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Backhand problems |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Not necessarily. I would say based on USATT ratings the majority of 2000+ level loopers will be using some of it - and they will call it "wrist movement". However better players will understand it better for sure. I too was taught this by my ex provincial player friend. It was a game changer for me because pronation/supination is the most effective way to do a forceful spin of the ball which is especially important in looping awkward balls. With this knowledge, you can loop heavy underspin balls with this mechanism alone without any body usage at all, any additional body usage will simply be directed to increase the quality and power. You no longer have to do a 120% effort loop to overcome incoming spin, you can do it with 20%, 50%, 75%, 100% effort whichever is most comfortable for the situation.
Edited by blahness - 12/23/2022 at 5:36pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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longrange
Member Joined: 04/12/2019 Location: Genova Status: Offline Points: 36 |
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Good day, gentlemen. I was following the discussion and last week I tried to reproduce this "modern backhand".
I'm used to play the "classical" thing on bh: be it chiquita or normal topspin. Being no specialist in biomechanics and googling pictures on the web, I'd characterize the motion as from flexed/ulnary deviated/supinated to extened/radially deviated/supinated, i.e. closed racket from beginning to end and the spin is produced largely by the wrist. So, coincidentally together with this thread I've stumbled upon a japanese video devoted to the topic and at first tried to reproduce the thing from here: after like 10 strokes ...it made absolutely no sense to me. I couldn't even hit the ball (I have the same problem when trying to hit loopy backhand, what my coach calls a "classic european topspin": it's difficult to connect the vertical motion of the racket and the trajectory of the ball: thin brushing contact and all that. I am more comfortable with hitting into the ball through the sponge). Then it clicked to me that the thing can be easier built on top of this technique: Here it's like a flip: mostly pure supination (I guess it is called supination). Now, this is very easy to perform: you wait for the ball and hit it. So, coming back to this "modern" loop technique you hit the ball from below (yes, Yokoyama does not do quite like that but his racket is very open, practically vertical at contact), but unlike in the latter video you don't supinate (pronated to supinated position) and I would characterize the wrist motion as ulnary deviated -> radially deviated, but without extension (flexed->extended), and therefore without this characteristic "leaf" shape of the hand-wrist. This shape is in fact impossible to achieve with this technique: the wrist is locked somehow. The spin is generated largely by the forearm. Now could I notice any profit during just one session? I asked my coach to serve his toughest underspin serve, which normally I have troubles with: using my normal technique with closed racket I can overcome the backspin, but depending on where the ball lands on my side of the table I have to adjust my position at the table — I have to backpedal if the ball lands close to the white line. So, taking this into account I'd say 50% is my success rate vs this service. Using the new technique it was something like 80-90% and I didn't have to adjust my position whatsoever even if the ball landed deep. I must say that before that I tried to copy what I think Harimoto does. At least in my mind it's something in between the two: short stroke, some supination, some wrist, a little forearm—and it was already more stable than the classical wristy backhand. But this exercise helped me articulate the difference in techniques.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Can you find a video that illustrates what you are trying to point out? I can't make sense of your example/experiment.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Okay, I think I understand what you are trying to say. It was the point I made when I said that pronation and supination happen coincidentally on a variety of strokes. So what joint are you looking at when you claim supination is the key? Shoulder? Elbow? Wrist? Or something else?
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Awesome that the shot is working for you. Ultimately that is the most important thing.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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It is the forearm supination (forearm rotating about its own axis)
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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My BH is actually incredibly similar to video no.2 - but against balls I want to add a lot of spin too it will look more like the 1st video. Sometimes against even heavier underspin, you'll even need to finish higher (shoulder height), but the concept is the same - hitting into the ball with an open racket angle rather than trying to brute force brush the ball (classical BH technique)
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Okay. So what is the visible evidence of supination in the backhand on Karaksevic? And what is the evidence of pronation of the forearm on example 1 in the video I shared previously? I can show the visible evidence of wrist deviation on Fan's stroke if anyone wants to check it.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Just imitate the exact hand, elbow position along his trajectory and you'll see that his racket angle is more closed compared to what it should be had he not supinated. Sometimes he doesn't supinate on opening loops and it results in a much less spinny ball which opponents will dump in the net if they don't read it properly.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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If this is the best you can do, we aren't going to agree on this, I can not backhands that show he is not supinating. I also cannot hit forehand one in the video I linked to without supinating. Edited by NextLevel - 12/23/2022 at 11:43pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Ok you can say whatever you want to say and believe whatever you want to believe, it's a public forum.... Like what I said most amateurs have not reached a level where this actually matters.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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Interesting concept of levels.... What's the level needed? Top 100/150 in your country like the UK say or somewhere you can be precise. Ex top 20-50 player with knowledge of playing a number of years or indepth Internet researcher trying to improve to somewhere near that level wanting to share ideas. It's definitely an interesting concept of levels needed to understand.
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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IMHO The level needed to understand concepts is "anyone who is interested" :) . It's just a matter of understanding not of a tt skill. But if you want to test it - then you need to train. Somebody will learn bit faster someone else bit slower. What I could do from my side if anyone interested - to show how I am doing BH from sight of "my eyes" - I mean with GoPro on my head, with and without the ball, slow immitation and after that hits to the balls from robot. It would clearly show all the moments with wrist motions in different planes and arm things :).
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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Good idea definitely
Would be good to see. Cheers
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Imo most amateurs would benefit from not using wrist and building up the knowledge/habit of using the body properly in all shots, and using the correct forearm movements.
Wrist/supination/pronation is like extra icing on the cake once you have those fundamentals.... Hence my statement that most amateurs wouldn't benefit much from this knowledge.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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Blahness-
Imo the effect of what BH grip is used is not really taken into account in your model. The more BH bias in the grip the less supination, and extension for that matter, is required and vise versa. It's more of mild pronate to mild supinate transition. Karakasevic actually has a slight FH bias grip that he does not switch out of when he hits his BH so in order to index his paddle to the right angle to contact the ball he has to index more supination than even an neutral grip would require. In contrast to FZ, which I think the 2nd vid is trying to copy, holds a BH biased grip on his BH but switches to neutral/mild FH biased grip on the FH, when he has time to switch. His BH has less supination and more of a short sharp pro/sup- flex/extend. Also, imo, the open paddle after ball contact(pronated end position) is more of reflexive habitual movement that facilitates a faster FH transition. I think of that follow through as more of a FZ quirk than a trained technique to be copied. It certainly could be a thing going forward though but for different reasons. Most amateurs default/ed to a neutral grip so you get more supination. Also most older players started with neutral grip. Most younger players are going to some degree of BH biased. I'm manly referring to Jr's who are in some kind of development system as opposed to random. They are doing this either because of their coaching, observation of the top players or, more likely, a combination of both. So I think what you perceiving is correct in that there is less supination in the modern BH but I think the ultimate cause is the gradual increased use of the BH biased grip which then requires less supination and more forearm extension. Anybody reading this can just go and conduct your own experiment. Start in the Karakasevic grip, then go to neutral and then go to say TH level BH bias and see how it effects your wrist and arm movements. Clear example of neutral grip vs BH biaed grip- |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I wouldn't say Falck uses more supination than Harimoto, they both use it extensively. I think it's not just BH or FH biased grip, but also the depth of the grip - Harimoto definitely grips the racket much further up the handle compared to Falck who has a very loose grip. Falck also uses a lot of wrist extension/flexion (you can see the racket pointing more right compared to the hand instead of staying to the left of the hand) which is generally not the way the modern BH is played because it can hurt the wrist and the recovery time is slower (Falck can do this because he's tall af and he stands a lot farther away from the table). You can see clearly in Lin Yun Ju, Harimoto and most of the CNT that the racket never goes to the right of the hand in BH strokes - the hand is always rotated more than the racket relative to the body, meaning the wrist never goes into extension. It is intentional by design (Lin Yun Ju's coach Sun Hao Hong talked quite a bit about this) to promote more explosiveness - more wrist movement doesn't necessarily mean more spin, the ball only cares about the kind of contact you give it. Excessive wrist movement will cause more instability in the stroke and the power flowing from the body can get lost more easily. See comparison images here on the followthrough: Falck: Lin Yun Ju: Edited by blahness - 02/15/2023 at 6:47pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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