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Heavy Bottom spin opponent. |
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keven702
Super Member Joined: 07/01/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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I see merits in both argument. But I would have to go for Rack's advice. I think PONG's advice would have been good a few months earlier and would have saved me some time in learning , but I have advanced past that stage of not know what angle I put my bat (of course there are times I'm uncertain but I would say most of the time I know). And I've heard about using your legs in lifting up the ball from many sources but I didn't think it was such a vital part for lifting the bottomspin ball
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PONGTARDED
Beginner Joined: 10/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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I guarantee you that incorpating a more full body stroke will not alone solve your problem. The basic concept of looping backspin is that you aim the ball high with paddle angle to get it over the net. If you have provided insufficient topspin, the ball will go long (unless the ball is above the net, in which case you can just hit.). But if the problem is insufficent topspin, your balls should go long with some frequency. You can tell us, do your shots have much arc? This is all the full body stroke will provide you. You must still angle the bat correctly. You do not "lift the ball". I challenge anyone to show me a youtube video where the ball leaves that bat at a significantly different height than the initial contact point. This simply does not happen and the term "lift" misleading suggests that it does. What you do provide is the upward vector, which is most certainly a function of paddle angle. So you angle the ball above the net, and topspin pulls it back down. There are two possiblities: 1. His shots have sufficient arc, and he is holding the bat at the wrong angle so the ball goes into the net nearly every time. 2. He does not have sufficient arc to loop heavy backspin balls. In this case, I suggest that he is not ready to attempt looping heavy backspin balls. He needs to take balls off the top of the bounce and hit them with modest topspin and give the loop time to develop. [I can see where the term "lift" developed. As when your bat is angled up, you give it more of an upward vector by moving the bat upward more quickly. Still, lift is a misleading term. Like this other thread, http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31437&KW= , you can justify your explanations with complicated semantic arguments, but the truth is that "lift" is a misleading description that we would be better off without] |
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PONGTARDED
Beginner Joined: 10/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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I should also add the obvious which is that you can generate arc with gravity regardless of spin. The slow loop requires less topspin. There is some degree of continuum between topspin lob and slow loop. Slow loop is an option (not one that I would recommend, as these are not powerful shots). The point again is that spin does not get it over the net. Along the continuum from lob, to slow loop, to fast loop, to loop drive, the essential part is that the ball leave your paddle with a trajectory which allows it to clear the net. Obviously this trajectory is a function of several factors, but the most fundamental and easily adjusted factor is paddle angle.
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BirfeFuFAA&feature=related... ball leaving the blade MUCH higher than his contact point then arcing back down. Just a simple high arc loop vs underspin. And look at his blade... is it open facing upwards? Nope...
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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PONGTARDED
Beginner Joined: 10/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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I slowed this video down, it clearly leaves at the same height as the initial impact. But it leaves with a strong upward vector and he is following through after the ball has left the rubber. So it appears that it is not just your explanation and semantics that are off; you clearly do not understand the basic mechanisms of what is happening here. Come on guys. Quit pretending that you know what you are talking about. I dont doubt that you can play, but dont try explaining that which you dont understand. There is far too much misinformation floating around. I am going to step out of this argument now that this lack of understanding has been irrevocably exposed. I will leave it to other knowledgeable members to confirm the fact that the balls leaves the blade at approximately the height of impact. |
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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LOL... answer this. Is his blade open and facing upwards as you say to get that vector? You say we're all using stupid complicated explainations when we say to use your body. Now you're coming in with upward vectors and stuff. Now who's getting complicated? I don't know one coach who tells his student to... oh use an upward VECTOR to return a underspin ball. Try explaining that to a little kid who doesn't even know what a vector is.
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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PONGTARDED
Beginner Joined: 10/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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A side view would be more appropriate for judging both when the ball leaves the rubber and the blade angle.
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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LOL you can clearly see his blade angle is not pointing upwards as you say. Stop trying to sidestep the question. First you say you slowed it down and you can see it left at the same height (when you clearly see the ball arcing much higher). Now you say you need a side view to confirm? Clearly a contradiction there.
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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PONGTARDED
Beginner Joined: 10/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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Thinking in vectors is the easiest and simplest way to understand the game. Yes, it requires an 8th grade understanding of physics, but I think we can all manage that.
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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LOL omg. You think a normal 8th grader would know physics and vectors? Really? Name me one coach that explains table tennis strokes in vectors because I've seen and met a ton and I've sure as hell never seen one. I've seen them say bend down and use your legs. You mention vectors to a lil kid and they'll respond with a puzzle face of WTF are you talking about. And you saying "comeon guys... quit acting like you know what you're talking about..."
Like I said... open invitation to you to come to our club or post a video proving your point. I'll put one of the lil kids in front of you... you try to explain underspin in terms of vectors or teach someone to lob balls to deal with underspin or with no motion , return a push heavy push with all the coaches watching you. You seem to think they're all fools so lets see if you can do better than all of the coaches here.
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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keven702
Super Member Joined: 07/01/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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Like you said before the ball is not leaving the bat upwards motion it is flying straight. If his bat was open the ball would leave upwards not straight. And plus opening the bat face is not practical and a lob will just allow the opponent to smash it.
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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Now heres a challenge for you Pong... now you show us one youtube video of one top 10 pro... looping a normal underspin push with a open bladeface pointing upwards as a PRACTICAL shot in a match that results in a low arching loop and not a completely high lob shot which is suitable for a player to learn as his primary way of dealing with underspin.
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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Thaidog
Gold Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1661 |
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I'm not about to step in to this looping against underspin holy-war but I will point out a nice side on video of Kenji
Matsudaira looping against underspin:
http://www.alphatabletennis.com/clips/10-08.html Good slow motion video :) |
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Timo ALC FL
Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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Nice Vid Thai... another great display of someone not use a open bladeface pointing upwards. He uses a 90 degree blade face with with his stroke going upwards due to it being Japanese rubber. Some of his drives even use a closed 60 degreeish bladeface... again nothing of the sort that Pong is suggesting with a bladeface facing upwards and lobbing it back.
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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ZingyDNA
Platinum Member Joined: 09/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 2373 |
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I'm pretty sure you can loop backspin with a blade angle more open than 90 degrees? It's just that we don't do it because we don't play against backspin that heavy... |
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PONGTARDED
Beginner Joined: 10/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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None of these things factors are independent of the rest. If you hit it harder (ball above of net), you need the bat angled more downward as the backspin induced downward vector is made insignificant by the much larger forward vector. And for looping a ball far below the table you are going to angle upward, often even against topspin. But the truth is that regardless of how weak the topspin or slow the hit, you could have avoided the net with the appropriate angle. And you 100% do not "lift the ball" to get it over the net. |
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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Sure you can... against very very heavy backspin from say longpips. But yeah like you said... its not the "normal" shot you would perform against normal backspin unless you're trying to perform some safety shot or you misjudged. I actually suggested that shot but only for safety situations. Pong is suggesting thats the primary shot that should be performed against all underspin calling people who disagree fools.
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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PONGTARDED
Beginner Joined: 10/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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I actually prefer (as most do) to take the ball while it is above the net and use an approximately 90 angle. My point of contention is the misconception that the loop stroke has 1000 times more dwell than it really has, to the extent that you can lift the ball up a few inches during the contact. This does not happen. I was discussing an upward bat angle in response to the notion of "lift", as this is obviously only needed for balls below net height. Anyway, I apologize for the confrontational manner of posts. |
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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Even if the ball is above the net... with H3 you can hit it at 90 degrees and still get it in. If the ball is under the table, if using H3, you can use the dwell time of the tacky topsheet to carry it back up using your wrist also at 90 degrees. If advanced enough, you can even carry it back up with a closed blade... my coach can do it no problem. And yes, in that case you are lifting it back up. How else would the ball get over the net if you don't lift it up using a 90 degree angle. It doesn't magically make it over. You grip the ball in the sponge and spin it back up and over with your wrist using the combo of sponge and topsheet to carry it where you want to go. Of course the shot will be weak since its a safety... but just telling you that no you don't have to open your blade face up and shovel it back using a lob. Even Ma Lin has done this plenty of times when he's out of position.
But still... I still would love for you to prove your point with a video of someone using a open upwards facing blade as a primary shot vs underspin.
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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PONGTARDED
Beginner Joined: 10/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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I think that we have clarified that this is the point of disagreement. I do not believe that this phenomena exists to a significant extent. How many inches do you believe that you can lift the ball during the dwell? I claim that we return balls that are below net height by utilizing an arc-like trajectory, not by first lifting the ball and then allowing it to shot off from a position above the net. I am too lazy to gather photographic evidence. I will either let you win this argument or wait for others to back me up. |
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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Heres another example. Watch 3:53 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUyxOMwTbPI. Ball goes below the table... Wang Hao lifts and spins it back up and open WITHOUT a open upwards facing blade.
You're advocating that you should be using a open upwards facing blade face to arc the ball over as a primary shot. I'm saying you dont.
So you challenge other people to gather you evidence but you won't do it yourself... right...
You shouldn't go around calling people fools claiming no one understands but you when you can't even come up with evidence of what you claim. All words... no action.
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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PONGTARDED
Beginner Joined: 10/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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I am done arguing, but will continue to respond when you put words in my mouth that I never said. I said that when the ball goes into the net, that it would not have went into the net if the bat had been angled differently. A beginner cant suddenly use perfect loops with godly amounts of topspin. But he can angle his bat differently and immediately every ball will no longer be going into the net. And even once you become a great player, you will often be out of position and forced to return the ball with less than godly amounts of topspin, and you need that more fundamental skill of angling the bat correctly to pull off your improvised return. I tried briefly to disprove the concept of lift with photographs but found that the videos posted on youtube were not produced with the appropriate frame rate and camera angles for such use. Furthermore, the event is not all that common (loop from below the table) because this is a weaker shot than attacking the ball while it is high. I feel that my arguments are simple and quite obviously true to the extent that I feel little reason to provide further evidence. Apparently these ideas are not simple and obvious for those who feel that the concept of vectors is complicated. |
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Fruit loop
Silver Member Joined: 05/14/2009 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 605 |
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I'm 99% sure that the amount of spin that would require is not possible with a 40mm ball. I don't think i would ever have looped a ball past an 80 degree angle. (against long pimple chopper, back and forth.) I have a quite spinny loop. |
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Timo Boll Spirit FL
Dr Evil ox both sides. |
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keven702
Super Member Joined: 07/01/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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Can we not assume I'm a beginner and just tell me how YOU would approach a underspin ball? I find PONG's technique simple and obvious. Of course I am able to return the ball over the net but I am looking for more formidable return in which it would be hard for my opponent to return. You are basically saying any shot can be avoided from put into the net, which of course is obvious. But you make it seem as though the only way to put it over is with a open bat, which simply isn't true. There are a NUMEROUS factors and bat angles that would allow you to put the ball over the net but we don't mention them. I can say 'Hit the ball with the handle of your bat and make it over' but that doesn't make it practical or a good shot.
There are only a few ways that you can return the ball and put your opponent out of position. In almost every sport , you always want to put your opponent out of position so you can win the point (Just alittle pointer if you didn't already know.) You may know vectors but it seem as though you do not know strategy. Which seems quite simple and obvious... to me anyways |
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Thaidog
Gold Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1661 |
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Ok so if you want him out of position simple:
Wait for a reasonable short push and go for it as if you're going to push the ball but hit a hard flip with lots of speed. Viola - opponent out of position. Wang Liqin does this type of stroke very well. |
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Timo ALC FL
Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
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keven702
Super Member Joined: 07/01/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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Hey sorry I meant when his serves and pushes are long. Sorry I just notice I forgot to on my first post
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keven702
Super Member Joined: 07/01/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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Yeah its very possible. I didn't think it was either until I was watching ex Provincial players just wailing away. Its amazing. Opened my eyes of whats possible. I'll try to get the video of it... I think someone was recording that day.
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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Thaidog
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Same thing. |
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Timo ALC FL
Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
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Rack
Gold Member Joined: 07/13/2008 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1122 |
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Ok enough of Pong... useless...
Keven,
It's very difficult to get the other player outta position off of a long spinny heavy underspin serve unless your looping is really high level and you can aggressively loop his serve at a high clip. You can probably pull off just a basic opening loop off of the serve but you gotta prepare to counter cause it'll just start the rally. If you feel thats a low percentage shot for you... just push it back and make him open and you prepare to counter him. Or if he doesn't feel comfortable in opening off of your push... thats your chance to open. Just remember to begin gettin into position once you see him even remotely starting to come in for push.
If you're comfortable with looping his serve or push... you can keep him guessing by either going cross or down the line if thats within your ability but remember to take a peek of where he is first and place accordingly to take the initiative.
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Yasaka Ma Lin YEO (1st) , Yasaka Extra CPEN (2nd)
FH - H3 NEO Pro 2.15 40H BH - Tenergy 64 2.1 |
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