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Types of Spin and serve returns

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2014 at 6:26pm
so thats serve 1 what's next, can't wait for another 3 pages  

27 serves x 3 pages = 81 pages ,

 lets go
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2014 at 8:22pm
DDreamer's argument is probably that if you follow the pendulum serve paradigm, with underspin, side under, sidespin, side top serves and topspin serves, you've already captured corkscrew serves completely in the side back and side top parts of this paradigm.

I think he is largely right if the topic is service.  I only agree with him that the approach to returning the serves is the same in a very high level contact way.  I think sidespin and sidetop/sideback are not approached the same way  - I tend to return pure side by looping the top of the ball and side top by hitting the back of the all.  But of course, I am not that high level so any explication on his part is appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clarence247 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2014 at 8:56pm
I completely agree with DDreamer - and lol @ ghost spin! 

The direction in which the ball travels and the spin the ball has are 2 different things.

I would like to add a few more elements of service receive though - it is to me not only 100% about spin (although spin is the biggest factor).

1) Spin: Side (rotating clockwise or anti clockwise simple as that - if it was originally hit to the side of the ball or at the back does not make a difference) and also  / top / backspin / no spin  + any combination of the spins (side / back for example). Forget 27 spins! It is easier to fill books if you discuss 27 spins, but it has no practical value and will not help you return serves better. 3 spins and their combinations + no spin ... that's all! 

2) amount of spin - important to read correctly and possibly harder than reading the TYPE of spin.

3) direction / trajectory: diagonal or down the line? curving or straight line? 

4) Long or short? (this makes a difference as a long backspin serve should still be attacked, however a short back spin serve should be pushed).

5) speed - sidespin / topspin serves come in clearly different speeds (thrust in forward motion) - what some people forget is that backspin serves also come in different speeds. Speed can differ from Long / Short in that not all long serves are really fast... and some short serves are a lot slower than others because the spin slows them (or even pulls them back as in the Ghost serve).


In my opinion all these are elements of a service, and will require adjustments from the receiver in order to return effectively. 




Originally posted by DDreamer DDreamer wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

DDreamer,

Usually, topspin and backspin are considered to occur in the direction of travel of the ball.  sidespin and corkscrewspin are generally not - the ball is travelling forwards but spinning on the vertical axes.  It's actually the spin most commonly used on the wiggly but some people classify it as a kind of sidespin or sidetop.
 
I think in it's pure theoretical form, it is unique.  Sidespin by itself doesn't call a ball to jump on the table - corkscrew spin does.  But since most people mix up both, it ends up being just another form of sidespin to most people.  But a hooking loop usually has more corkscrew than side.
There is no such thing as corkscrew spin! There is a corkscrew serve that has X trajectory but it doesnt have its own spin. Similarly some backspin serves continue on whilst some come back (a ghost serve for eg) but they are both backspin. There is no such thing as ghost-spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/02/2014 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by Clarence247 Clarence247 wrote:

Forget 27 spins! It is easier to fill books if you discuss 27 spins, but it has no practical value and will not help you return serves better. 

Of course not. I've made it clear that the 27 different spin combos theoretically possible (though not all possible in practice) are only of theoretical and intellectual interest. When reading spin, you don't have to identify which combos of these spins it is. You simply have to read the direction the ball is spinning and how fast it is spinning. That's it. And then you learn how to react to the various spins. 

If it's spinning with any corkscrewspin, then if you see it coming you anticipate the sideways jump. (It'll also jump off your racket, but generally less than other spins.) If it's coming with any sidespin, you anticipate the sideways jump off your racket, knowing that a firm return will minimize the effect, and aim your racket to compensate. If it has any backspin, you know you have to lift some or push. If it has any topspin you know you have to drive through it or get on top of it to topspin it. You don't consciously do any of this; with practice, it becomes second nature as you react to the way the ball is spinning. A player doesn't have to know about corkscrewspin if he is simply reacts to this type of spin by anticipating the sideways jump. 

As a side note, "ghost spin" is simply a very heavy backspin serve that, if given the chance, bounces back into the net. 
-Larry Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 05/02/2014 at 9:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2014 at 1:16am
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

I've done that before. Drawing circles is no different than finding the axis of rotation. As I noted, I don't think you are taking combinations of three spins into account. I'll go over the 27 theoretical combinations on Monday (not all are practically possible, such as a pure corkscrewspin), and there will be no redundancies; each will have a different axis of rotation (or no rotation, with no-spin), and each will be a different combo of the three main axis of rotation. (I'm pretty sure the two spins you mention above are distinct, but I'll look at it more closely before I post on Monday.) 
-Larry Hodges

All I was saying is that you get 19 spin directions if you just look at the combinations of 2 axis, plus the no spin.  I understand how you can get 8 more spin directions if you include the unique combinations of all 3 axis.  I guess my point is that those extra 8 are simply additional nuances to the first 19.  For instance, you can describe distinct serves that create sidespin-topsin, or corkscrew-backspin, and etc.  But is it useful to further describe serves that create sidespin-topspin-corkscrew for example.  Well, IMO it's not really very useful.  You could probably eliminate some of the 19 combinations as being practical as well.  Probably there are more like 15 practical spin directions to talk about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clarence247 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2014 at 6:32am
A good system would be not to differentiate by serve or spin - but to differentiate by response - describing a required response first (ie loop / attack the serve) and then group all serves where this response is most desirable and adding small notes on the slight variations needed (ie open racket a bit more, hit through a bit more, etc) 

Someone learning should immediately have access to and retain the most valuable bits of information (ones that can actually be used in a game) - therefore response and variation in response is key.

The way Larrytt dissects into 27 types of spin though still has a role - it is interesting for those who want to know / broaden their knowledge lets say theoretically. It's also entertaining after all. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2014 at 7:32am
In the interest of simplicity, I thought it would be sensible to have an understandable notation (think of the Younglings). No use of strict angles since players will typically have there own deviation from pure Top Spin, Back Spin & Side Spin. Short, medium or long serves have not been included (yet)...

If we can agree, we can then look at the best way to return such serves.

I'm assuming that I am communicating with Table Tennis players, so knowledge of the terms used are recognised.

They are all in the content of the server.

The notation:

T = Topspin (Brushing ball from bottom to top)
B = Backspin (Brushing ball from top to bottom)
S = Sidespin (Brushing ball from left to right or right to left)
U = Underspin (Brushing bottom of ball)
L = Left (Direction of bat for deviation)
R = Right (Direction of bat for deviation)

My list of serves using this notation is NOT a list of 27 variations.

1. T
2. TL
3. TR
4. B
5. BL
6. BR
7. SL
8. SR
9. UL (Corkscrew)
10. UR (Corkscrew)
...

What do you think...?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2014 at 8:54am
Originally posted by Clarence247 Clarence247 wrote:

A good system would be not to differentiate by serve or spin - but to differentiate by response - describing a required response first (ie loop / attack the serve) and then group all serves where this response is most desirable and adding small notes on the slight variations needed (ie open racket a bit more, hit through a bit more, etc) 

That's how I broke it down in my Table Tennis Tactics for Thinkers book.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2014 at 11:34am
Serve returns will be hard to cover in a book.  I think you need to make a video with marked balls and high speed recordings that can be slowed down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clarence247 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2014 at 7:52pm
Cool :)

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by Clarence247 Clarence247 wrote:

A good system would be not to differentiate by serve or spin - but to differentiate by response - describing a required response first (ie loop / attack the serve) and then group all serves where this response is most desirable and adding small notes on the slight variations needed (ie open racket a bit more, hit through a bit more, etc) 

That's how I broke it down in my Table Tennis Tactics for Thinkers book.
-Larry Hodges
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/03/2014 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Serve returns will be hard to cover in a book.  I think you need to make a video with marked balls and high speed recordings that can be slowed down.

It's difficult to teach how to return serves in a book, but you can teach the tactics of receive this way. As I note at the start and finish of Table Tennis Tactics for Thinkers, my primary goal is to get the reader to think. 

I've been toying for years with making videos, but I'm more the writer sort. But maybe someday. 

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