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The birth of modern table tennis? |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Championship level table tennis from Zhuang Zedong and I presume Li Furong. Makes you wonder why today's wonders need all the crap they need in order to stay competitive and win championships. Well, everybody's got to go sooner or later. There was Chuang, then Hasegawa and Ito, then the one color magicians, then the Hungarian speed gluers, and so forth and so on. Good video. |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1223 |
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Every question I would ever think of are already on the list.
Good job!!! Perhaps just send him greetings from us!! And a big thank you!! FdT
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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Thanks Fulanodetal. I certainly will convey our appreciation. His wife and business partner Angie Bengtsson has already indicated that they are very interested in this project. I actually hope that this may be the start of an even larger project to document the legend of table table history and their contributions. Can't wait to hear what Coach Bengtsson has to say! Edited by richrf - 11/13/2017 at 9:03pm |
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Baal
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regarding questions to Stellan, might want to ask him so many. A simple one would be, how did you train coming up and did you feel like you were playing in a new way and who influenced you or coached you?
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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Thanks Baal. I forwarded your question as the basic question that we would appreciate answering. I than added my own set and suggested that Coach Bengtsson and Angie Bengtsson can answer any they had time for our skip them all. Hopefully this works and doesn't impinge in their time since I know they are busy. I'm pretty excited since for the last 40 years I've been wondering. ☺ |
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Baal
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I can't wait to hear what he has to say. He is pretty humble. It is not easy to get him to talk about his accomplishments.
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zzzuppp
Silver Member Joined: 02/10/2004 Status: Offline Points: 762 |
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This is my sort of thread!
I have a couple of questions for Stellan - 1) Please talk freely about Ichiro Ogimura, his importance in your life and his greatness as a table tennis player, coach and administrator. 2) How's your record collection these days? Meanwhile, just before I found this thread, I discovered this video on a Swedish Film Archive, so I've uploaded it to YouTube. Footage of Stellan, Hasse Alser, Kjell Johansson, (and Birgitta Radberg, Eberhard Scholer, Jonyer...) including some training:- (Can't get it to embed properly, but here's the link:) Edited by zzzuppp - 11/14/2017 at 7:49pm |
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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Absolutely amazing video. SO much enjoyed it! Thank you!! Please spread the word around to other TT forums that you might visit with a link to this thread. Who knows what other fantastic videos that others may uncover. Sorry. I already sent the questions to Coach Bengtsson but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we have have further opportunities. |
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Baal
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Wow. I lived in Sweden just before that (until 71). It made me incredibly nostalgic! I was one of those little kids.
Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (also footage of Olof Palme). |
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king_pong
Silver Member Joined: 06/29/2010 Location: Minneapolis Status: Offline Points: 871 |
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Don't forget Stellan's 13 Swedish Men's Singles Championships -- a feat not matched even by the great Waldner (who ONLY has 10). That is extremely an impressive record for the small ping-pong nation, not likely to be equaled any time in this generation. |
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Stiga Infinity VPS (Master): fh/bh - Nittaku Hammond CR max
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Magic_M
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It would be wonderful, if Stellan Bengtsson would answer to all these questions and someone could post the answers here. By the way: wonderful videos. This is a 5-star thread for sure.
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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Hi all,
Yesterday, I forwarded some questions to his wife Angie. Hopefully he finds some time to respond to the key question concerning the development of his style. I'll post anyb response when I get it. I also have Angie the link to this thread for their review. |
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zzzuppp
Silver Member Joined: 02/10/2004 Status: Offline Points: 762 |
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Interview with Stellan Bengtsson from Denis' TTWorld, 2011 (I asked a few of these questions )
(By the way, I have 2 or 3 more Bengtsson Interviews from different stages of his career if anyone's interested)
DTTW: What is a good story or memory of Ogimura? SB: I think of Ogimura every day. He changed my life. Both as a player and as a person. I still have all of his advice very clear in my brain. He was way ahead of his time. After I won the worlds he wrote a book about my game. I just found out about it a few years ago.
DTTW: What was your mood before the 1971 Worlds began? Did you think you could win? SB: We thought we would have a good chance in the team event. Als'er, Johansson, and myself were all top 10 in the world ranking. We lost to China 3-5 after Liang Geliang made his debut with long pips. Before The worlds I had not thought too much about it. Mind you I had never won an open championship. I kind of grew into the tournament. After two matches I faced the best Chinese player Li Ching Quang who took three matches in the semis against us. I was down 8-15 and 11-16 in the fifth. I came back to win 21-19. After that I got confident, specially at the end of the games. My coach Christer Johansson made sure I was not happy after every match. A very pepping note from Ogimura before the final made me feel great. When you look at the clip from after the match I looked shocked. The focus was total.
DTTW: Which players did you least like to play against? Gomozkov perhaps? SB: I did not like to play Eberhart Scholer the German defensive player. My record with him was no good. He was a great player reaching the Worlds semis 63,65,67 and final in 69 in which he was very close to winning. Apart from him it was more up to me to play my best. When you play the best in the world all of them are very good. I played every men's singles WC from 1961-1993. I beat all of them except Jiang Jialiang. None of them were WC when I played them but I have faced some great players in my career.
DTTW: What were your strengths and weaknesses as a player when you were playing at the highest level? SB: When I played my best I was very fast on my feet and gave my opponent very little time. Serve and 3rd ball attack won me a lot of points. My return of serve was also ok so I was good at the four cornerstones. When I was playing well my weaknesses were minor but my patience with defenders early in my career and wide hard balls to my forehand did give me problems.
DTTW: If you were 16 again today, how would you develop your game differently to get to the top? SB: The game is so different today so I have to make changes. You have to have a strong backhand roll/loop. The game to 11 would fit my style. I wish they would have changed the color/show the serve contact rules when I was playing.
DTTW: I believe that you used short pimple rubber on your backhand some time in your career? If so, why? Would you recommend it today?
SB: I started with short pips in '79 after Hungary became team WC. I did not have a strong backhand topspin so pips was a good choice. I used it to change the depth of the ball to set up my forehand. For me at the time the change was very good and I had great results playing pips. Now with the 40mm ball I would not recommend it for a male player.
DTTW: Your old team-mate Kjell Johannsen was famous for his 'hammer' forehand. For those of us who never saw him, how did he do it? Was it a flat kill? Are you still in touch with him, if so what is he doing nowadays? SB: Kjell had a great forehand smash. It was flat and very fast and hard. His elbow was in front of him at impact and he had a good body turn. He could hit it with a short backswing which meant it was hard to detect. We don't have so much contact these days but we are good friends. He lives in Sweden. He has had serious physical problems with his back and knees.
DTTW: Describe your memories of the world semi v. Cai Zhenhua in 1981. Could you have won if Cai wasn't using a disguised bat/stamping on service etc? SB: My match with Cai in '81 was a great battle. I had won against him in the Swedish Open, 3-2 21-19 in the fifth and in the team event in '81 so I knew how to play him. He was very aggressive the first two sets and won easily. I fought back to win the third and fourth AND was winning 10-4 in the fifth when he changed some things. He made a great comeback and won. I sometimes think of that match today, a tough loss.
DTTW: In your opinion what is the level of imagination and genius in today's table tennis compared with past decades? Do you agree with Waldner that table tennis is becoming more robotic due to the 40mm ball and other rule changes? SB: The game today is even more physical and is going towards tennis. More power and less finesse. I agree with JO to some degree even if I can enjoy some of todays game/players. The game has become more 'simple'.
DTTW: Are you in favor of additional rule changes and if so what would you like to see? SB: I think we need a better service rule. Now the rule is very 'grey' and the umpires are not calling most of the fault serves. MANY players are hiding the ball and are challenging the umpires often at the end of the sets. The rumor of the plastic ball makes me worried. We played some tournaments with a plastic ball and that was awful.
DTTW: When, if ever, did you start using speed glue, and in your opinion who was the first to use it? SB: I started speed glue sometime in the beginning of 1980. Tibor Klampar was the first one using it, that is a fact.
DTTW: Why isn't Sweden as powerful as it used to be? It was quite a powerhouse during the Bengtsson era, even more so in the Waldner era. What went wrong? SB: This issue makes me very angry. The wrong people at very important positions for many years has been very bad. Neglected youth education has changed our system. Shame, now it is a long way up again.
DTTW: Which of your contemporaries did you particularly admire during your playing career? SB: As a kid my idols were Ogimura and Chuang Tse Tung. I had the pleasure to be coached by Ogi and to play Chuang. Gou Yao Hua was an awesome player. When he did his last Worlds he wanted to change shirts and spare racket. That was a thrill...
DTTW: Were the loops of players like Surbek, Jonyer and Klampar more powerful than the loopers of today? SB: It is always hard to compare players from different eras but with today's rackets those players would hit some great loops that is for sure.
DTTW: Who had the best serves you faced? (Hsu Shaofa maybe?) SB: Hsu Shaofa had a great serve. Guo Hoa Hua, Li Ching Quang, Waldner and He Zhe Wen all had fantastic serves. To read their serves, no wonder I needed glasses later in my life ha ha.
DTTW: Who was the best lobber you faced? (Alser, Hasegawa, Surbek, Secretin?) SB: It is hard to name one lobber. Their style fit my game pretty good but you sure needed patience to get through them. Appelgren, Alse'r, Hasegawa, Secretin, and Johansson sure could bring back some balls.
DTTW: You are still active in the table tennis community. What would you say is the highlight of your career as a coach thus far? SB: The highlight of my coaching career was the WC in Chiba in '91. Sweden won all three men titles. I had the pleasure to coach JP in all his matches on the way to the final to play JO. I had many great coaching moments but that was the best. Also to have followed some players from young age up to the world level has been fun.
DTTW: How has working with Angie changed your approach to coaching? SB: Angie and I are blessed that we can work together. I don't think that has changed my coaching.
DTTW: Do you adapt your coaching of technique to suit the student or is there one 'best' way for each stroke that you teach? If you do adapt it could you give us one or two examples of how? SB: I always put the player in center of my coaching. I have to look at physical ability/eye hand coordination/movements/touch etc. It also depends of his style of play/age/rubber/racket how I coach them. There are some basics that are important. My task is to bring out the best in every player. I also have to find the player's natural talent and reinforce that. I coach a very good six year old boy. For him I have to give him a good form that fits his body. I am also working a lot on his footwork to give him a solid ground to play on. He can already do 150 balls at Falkenberger without missing... |
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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@zzzuppp Absolutely wonderful!! Thanks!!!
Maybe we can dig up other interviews of other great players during that time? This one was fantastic and pretty much answered all questions. |
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Baal
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Zzzzupp. Awesome. Post more! So many answers to our questions. A thousand thanks.
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ohwell
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Wow! Great read! Keep those coming!
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zzzuppp
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OK, here's another one, an interview from TTTopics, 1986, in two parts.
Shame they can't spell his surname - makes a change from 'Bengsston' anyway, which is what you usually get.
As ever, he comes across as very modest, shrewd - and with a sense of humour. |
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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Marvelous! Thank you very much! |
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richrf
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And Coach Bengtsson's reply! A big thank you to Coach Bengtsson and his wife Angie! Hi Rich, I am sorry for the late reply. Preparing for the US Open, Christmas, the flu and New Year. A lot of things happening. Thank you for the very nice words. It warmed. I will try to answer your questions as good as I can. 1) Growing up in Falkenberg (Sweden) I had the opportunity to watch The Swedish and Japanese National teams practice together. That was very inspiring. Of course Alser and Johansson were already pros. and my idols. In 1969 I got the chance to train in Japan under Mr Ogimura. My parents gave me permission to take one year off from school. We I got back I had improved so much that I got to the semis of the European Championships. The year after I was World Champion. So turn to pro came by it self. So the one year off is still on at 65 years old.... 2) Ichiro Ogimura changed not only my style but also my life. Christer Johansson(Kjell's brother) and my first coaches in Falkenberg Allan Dahlgren and Dick Torstensson. Bo Persson who went with me to train in Japan. 3) I always had good reflexes and being short I needed to be fast on my feet. Training in Japan with the best Japanese players made my bh short. I got power through my body swing. In Japan I also started to develop the short game. No one in Europe seemed to do that at the time. Since we did a lot of 3rd/5th ball attack I started improving my short bh serves with a lot of variation. I became a hybrid of European and Asian styles. In the beginning of the 70th that was new. it became very successful. 4) I was nr 10 on the world ranking going in to the tournament. Still I had never won a men's open. I knew I could beat everyone but to win that came after the 3rd round beating Li Ching Quang.(down 8-14 and 11-16 in the fifth). The training in Japan was my base. A lot of training camps in Sweden. A also started to run a lot to improve my cardio. 5) Kjell was so awesome. Great role model and very good friend, I don't think we ever argued. He had to listen to the music I played (that he didn't like) but never complained. In Sweden we were competing but International we were a solid team. Playing doubles with him was very rewarding. Of course his fh was fast/hard but he had no weaknesses. 6) The rivalry was there but with a lot of respect. To be able to beat these teams you had to be your best. The short game was to prevent them from using their amazing topspins. That made them start to flic the short balls. Against them attack was the best defense. To return their serves became very important. Also the variation of the game. We played with topspin and smash but they used mostly loops. Klampar from Hungary and myself took to ball earlier then the others. 7) The speedglue was invented by Klampar. He would not tell anyone what he did to make his paddle so loud. After some time Surbek(who was good friend with Klampar had the same sound when he hit the ball) Surbek told the Swede Appelgren and the ball was rolling. It was important not to have too hard/dence sponge so the gas of the glue could go into the sponge and rise the rubber. The rubber got faster and spinier. 8) I don't really know. Maybe my love for the game. I also coach a lot side by side instead from the top. I believe in speed, good footwork. Strategy is an important part. I also like to develop the players to become international players. The importance of hard work with quality. 9) Today's players have much better bhs. The game with the poli ball is totally different. Less varied. It is going more and more towards tennis. More physical even if the players are playing fewer matches today. The bh flic has become very important. I think you have to judge each time by itself. Records are beaten in other sports, the development is always going on. 10) I live in San Diego,CA and coach there.There are some talented players that we are working with. My wife (Angie) and I have training camps in the USA. In March we are going back to Salem,OR for another camp. If anyone is interested to host a camp please let us know. Rick, If you have any follow up questions you are welcome. Please change my grammar to make it understandable if there are anything. Take care and say hello to all your blog friends Stellan Bengtsson Edited by richrf - 01/01/2018 at 11:18pm |
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richrf
Gold Member Joined: 06/02/2009 Location: Stamford Status: Offline Points: 1522 |
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Coach Bengtsson is one great person taking the time to answer the questions and Angie was great in facilitating it. |
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ThePongProfessor
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I second the statement that Stellan Bengtson is a great person. I had the opportunity to interact with him during the 2015 US Open (he heard me swearing in Danish playing against one of his players - immediate ice-breaker), and then - much more extensively - during the 2017 summer training camp in Salem, OR. Completely down to earth, highly knowledgeable, kind, generous with his time, funny, and all-around great guy. And Angie likewise.
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Baal
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Most interesting thread in a long time just got better.
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Tinykin
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Absolutely fabulous comments from Stellan.
Thanks, RichRF Edited by Tinykin - 01/02/2018 at 5:15am |
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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After much ado, here they are. Bernhardt vs. Ken Konaka in 1965: Klampar's technique and tactics, by Shen Airu, published in 2 parts in early 1981: Overview of Swedish and Hungarian looping styles, Klampar's career, style, and grip Forehand loop and strong loop Topspin loop and its difference from his strong loop Sidespin loop, backhand close-to-table loop and quick-flick fast-attack technique Serving, 3rd ball, 5th ball Receiving Rallying Shots to crossover, using chops to transition Edited by zeio - 03/03/2018 at 4:54pm |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1223 |
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Such a great thread!
I remember reading through one of my books that credits Guo Yuehua with the Pendulum Serve. I did not recall seeing this serve mentioned on the list Zeio posted on page 3 (I think). Anyway just a inquiry. FdT
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zeio
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Got me there. The modern pendulum serve probably appeared at the WTTC 1965 when service toss was first written in to the law.
BTW, Liu Yucheng is credited for the high-toss serve and his good friend Xu Shaofa used it first on the world stage. Edited by zeio - 03/04/2018 at 12:38am |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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igorponger
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THE SKY TOSS TO AMAZE PEOPLE...
http://def.kondopoga.ru/1180508376-nastolnyy-tennis-diafilm.html High toss service is a happy find by Vladimir Miko, the Chezch pingpong celebrity from the 1960-1970. Xu Shaofa was the first one to demonstrate this service on public, 1973 World Champs Sarajevo. https://www.ittf.com/2018/01/09/vladimir-miko-mainstay-czechoslovakian-success-passes-away/ |
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zeio
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The WTTC 1971 was a significant edition in modern table tennis history. China came back after 5 years of absence, Japan was on its decline, and Europe cracked open the door nearly 2 decades later. Exactly 10 years after the loopdrive made its world debut, Sweden and Hungary saw their two uniquely different styles come to fruition, the speed-based fast-attack plus looping style for the former and the spin-based looping plus fast-attack style, as they are known in China.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Japanese women's volleyball coach Hirobumi Daimatsu(大松博文) is credited for inventing multiball training. In the '60s, Chinese coach Li Rensu(李仁苏) adapted the practice to table tennis training. From the documentary, Sweden first learned about it in their trips to China in the '80s. During their stays there, they also learned the Falkenberg drill. It's hilarious how the stomach flu at the WTTC in New Delhi gave rise to the idea of weight training. Hirobumi Daimatsu Li Rensu Edited by zeio - 03/05/2018 at 8:20am |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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Fulanodetal
Gold Member Joined: 06/28/2013 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1223 |
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OMG that documentary is amazing! (the feat)
FdT
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