean you can't use a straight arm loop - in fact, my loop drive for third ball is Xu Xin straight arm.  It just throws me out of position if I don't end the point, and I don't think the energy expended is worth it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2013 at 5:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2013 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

Is this straight or Euro-bent arm?
cool link from diegott; ma long perfect mechanics 1,2,3. deserves a thread in coaching.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2013 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

Originally posted by atv atv wrote:

The straight arm loop doesn't mean 180deg all the time, it only starts with it and then forearm should bend right before the contact point. It's all about adding angular velocity from three stages: upper arm, forearm and wrist, the add up of all three should reach max speed during contact and follow through. So before hitting the forearm will have to bend in, then the wrist gives the final push like a three-stage rocket. For penholders there is a fourth stage: fingers, but that is too advanced for mortals...

Actually the SH big boys use fingers just as much as the Penholders. It's just that it's not as obvious when looking at the stroke. Some of them will even let go of the thumb and index and use the pinky+ring finger. Look closely at some of those bat up, wild, side-spin strokes, that's what they are doing.
Another SH/PH shot heavily dependent on fingers, is the disguised float/underspin loop. Again, this explains why in some loop to loop rallies, one player puts the ball deep into the net then stares at his bat.
Then there is the down the line no-loop loop. Used a lot against defenders. The looper spins one deep. The next ball he fakes to loop but instead, the ball fades and even double bounces on the table. Loads of control from the thumb+fingers are necessary here to get it right.
I agree that SH users use a lot of fingers too, but it seems that it's way simpler than penhold, basically apply pressure using index finger for FH, thumb for BH. But pinky+ring is just to stabilise the blade, nothing more IMO, they serve as the "fulcrum" for the index/thumb. 
I'm not too sure how you do the disguise float/underspin loop, or the double bouncing fake loop. Could you show us a video where that happens?
Good idea for some future videos a friend and I are thinking of.
Anyway, think of a player going for what looks like a big side-top loop. But he lets the ball fall onto bat and he strikes underneath the ball going forward. It's similar to how one gets backspin from an inside-out serve.
Other version is that he strikes the back of the ball thus far less topspin than his opponent thinks is on it.
The fake loop is where the player sets himself up for a big cross-court loop. His opponent drops back in anticipation. At the last moment the player strokes action is straight up instead of through the ball. This takes off the pace but leaves enough topspin to carry the ball just over the net. It double bounces if perfectly done.
Scottish number 1, Gavin Rumgay, is a master of these strokes.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2013 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

Is this straight or Euro-bent arm?
cool link from diegott; ma long perfect mechanics 1,2,3. deserves a thread in coaching.


This video is like gold specially for shakehanders!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote decoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2013 at 10:00pm
Rumgay is some mad lad when he is on the beer.. him John murphy and Jenkins are a Trio of drunken mess, not in a bad way. but you should see what they are like when they drink after a competition
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hexiadetrix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/20/2013 at 8:19am
I admit I haven't read everything in this thread but my perception of a straight arm loop goes mostly to how the arm is bent backwards before the actual stroke begins.  So the motion moving backwards with the arm and the start of the stroke is having the arm straight but before contact the arm will almost always have an angle, maybe 15-20 degrees from straight arm.  This angle will depend on the position of the ball relative to your body and/or your footwork.  To me, this is a straight arm loop and the benefit is clearly added power due do more momentum gained by swinging the straight arm before curving the elbow before contact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2013 at 3:50am



especially at 0:22
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