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Would this theory work in TT?

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jrscatman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2013 at 4:29am
Found this video of Nadal's racquet speed. It shows clearly how he goes from very slow to very fast - basically accelerating the racquet head to contact. So I think that's what I'm getting from this thread. It's all about accelerating the racquet. 

Thanks to everyone for contributing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2013 at 8:31am
Jrscatman,

In terms of TT applicability, the best player commenting (APW46) gave you a lot to chew on.

Spin is a more important component of table tennis than the other racquet sports so any physics in TT should really be more vector oriented than scalar oriented.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2013 at 11:17am
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

you remind me that trick I use when I coach; I want the person to contact the ball at the highest point of its trajectory after it bounces on his/her side and the result is often too late; then I ask "can you hit the ball when it is still rising from the table?" and (s)he will be also a bit late...and hit it at the top...
the coach above may use that kind of trick, knowing that the result will not be a complete stop, just a transitional move as you precise.

How do you teach your students to time the ball? I have found that to be extremely critical to a players stroke development.
Just trying compare notes.
I do not have students; I have people who ask me to play and talk about the game and want to listen to somebody about it to get their view about the sport so they can build their own game and personal vision of it in their journey through it; I even encourage them to get coaching from other people to get another view so they can synthesize all info coming from different people. That way I do not have the annoying teacher/student relationship or the master/disciple encounter; I want to leave more room to what will be soon 2 new tt buddies and I just charge to make sure I take the hour as the most important piece of time ever and they listen well at the same time.

To answer your question about timing the ball I use my favorite quote in tt: "bounce with the ball"; I like it because it contains so much information in a funny and so short quote; it's about rhythm (tempo) and dancing (fluidity). It is rare to stumble on such a short piece of learning/teaching material from which we can go on and on to so many directions.

It is about crouching as the ball descends on our side after clearing the net and pushing on the legs as it rises from the bounce; timely work from the legs!

"bounce with the ball" also allows to underline the importance of playing the other person, not the ball; I encourage people to be aware of the body motion on the other side of the table because from there the knowledge of the incoming ball's trajectory is a side effect and that gives an advantage; having a virtual curtain on the end line on the other side and watching the ball coming out of it is a big loss of information; as I heard here in another context "it takes 2 to tango" LOL.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2013 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Jrscatman,

In terms of TT applicability, the best player commenting (APW46) gave you a lot to chew on.

Spin is a more important component of table tennis than the other racquet sports so any physics in TT should really be more vector oriented than scalar oriented.
Thanks NextLevel - I'll go back review his comments - I have a one track mind - so I was focused whether racquet pausing would work or not. Now, that's out of the way - I can try learn about the other things people mentioned in this thread.

fatt: I like the bouncing with the ball idea as well. Good way to stay in sync with the ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2013 at 7:21am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:


So timing in the stroke is important because the maximum racket/paddle speed is achieved at a specific place and time. If you are a little late the racket/paddle speed has already started to slow down, if you are too early the racket paddle has not yet reached it's max speed. So my take is that if you actually have to stop and wait, with your entire body, you have done your take back too early. The reason why I qualified my statement with regard to stopping the entire body is that in reality parts of your body are moving at different rates, the motion has so called lag and is cyclic. That's what I was trying to point out in my first post in this thread. All of those videos show this action and I don't see any pauses or stops in those strokes. What I see is a slowdown for timing adjustment but no stopping.




 exactly as I see it.
 Sorry been away for weekend playing TT, so I didn't get a chance to finish.

In the clips shown above, the players are Drilling, any pause in the context of their stroke production is within the tempo of the drill and part of their technique. In open Match play, on the third ball or in open play, a pause before execution is primarily to delay directional intentions, at a level where the opponent is extremely good at reading them, to produce a fatal blow. This is where a player cashes in on the time he has bought himself with his preceding shot if he gets a weaker return.
 If it is a third ball attack, he has bought time by serving so as to limit the response, so he can reasonably pre-determine the return, or the use of deceit to produce a mistake, or quite often both. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2013 at 11:02am
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:


He doesn't show he know anything about physics in his video.


And why should he?  He's teaching badminton.
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:


My definition of power is correct.  His is wrong.  I know that many equate power to speed but that confuses the issue just like the coach is confused.

No.  Get out a dictionary.  His usage is perfectly correct given the context.

Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:


Good thing he isn't teaching physics.


Good thing you aren't teaching badminton.

Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:


OK, but he is still wrong. So the coach is talking about speed after impact.  You know that pause has nothing to do with it but the coach doesn't.   It is the racquet speed at impact that is important but as I pointed out before he would get even more speed if he put his body into it.

 
I strongly suspect that the form he shows has plenty to do with generating more racquet head speed and a more powerful shot.  The stop, per se, may not be "the" reason, but it certainly may be part of a very good process for increasing the power of your badminton shot.  Keep in mind that the main teaching method that he employed was not verbal instruction.  It was physical demonstration.




Edited by wturber - 11/11/2013 at 11:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2013 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

And why should he?  He's teaching badminton.
Jay, do you believe the pause generates more power?

I think I have made it clear the coach is wrong if  power to means the conversion of energy or speed.

Quote
Good thing you aren't teaching badminton.
On this one issue would be right.  The coach should put his body into it like a tennis player does when serving if he wants more power. Adding the arm swing to the body moving forward would result in a faster racquet speed.

Quote
The stop, per se, may not be "the" reason,
The stop is not the reason for extra power.  It is the speed of the racquet.  Hinting or suggesting otherwise is not helping.  I have said above having the time to stop will generally result in a better result.  It just won't generate power.

Why do I have to keep repeating the same thing over and over?
I don't see how anybody can ignore the speed after impact formula.   It is a combination of the conservation of momentum and the COR formulas.  It isn't hard to understand.
If anybody can refute the speed after impact formula I will listen.

Quote
Keep in mind that the main teaching method that he employed was not verbal instruction.  It was physical demonstration.
It is a misleading demonstration.  It led jrscatman astray and has resulted in this long thread that is a waste of time after my first post.

If you want to advance the science of TT then experiments should be done like finding the speed of Nadal's racquet. That video is good.  Does the path of the paddle surprise anybody?  It sure looks a lot different from some of the guesses I see above.  The stroke path is useful because now one can see where in the stroke Nadal's racquet is moving the fastest.  The same can be done for TT.

"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see".  John Lennon
 





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spin83 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2013 at 2:31pm
Imo ''pause'' in stroke is nothing but short delay you take to correctly execute the stroke depending on the situation. That delay doesn't give you power, power comes from good stroke.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2013 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by Spin83 Spin83 wrote:

Imo ''pause'' in stroke is nothing but short delay you take to correctly execute the stroke depending on the situation. That delay doesn't give you power, power comes from good stroke.




That is obvious but does the pause enable you to get a better stroke, possibly because of enhanced timing? Or are those of us who can't explain why a pause might enable you to get a better stroke going to gloat about the fact that we understand Physics because we cannot gloat about our badminton expertise?

Edited by NextLevel - 11/11/2013 at 2:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2013 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Why do I have to keep repeating the same thing over and over?


You don't need to.   You seem to be hung up on making this a physics discussion - which wasn't what the badminton coach was discussing. He was demonstrating a stroke technique that results in a player making a more powerful shot.  He wasn't trying to explain "why." He was showing, "how." 

The first definition from the Merriam Webster online dictionary for "power." 

a (1) :  ability to act or produce an effect (2) :  ability to get extra-base hits (3) :  capacity for being acted upon or undergoing an effect
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/power

This is not the definition you keep using.  We don't get there until definition 6c.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spin83 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2013 at 3:07pm
For me its footwork and good technique that gives you better stroke not enhanced timing. But then again enhanced timing comes from good footwork yes?

Again pause in shot wont give you any advantage, make you better player, make your shots better if you dont use correct technique ment for table tennis strokes and this badmi and tennis videos and all this stuff is pure bs.

Never heard a player who plays tennis trying to implement some stuff from tt. Did you? But i see some players who play tennis and use tennis strokes in tt..its awful trust me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2013 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:


On this one issue would be right.  The coach should put his body into it like a tennis player does when serving if he wants more power. Adding the arm swing to the body moving forward would result in a faster racquet speed.


Actually he is doing that.
As far as his actual ability to generate racket head speed he is doing everything right. Look closely and you can see his weight shift forward and a smooth coordination of his joints in sequence from his legs to the wrist snap. He is not doing the entire thing either because he's older and probably 30lbs overweight but he knows how to do it. The arm swing is much tighter and smaller mainly because the mass of a badminton racket is considerably less that a tennis racket. Especially pro rackets that have lead weights added to them. A badminton racket weighs about the same as TT paddle, 80g to 95g unstrung. A pro tennis racket will start at around 320g on the low end and go to around 350g on the high end. Not only that the weight is mainly added to the head changing the CG distribution. So all though the stroke mechanics are nearly the same they are necessarily going to look a little different. Same reason you don't use a Tennis stroke in TT. 

Just because he is using inaccurate terms or doesn't know the correct way to explain what he is doing in terms of physics does not mean he isn't doing it right. This happens allot actually, especially in situations involving biomechanics in sports.
Edit


Edited by V-Griper - 11/11/2013 at 3:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2013 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by Spin83 Spin83 wrote:

For me its footwork and good technique that gives you better stroke not enhanced timing. But then again enhanced timing comes from good footwork yes?

Again pause in shot wont give you any advantage, make you better player, make your shots better if you dont use correct technique ment for table tennis strokes and this badmi and tennis videos and all this stuff is pure bs.

Never heard a player who plays tennis trying to implement some stuff from tt. Did you? But i see some players who play tennis and use tennis strokes in tt..its awful trust me.
Next time you play TT - try delaying one of your forehands and see if it has any effects.
I play both Tennis & TT - I find the sports are complementary - some things from TT help my Tennis and some things from Tennis help my TT. I play both sports at a recreational level - if you're an Olympic level or National level player - perhaps you might not want to mix sports. Actually, I also play Badminton - which is how all this got started.

Another important lesson in this thread is when an accomplished, international level coach says something - chances are very good he/she might know what he/she is saying - maybe our knowledge or understanding of physics might not be able explain it but that doesn't mean it's not true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2013 at 3:34pm
And if you give a mouse a cookie, chances are, he's going to want some milk to go with it.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2013 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/power

This is not the definition you keep using.  We don't get there until definition 6c.
Because jrscatman seemed to be looking for a physics answer in his second post.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2013 at 5:11am
Originally posted by Spin83 Spin83 wrote:

For me its footwork and good technique that gives you better stroke not enhanced timing. But then again enhanced timing comes from good footwork yes?

Again pause in shot wont give you any advantage, make you better player, make your shots better if you dont use correct technique ment for table tennis strokes and this badmi and tennis videos and all this stuff is pure bs.

Never heard a player who plays tennis trying to implement some stuff from tt. Did you? But i see some players who play tennis and use tennis strokes in tt..its awful trust me.

Correct timing is part of enhanced technique, but it's all semantics.

Yes, tennis strokes for TT, especially the backhand, and tennis movement are awful because of their size, but there are still tennis skills that translate to TT and vice versa, especially ball control and spin manipulation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2013 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


Correct timing is part of enhanced technique, but it's all semantics.

Yes, tennis strokes for TT, especially the backhand, and tennis movement are awful because of their size, but there are still tennis skills that translate to TT and vice versa, especially ball control and spin manipulation.


Maybe I'm being too nitpicky on semantics, but I think few tennis skills translate to TT.  Some of the concepts translate, but the actual skills - how to move, stroke mechanics, etc. - don't really translate at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2013 at 1:42pm
the only comparisons with tennis that popup are the tt step in on a fh/bh push with the right foot (right handed player) v. the same step in in fh/bh slice stroke in tennis; also the hips rotation and weight transfer from the right to left foot for a fh drive but that equally applies to a golf swing or a baseball hit. borrowing from other sports may be useful to get a different perspective in order to understand our sport's mechanics but direct applications can be dangerously misleading.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2013 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

the only comparisons with tennis that popup are the tt step in on a fh/bh push with the right foot (right handed player) v. the same step in in fh/bh slice stroke in tennis; also the hips rotation and weight transfer from the right to left foot for a fh drive but that equally applies to a golf swing or a baseball hit. borrowing from other sports may be useful to get a different perspective in order to understand our sport's mechanics but direct applications can be dangerously misleading.
Agree with fatt - I am finding a lot similarities between the various sports. I find it helpful to incorporate various techniques from one sport to the other - but that's just me. Others, complain one sport ruins their other sport - there are tennis players who refuse to play tt for the fear of ruining their tennis stroke and vice versa. 
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